A Muslim majority Indus Valley Civilization?

[FullMetalJacket]

Indian do not steal your history. Indians are associated with the historical event that happened long back at land which is present day Pakistan. The association can be seen as the continuation of custom, rituals and religious way.

Theoretically Pakistanis should also be proud of their history but for some reason, they do not want themselves to be associated with it. Its up-to Pakistani to hold or let go their History. No one can steal your history. Its up to you to be proud of your hindu/buddhist past, just like Indonesian are proud of their Hindus past and Iranian proud of their Persian past. No one can force you in this.

That gentleman is talking about his great turk/persian/arab/egyptian/ history that we yindoos are stealing.

 

[pk_baloch]

Can you tell me what religion Balochs followed before converting to Islam.

baloch people date their roots back to the syria tribes but its really mix of so many races but it is assumed that some or few of them were hindus.......chaman is named after chaman daas a hindu its border town along afghanistan .....but our majority of ancestory were not hindu....

 

[Joe Shearer]

baloch people date their roots back to the syria tribes but its really mix of so many races but it is assumed that some or few of them were hindus.......chaman is named after chaman daas a hindu its border town along afghanistan .....but our majority of ancestory were not hindu....

That is a strange assertion: "whatever we were, we were not Hindu." Are you scared of something?

Were you Zoroastrian, then?

 

[The SC]

And it was called Israel than!? where are the international scientific tests on the teeth ? the article is obviously fake.
It is still on Arab Land, people like it or not.
Are you using logic in your reasoning or what.
The Eber you mention is 'ibr from 'Ibria in Arabic which means the language of the Jews, while 'Arabbia is the language of the Arabs.
If you believe in Semitism and Indo-European races and languages, you should revise your history lessons with a critical mind on your own not just repeat what some 19 th century backward thinking Europeans came up with.
All humans have originated in Africa, see Lucie's scull.

Here is another scientific article
Half of all Europeans 'may have Arab genes

Half of all Europeans 'may have Arab genes' - Telegraph


Could the World All Be Genetically Arab, Says New DNA Evidence

This would mean that most non-Africans in the world today are descended from those pioneers who made their home in what are now Arab lands.

That view is supported by a research paper released in an American journal last month.

In it, an international team of scientists explains how they used sophisticated genetic analysis techniques to come up with new evidence supporting the view that Arabia was indeed the first place where our migrating ancestors settled.

According to one of the academics involved in the study, it is likely that they passed along the southern coast of the peninsula before crossing into the territory that today makes up the UAE.

Professor Martin Richards of the University of Leeds said: "The timing and pattern of the migration of early modern humans has been a source of much debate and research.

"Our new results suggest that Arabia, rather than North Africa or the Near East, was the first staging post in the spread of modern humans around the world."

http://www.albawaba.com/editorchoice/arabia-could-be-home-humanitys-ancient-origins-dna-evidence-shows-412247

I will add another evidence to the second theory about the migration and show its correctness from previous studies of mine:
The Amazight or Berbers (Al Barbar) -as they are called- of North Africa have their origin in a place called Amazigh found in modern day Yemen, an Arab land again.

 

[pk_baloch]

That is a strange assertion: "whatever we were, we were not Hindu." Are you scared of something?

Were you Zoroastrian, then?

bro we balochs were the decendant of hazrat ameer hamza (uncle of hazrat muhammad S.A.W)AND SOME querashis baloch were the decendant of hazrat abrahim.........there are many arab baloch too ,,like al balochi ,albouchii etc.... hazrat ameer hamza may have some other religion before islam but was not hindusium......and scared of what??? i didnot undrstand ur point.........

 

[pk_baloch]

before islam some religions were also similar to hindusim but had different names .......

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

And it was called Israel than!? where are the international scientific tests on the teeth ? the article is obviously fake.
It is still on Arab Land, people like it or not.
Are you using logic in your reasoning or what.

