A layman's analysis on our last two MMRCA contenders

[rockstarIN]

Rafale with all 14 hardpoints can carry 6 AAMs as well, with the difference that the MICAs can all be used in BVR and WVR!

Sancho,

MICA BVR & MICA heat seeking is not the same missile, both are different versions though the name is same right?

 

[sancho]

Sancho,

MICA BVR & MICA heat seeking is not the same missile, both are different versions though the name is same right?

No, that's they are the same missile, just with different seekers, that's what makes MICA so special and different from other missiles, because the EM (active seeker) version has the same TVC features like the IR (passive seeker), what makes it as maneuverable in close combats like any other IR missile.
On the other side, the MICA IR has the same frame as the MICA EM, which gives it the same BVR range as well. So a Rafale can use MICA EM and IR in BVR, just like it can use both in WVR, if needed even at the same time! He can fire an EM and an IR at the same target in BVR, which forces the enemy to counter 2 different types of seekers at the same time (chaff, flares, jamming...).
Imo, a MICA IR and METEOR combo would be even hardy to counter, since the Rafale could use the MICA at first and completelly passive and fire the METOR later, but with the Ramjet propulsion, both could hit the target at the same time and give him no chance.

EF doesn't have this kind of BVR options, since it can only cue missiles with it's active radar so far and has "only" the METEOR as a missile for BVR ranges and "only" 2 x Iris-T/ASRAAM for close combats, while Rafale has more alternatives here as well.
EF has longer radar range (with the fully developed AESA), might be slightly faster and has slighter higher TWR, but Rafale isn't bad in A2A at all, especially the version that is offered in MMRCA. As I always say, it is much closer to EF in A2A than most people thinks/knows, but also way ahead of the EF in A2G!


MICA EM/IR seekers:

MICA EM:

MICA IR:

 

[DrSomnath999]

Even I think that the Captor - E might be the better radar when it will be available, but we can say that only when it is ready and real specs are available
Captor E, possibly higher potential but not even available as a demo version for testing (imo a reason to reject the EF from the shortlisting), risks of delays are high, we have to fund parts of it and IAF will get a fully capable and mature version only by the end of the decade.

You have to distinguish the facts mate!

well i had said the same thing before buddy e captor is indeed a better radar on pen & paper only as it is not operationalized yet ,so we had to judge RBE 2 better on operational grounds only .So if typhoon by chance wins we have to wait for it's operationalized aesa that looks like a post dated cheque

There is still so many things uncertain about it and that's why no country wants it, although it is more cost-effective than the other Eurocanards.

but brother the irony is rafale despite of having all features no country wants it i.e no country has bought it ,the closet deal was for brazil but alas there also it failed .Now u can post many reasons for it's losing ,but it has no value here

The link with EF/Rafale and Storm Shadow/Scalp and IAF tender to get additional cruise missiles makes it too obvious where one of the priorities in MMRCA was, but Rafale can do it today (combat proven in Libya), EF can do it only in future if Storm Shadow will be integrated and if CFTs will be developed and integrated to provide enough fuel for such deep strike missions.

well exactly same thing applies for E captor aesa also as it is for future only & it has not been fielded

currently there is no HMS integrated

link/ source please

And they offered the same for the LCA with the EJ 200 engine, but as long as we or any other export customer don't fund it, TVC is not available for EF, since the partner countries don't want it and don't pay for it.

well what different thing then i told before ,tell me i said tvc were offered to india if india wants to pay for it then they can get it

Since the term sensor fusion includes "sensor", shouldn't that be the prime criteria for a comparison?

well i agree buddy but there are many other things in cluded in sensor fusion just advanced sensors wont mean the plane is having better sensor fusion ,.Sensor fusion is the processing of information received and transmitted by the key aircraft sensors. This information is presented to the pilot clearly and accurately, in an uncluttered fashion, to allow for safe and efficient single seat operation in the swing-role/ multirole environment.so it depends upon better microprocessors computers (databus) & softwares to integrate here i think Typhoon may be having an upperhand as compare to france .I had earlier requested u to prove whether france has better computer microprocessor to integrates & compute all informations from different sensors in uncluttered manner .