What exactly do you consider Arab land? Arabia is Arab land, the rest of it is Semitic land. The Hebrews lived there after the Canaanites meaning that they do have affiliation with that land. That article is authentic, similar news was reported here:

Oldest human remains unearthed in Israel? - Technology & science - Science - msnbc.com

The Eber you mention is 'ibr from 'Ibria in Arabic which means the language of the Jews, while 'Arabbia is the language of the Arabs.
If you believe in Semitism and Indo-European races and languages, you should revise your history lessons with a critical mind on your own not just repeat what some 19 th century backward thinking Europeans came up with.
All humans have originated in Africa, see Lucie's scull.

I have not repeated anything 19th century Europeans came up with, most of the current research on genetics & human origins is being done by Europeans or people of European origins as well.

Both the words "Arab" & "Hebrew" originate from the name of the ancestor called "Eber". He was the great grandson of Shem bin Noah.

If you believe that Indo-Europeans are Arabs, then how do you explain the existence & evolution of the Indo-European & Semitic languages starting from Proto-Indo-European & Proto-Semitic. Remember that sister languages originate among populations with common origins. The most well know example of which is Arabic & Hebrew. The fact is that Arabs are a language, not a race, thus there can be no Arab gene. There are however Semitic genes common among the populations of the Middle East & some parts of North Africa due to ancient Phoenician migration.

What is your view on Adam & Eve, were they Africans too? Where did Noah (the second Adam) live? How do you relate the out of Africa theory with Islam? Seeing as from the Islamic point of view both Adam & Noah lived in what is basically the Middle East. Do you deny the existence of Shem, Ham, & Japheth even though Islamic literature makes mention of them?

Here is another scientific article
Half of all Europeans 'may have Arab genes

Half of all Europeans 'may have Arab genes' - Telegraph


Could the World All Be Genetically Arab, Says New DNA Evidence

This would mean that most non-Africans in the world today are descended from those pioneers who made their home in what are now Arab lands.

That view is supported by a research paper released in an American journal last month.

In it, an international team of scientists explains how they used sophisticated genetic analysis techniques to come up with new evidence supporting the view that Arabia was indeed the first place where our migrating ancestors settled.

According to one of the academics involved in the study, it is likely that they passed along the southern coast of the peninsula before crossing into the territory that today makes up the UAE.

Professor Martin Richards of the University of Leeds said: "The timing and pattern of the migration of early modern humans has been a source of much debate and research.

"Our new results suggest that Arabia, rather than North Africa or the Near East, was the first staging post in the spread of modern humans around the world."

Could the World All Be Genetically Arab, Says New DNA Evidence | Al Bawaba

Once again the article refers to migratory patterns, it's true that many ancient populations lived in the Middle East before expanding to other parts of the world. This does not imply that we are related in any way to modern days Arabs of Arabia. However, since most of the races of the world today are mixed, there will naturally be some similarities between different populations.

Here is a map of Aryan migrations, you will notice that even they migrated from what is technically the Middle East, but that does not mean they are Arabs.

Aryan – Aryans – All about Indo-aryans, their history to present day​

I will add another evidence to the second theory about the migration and show its correctness from previous studies of mine:
The Amazight or Berbers (Al Barbar) -as they are called- of North Africa have their origin in a place called Amazigh found in modern day Yemen, an Arab land again.

You are desperately trying to link the entire world to Arabs, but according to your own views, Arabs are just misplaced Africans. Are you suggesting that Berbers are people that migrated out of Africa to Arabia & then ran back to Africa again? The Berbers are people indigenous to North Africa, they are not a homogeneous group. However, during the era of the Arab Islamic caliphates, many Arabs migrated to North Africa & settled with & assimilated with the Berbers.

You can read more about the Berbers below. I know this is a Wikipedia article, but there are references present at the end of the article for anyone that desires further research.

Berber people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Berbers (Berber: ⵉⵎⴰⵣⵉⵖⴻⵏ Imazighen / Imaziɣen) are the indigenous ethnic group of North Africa west of the Nile Valley. They are continuously distributed from the Atlantic to the Siwa oasis, in Egypt, and from the Mediterranean to the Niger River. Historically they spoke the Berber language or varieties of it, which together form a branch of the Afro-Asiatic linguistic family. Today, varieties of Maghrebi colloquial Arabic are spoken by a large portion of Berbers besides the Berber language itself. Foreign languages like French are used by the educated in Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria. Spanish is also known by some Berbers in Morocco and in the annexed Western Sahara and Italian in Libya. This presence of European languages was due to Europe's occupation and colonization of the Berber world. Today, most Berber-speaking people live in Morocco and Algeria, smaller Berber-speaking populations are scattered throughout Tunisia, Libya, Mauritania, Mali and Niger, as well as various diasporas living in Europe.[1][2]

The presence of the Arabic language and dialects is due to the spread of Islam and to the immigration of some Arab tribes to the region centuries ago. A Berber is not necessarily only someone who happens to speak Berber. The Berber identity is usually wider than language and ethnicity, and encompasses the entire history and geography of North Africa. Berbers are not a homogeneous ethnic group and they encompass a range of phenotypes, cultures and ancestries. The one unifying force is the Berber language, Berber land, and an identification with the Berber heritage and history.

**********​

The link below discusses Pakistani genetics for all the members on this thread that happen to be confused about their identity.

GENETIC DIVERSITY IN PAKISTANI POPULATIONS

Abstract

The human leukocyte antigen (HLA) system, present on chromosome 6 is one of the most extensively studied regions of the human genome. The most striking feature of the HLA system is the extreme polymorphism found at some of its loci. This characteristic of the HLA system has made it an invaluable tool for population genetics analyses. Different populations exhibit characteristic allele and haplotype frequencies, which provide information about their history, migration patterns, evolution, genetics, disease susceptibility and resistance. In this study the genetic polymorphism of seven Pakistani ethnic groups was investigated at the HLA-A, -B, -C, -DRB and DQB1 loci using polymerase chain reaction with sequence specific primers (PCR-SSP).

The groups included in this study are the Baloch, Brahui, Sindhi and Parsi from the south and the Burusho, Kalash and Pathan from the north of Pakistan. The allele frequencies, three-locus haplotype frequencies for HLA-A, -C, -B and HLA-A, -B, -DRBl and two locus haplotype frequencies for HLA-A, -B, HLA-B, -C, HLA-B, -DRBl and HLA-DRBl, -DQBl along with linkage disequilibrium, relative linkage disequilibrium and their significance (p-value as determined by -l-test) were calculated. Neighbor joining trees based on allele frequencies were constructed and correspondence analysis was carried out. Variation in the allele and haplotype distribution between the seven Pakistani ethnic groups was observed. A phylogenetic tree and correspondence analysis based on HLA- A, -B, -C, -DRBl and -DQBl allele frequencies revealed the Kalash and Parsi populations to be distinct from each other and the remaining Pakistani populations.

The Baloch and Brahui were closely related to one another. The Sindhi were closer to the Pathan and Burusho populations than to the neighboring Baloch and Brahui populations indicating admixture between the northern and southern populations of Pakistan. The three- and two- locus haplotypes reveal a large amount of admixture in the Pakistani populations. The haplotypes found in the Pakistani populations suggest an influence of Caucasian and Oriental populations.

A phylogenetic tree and correspondence analysis comparing the Pakistani populations to various other world populations (HLA- A, -B and -C allele frequency data from the 11th and 12th International Histocompatibility Workshops) showed that the Pakistani ethnic groups, with the exception of the Parsi, lie within the cluster of the European and Asian Indian populations. The Parsi populations show a striking affinity to the Iraqi Jews, which is in accordance with historical records placing the origin of the Parsi in ancient Persia. These results not only help in studying the origins of the various Pakistani populations but also provide a background for a variety of applications including tissue typing and HLA and disease association studies in Pakistan.

bro we balochs were the decendant of hazrat ameer hamza (uncle of hazrat muhammad S.A.W)AND SOME querashis baloch were the decendant of hazrat abrahim.........there are many arab baloch too ,,like al balochi ,albouchii etc.... hazrat ameer hamza may have some other religion before islam but was not hindusium......and scared of what??? i didnot undrstand ur point.........

Can you provide any proof of these claims? As far as I know the Arab word "Al Balochi" is used for Arabs of Balochi descent. Refer to the link I gave regarding the genetic diversity in the Pakistani population.