The voice command has nothing to do with it and is only an additional feature, but don't increase the sensor fusion.

well it has some indirect role in sensor fusion as HMSS with voice comand is integretated with typhoon's Multifunctional Information Distribution System (MIDS) which reduces the pilot’s workload to focus on the mission and systems operation. In an air battle scenario, this system even allows the lead pilot to assign targets to himself with two simple voice commands or to any of his wingmen with only five commands.so it is a just a supplementary advantage in terms of sensor fusion but it has no direct role in sensor fusion that's i agree

Yes, but you still seems not to understand that payload capability is not the point, but the fact that the EF has only 3 wet/heavy stations. IF it ever integrates cruise missiles for example, which are too big to be carried on the centerline station, it can only carry this config:

1 x 1000l centerline fuel tank
1 x cruise missile on each wing

So although its payload limit is not reached it can't add a single fuel tank anymore, because the other 11 hardpoints are not useful for it!

so thats why they are developing conformal tanks for it to compensate that thing ,but yes it is as usual in developmental stage

As you can see it has nothing to do with the payload, but with the layout of the hardpoints and design prioirties! EF was design to for air superiority, that's why the 4 BVR missile stations at the fuselage were more important, than additional wet/heavy stations or a dedicated pod station in strike roles and the only way out of this limitation is the addition of CFTs. So deep strike capability only if the weapon + increased fuel capacity were integrated/developed.

& i had also posted no of hard points in this thread & table also in which rafale has scored a upperhand but yes i had missed out to explain the point u stated above about fuel tank pods

Rafale was used in:

Air defence
CAS - with 250Kg LGB and AASM PGMs
SEAD - with AASM PGMs
Deep strike - with Scalp cruise missiles
Recon missions - with Reco NG pod
Tanker missions - from the carrier
Is able to carry Exocet in the anti ship role


EF was used in:

Air defence
CAS - with 500Kg Paveway II (IV is only in testing yet)


And now tell me please, which fighter is more multi role capable? EF has simply a very long way to go with a lot of upgrades to be as multi role capable as Rafale, today it is even less multi role capable as IAF Mirage 2000s without the new upgrade!

see buddy i had already said before there was no air to air combat in libya war so no question of Air to air combat question comes here between these two .But air to ground capabilties rafale has scored a lot compare to ef 2000 no doubt about it so that's why i had stated that RAFALE has better & combat proven air to ground capablities in the thread & in the CHART .
But rest all mission s though ef 2000 has not done but it can be done by ef 2000 but as usual in future ,yes not sure about tanker mission.But the most important thing u want from a mutirole fighter is it's air to air capabltiy & air to ground capabilities rest are accesory
Day 4 – 22 March 2011 Reconoissance mission
RAF Typhoons flew their first ever combat mission, patrolling the no-fly zone while Tornado GR4s from RAF Marham flew an armed reconnaissance sortie. The MoD reported that Royal Navy ships Triumph, Westminister and Cumberland remained in theatre for additional strikes and patrol.
Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Military Operations | RAF Typhoons patrol Libyan no-fly zone
Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Military Operations | Operations in Libya having a very real effect

And I never denied that, but it can't cue a missile just with it's DASS systems and not to BVR ranges, like Rafale can

but can rafale's spectra do that in bvr ranges i doubt can u post a link to prove it as i know it can only provide within bvr range
not BVR range ie' IR missiles only

you took very old wiki specs as the base but most of these weapons are already phased out, or were never integrated.

which one are already phased out & were never integrated would u kindly tell with links / sources .

No matter which fighter IAF chooses, METEOR will be the prime BVR missile for both, Iris-T/Asraam are the possible WVR missiles for EF, while Rafale has MICA, which has the advantage to be used in BVR as well and that both versions (IR and EM) can be used in WVR too.

u are absolutely correct about meteor .but what about ranges comparision between mica & asraam ,iris t as
There are two MICA variants this is not a single missile with dual seekers ; MICA RF has an active radar homing seeker range 60-70 km and while MICA IR has an imaging infra-red homing seeker having approx 15 -18 km range but not 60-70 km as stated by u above.
while asraam has a range of 18 km while iris t has a range of ~ 25 km

Sadly not buddy, there are a lot of mistakes

well buddy which mistakes other than u posted above can u plz mention with proper source & links to justify it

and I am not a Rafale fanboy only because I base my opinion on the current facts and the requirements of IAF, instead on old plans and paperspecs of future capabilities that nobody is funding.