Here is another link for you to refer too:

Baloch people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Keep in mind that many people in Pakistan have falsely attempted to link their family trees & origins to Arabs or to Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him). The purpose of which is to differentiate themselves from their pagan past probably because they feel ashamed of their pre-Islamic history.

 

[Joe Shearer]

bro we balochs were the decendant of hazrat ameer hamza (uncle of hazrat muhammad S.A.W)AND SOME querashis baloch were the decendant of hazrat abrahim.........there are many arab baloch too ,,like al balochi ,albouchii etc.... hazrat ameer hamza may have some other religion before islam but was not hindusium......and scared of what??? i didnot undrstand ur point.........

This is hardly historical; it has as much value as accounts of the descent of some family or sept in India having descended from some obscure god or the other; or the value of the Japanese Imperial family claiming descent From the goddess Amaterasu. Such legends and myths are not worth discussion since they are based on faith and on family trees of doubtful value.

It is even more of a strain on credibility to hear that on account of this mythical descent from Abu Hamza, we are now suddenly discussing the pre-Islamic faith of Abu Hamza!

That was known to be Semitic polytheism, and there is no great mystery about it. But Semitic polytheism also has nothing to do with the Baloch who inhabited these lands earlier than the seventh century, unless it is your case that they were all massacred, transported away as slaves of the conquerors, or fled. The inhabitants of these lands all had the same belief and culture as the rest of the sub-continent, unless there is evidence to prove otherwise, which is why I asked if you thought that their religion was the Zoroastrian one. Apparently we were talking so far apart that this did not even register with you.

before islam some religions were also similar to hindusim but had different names .......

We are not talking about airy-fairy general notions, but specifically about the Baloch - or their predecessors, if you believe that the present-day Baloch have nothing to do with the earlier inhabitants.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The link below discusses Pakistani genetics for all the members on this thread that happen to be confused about their identity.

GENETIC DIVERSITY IN PAKISTANI POPULATIONS





Can you provide any proof of these claims? As far as I know the Arab word "Al Balochi" is used for Arabs of Balochi descent. Refer to the link I gave regarding the genetic diversity in the Pakistani population.

Here is another link for you to refer too:

Baloch people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Keep in mind that many people in Pakistan have falsely attempted to link their family trees & origins to Arabs or to Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him). The purpose of which is to differentiate themselves from their pagan past probably because they feel ashamed of their pre-Islamic history.

Thank you for an excellent exposition of the genetic patterns of the population in Pakistan. It bore out some of my other readings but was instructive in its attention to detail and dependence on significant samplings.

Your continued insistence on Shem, Ham and Japhet as historical characters continues to distress me, however. Would you be willing to give it up for some small inducement? A year's subscription to TIME magazine, for instance. Something that a poor man can afford to offer, at any rate.

 

[INDIC]

bro we balochs were the decendant of hazrat ameer hamza (uncle of hazrat muhammad S.A.W)AND SOME querashis baloch were the decendant of hazrat abrahim.........there are many arab baloch too ,,like al balochi ,albouchii etc.... hazrat ameer hamza may have some other religion before islam but was not hindusium......and scared of what??? i didnot undrstand ur point.........

I read that Baloch migrated to present day Pakistan from Syria 5000years ago, are you sure about your comments.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

Thank you for an excellent exposition of the genetic patterns of the population in Pakistan. It bore out some of my other readings but was instructive in its attention to detail and dependence on significant samplings.

Your continued insistence on Shem, Ham and Japhet as historical characters continues to distress me, however. Would you be willing to give it up for some small inducement? A year's subscription to TIME magazine, for instance. Something that a poor man can afford to offer, at any rate.

Lol, I don't accept bribes. Shem, Ham, & Japheth are figures known to us through religion. Since you aren't following an Abrahamic religion, I will try & discuss human origins with you without bringing them up. For now though just ignore the parts relating to Shem, Ham, & Japheth.

I had to bring up Shem, Ham, & Japheth while discussing Arab origins for example because the Prophet's ancestor after Noah is Shem. Apart from that "Eber" from who both the words Arab & Hebrew arose from is the great grandson of Shem according to the table of nations.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Lol, I don't accept bribes. Shem, Ham, & Japheth are figures known to us through religion. Since you aren't following an Abrahamic religion, I will try & discuss human origins with you without bringing them up. For now though just ignore the parts relating to Shem, Ham, & Japheth.

I had to bring up Shem, Ham, & Japheth while discussing Arab origins for example because the Prophet's ancestor after Noah is Shem. Apart from that "Eber" from who both the words Arab & Hebrew arose from is the great grandson of Shem according to the table of nations.

Well, at least nobody can say I didn't put in a bid: one circumscribed by genteel poverty, sadly, but a bid nevertheless.

I do understand your references, as the Bible was a book I had been very familiar with in earlier days. May I point out that some of those who have contributed to a scientific foundation for genetics and for paleontology in general are practising Christians, Jews and Muslims (not in any particular order). It is no longer necessary to believe in the literal truth of these revealed scriptures to be an honest practitioner of an Abrahamic faith. Perhaps you are yielding excessive ground to the unconverted.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

Well, at least nobody can say I didn't put in a bid: one circumscribed by genteel poverty, sadly, but a bid nevertheless.

I do understand your references, as the Bible was a book I had been very familiar with in earlier days. May I point out that some of those who have contributed to a scientific foundation for genetics and for paleontology in general are practising Christians, Jews and Muslims (not in any particular order). It is no longer necessary to believe in the literal truth of these revealed scriptures to be an honest practitioner of an Abrahamic faith. Perhaps you are yielding excessive ground to the unconverted.

Lol, are you saying I am giving out unnecessary details about Islamic religious beliefs? Unfortunately, I can not agree with you about it no longer being necessary to literally believe in the stories of the prophets. Islam requires an individual to believe in the stories of the prophets, for example; Muslims literally believe that Moses (Peace be upon him) parted the Red Sea & that Jesus (Peace be upon him really did bring the dead back to life. Some Christians on the other hand believe that the stories in the scriptures are aimed at only teaching lessons on morality.

The stories of the Israelites & to an extent the Ishmaelites as well are intertwined in religion. This makes it hard to not be forced to make references to the scriptures. For example, King Solomon was both the King of Israel & a prophet at the same time, so while discussing him, some reference to his legends & powers may come up in the discussion.

Since the subject of the Ishmaelites & Israelites has been brought in to the discussion, what is everyone's opinion on the legend of the lost tribes of Israel? Did they really settle down among the Pathans & the Kashmiris? I consider it to be a myth due to the absence of reliable genetic evidence, but I have met people both in real life & on this forum that believe in it literally.

 

[jatt+gutts]

some pakistanis do look like arabs. i have mistaken some of them being arabs when i saw them wearing those long gowns and head scarves. i was surprised when they spoke urdu.

but pakistanis dont wanna accept their past because they are ashamed of their ancestors being hindus and are sons of converts. just like in india being muslim means something low. its because of the conditoning of minds since young age. muslims and hindus can never respect and live in harmony. wheather believe it or not

 

[Joe Shearer]

Lol, are you saying I am giving out unnecessary details about Islamic religious beliefs?

Heh, heh. No, nothing quite so risible. Just to say that you are giving up points and operating under the shadow of those to your right, who still remain literalists with no one to oppose their being primitive.

Unfortunately, I can not agree with you about it no longer being necessary to literally believe in the stories of the prophets. Islam requires an individual to believe in the stories of the prophets, for example; Muslims literally believe that Moses (Peace be upon him) parted the Red Sea & that Jesus (Peace be upon him really did bring the dead back to life. Some Christians on the other hand believe that the stories in the scriptures are aimed at only teaching lessons on morality.

The stories of the Israelites & to an extent the Ishmaelites as well are intertwined in religion. This makes it hard to not be forced to make references to the scriptures. For example, King Solomon was both the King of Israel & a prophet at the same time, so while discussing him, some reference to his legends & powers may come up in the discussion.

Since the subject of the Ishmaelites & Israelites has been brought in to the discussion, what is everyone's opinion on the legend of the lost tribes of Israel? Did they really settle down among the Pathans[p/URL] & the [URL="http://moshiach.com/tribes/kashmir.html"]Kashmiris? I consider it to be a myth due to the absence of reliable genetic evidence, but I have met people both in real life & on this forum that believe in it literally.