ok i agree what u said as many specs i mentioned are paperspecs of future capabilities ,but no body is funding part is in clouds as it has 4 partner states which are deep in economic recession so if they want india to select typhoon they would have to fund it like AESA radar development or else india wont buy EF 2000

I only wants the best / most suiting fighter for our forces (IAF and IN) and I constantly said that this is the Rafale today, while 10 years ago I would have prefered EF over Rafale and even MKI!

well this is the exact thing i want but ef 2000 has been bought by saudi arabia & austria & many more are interessted in it apart from it's partner states so it would develop surely in future but as i earliear said it would be like POST DATED CHEQUE for india .
While rafale which is combat proven platform having no customers or buyers ,well that may not be important but it's a fact

Exactly, so you can only be for Rafale, since it offers all of this, while the EF is only good in A2A!

but what if EF 2000 is selected as winner so wont it be used in air to ground capabilities .

 

[DrSomnath999]

No, that's they are the same missile, just with different seekers, that's what makes MICA so special and different from other missiles, because the EM (active seeker) version has the same TVC features like the IR (passive seeker), what makes it as maneuverable in close combats like any other IR missile.
On the other side, the MICA IR has the same frame as the MICA EM, which gives it the same BVR range as well.

MICA EM/IR seekers:

MICA EM:

MICA IR:

but buddy one missile is not having 2 seekers ,but one missile with one individual seeker that is either EM or IR so nothing special apart from a common missile frame,well there is no where written that MICA IR variant can go & hit target at range of 60 km only EM variant can do it ,then it would be a revolution indeed .as no 5th gen wbvr range apart from python5 has a range of 25-30 km

well a single A-A missile with dual range & dual seeker on it is in development,that will allow a single missile to perform both close-in and beyond-visual-range air-to-air missions. The dual-range capability of the missile results from a hybrid combination of flight control and propulsion technologies for both short and longer range missiles.

Dual Range Missile Air Superiority Missile Technology (ASMT)

 

[DrSomnath999]

WELL CAN ANY ONE KINDLY TELL ME WHAT IS THE RANGE OF MICA IR MISSILE AS I AM CONFUSED ABOUT IT'S 60 KM RANGE ?

 

[acetophenol]

whatever,
you hi-fi guys take on the hi-fi discussions ok!
just choose the best!
(i personally stand for rafale)

 

[Secur]

Excellent Analysis bro !!! Simply magnificent ... Always a pleasure to read your threads ... Why dont you start a blog too ?

 

[DrSomnath999]

Excellent Analysis bro !!! Simply magnificent ... Always a pleasure to read your threads ... Why dont you start a blog too ?

thanks buddy we would see that later ,right now i am messed up about the range of MICA IR missile's range ,.

---------- Post added at 10:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 PM ----------

whatever,
you hi-fi guys take on the hi-fi discussions ok!
just choose the best!
(i personally stand for rafale)

ok chotte as u say

 

[Secur]

Wiki puts it at around 80 km ...

 

[DrSomnath999]

Wiki puts it at around 80 km ...

arre buddy how can IR range missile have such a long range that looks impossible that may be for radar guided mica only

 

[golmaal]

Fantastic Article guys..
Yeah some points you guys discussed in this list bounced from my mind..

 

[DrSomnath999]

Yeah some points you guys discussed in this list bounced from my mind..

which points bounced from ur mind tell me i would explain u

 

[cyphercide]

EFT all the way.It's the better air superiority fighter,with the required swing role capabilities, includes a handsome add on package and production deals in the future for India(and that's not only for India's orders,we can probably make some money out of it too).Whereas the French extort money from us for upgrades,we will be at their whim as the sole customer of Rafales and let's admit it,The EFT camp did a far better job marketing it's ware to us.


PS#Salaams to DrSomnath for his fabulous work,didn't expect nothing less from ya!!!

 

[Skull and Bones]

@Somnath.

I just found out that MICA use hybrid guidance system. Onboard radar in the aircraft guides the missile (via up-link) towards the target until the missile's IR sensors picks up the heat signature of the target. So technically MICA can have 80km range.

 

[golmaal]

which points bounced from ur mind tell me i would explain u

Sir - Why don't we put our indigenous Astra on new upcoming fighters? Is MICA is superior than Astra?
hope Astra is already delivered to our force!!