8 Chinese submarines approval & used western subs talks

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Hi.
If you are aware of any plants currently running and manufacturing specialised steel and could provide tb5e Information I would be obliged.
Regards
Araz.


Give me some figures which I can believe.
Araz

http://www.steelmelters.com/

Batala Steel Industries

opened when searched on google. dont know if they are actually making it though.

 

[araz]

http://www.steelmelters.com/

Batala Steel Industries

opened when searched on google. dont know if they are actually making it though.

Exactly as I thought. These are small steel mills making girders and steel for construction industry not specialised steel plants manufacturing weapons grade steel.
To my knowledge there is only one unit in Karachk which got shut down during ZA Bhutto era and was subsequently revived by the army. There may be a second small plant under the armed forces. So my friend Sheikh Google has not taught the right lesson today.
Araz

 

[araz]

Pakistan To Buy 8 Submarines From China

Pakistan is renewing efforts to modernize its submarine arm with eight submarines from China as well as a search for surplus European submarines.

Navy and Defence Ministry officials revealed the plans to the National Assembly Standing Committee on Defence on Tuesday, with Economic Affairs Secretary Muhammad Saleem Sethi leaving for China to pursue the deal on Wednesday.

Analysts believe that since the National Security Committee has agreed to the deal in principle, it is likely to go ahead.

The officials also requested US $294 million to upgrade ATR-72 maritime patrol aircraft. Two un-upgraded aircraft are in service, and officials hope to acquire more.

Pakistan operates five French submarines.

Its two Agosta-70s were acquired in 1979 and 1980, respectively, and despite upgrades they are widely acknowledged by analysts to be well past their prime and in need of replacement. Three air-independent propulsion (AIP)-equipped Agosta-90Bs, which are a development of the Agosta-70s, were commissioned from 1999 onward.

The Navy requires 12 submarines laid out in the Armed Forces Development Plan (AFDP) 2015 and a later revised plan.

Tuesday's proceedings created some confusion, however, with officials telling the committee that surplus submarines had been pursued from France, Germany, and the UK, but later acknowledging France had refused Pakistan's approaches with concerns over transfer of technology as one example.

Brian Cloughley, previous Australian defense attache to Islamabad, has said France has simply abandoned the Pakistani defense market to focus on the far more lucrative Indian one.

The mention of the UK was also surprising, considering the UK has not built or operated conventional submarines since the early 1990s, and sold its four Upholder-class subs to Canada where they now serve as the Victoria class.

Cloughley believes the Germans may not be willing or able to supply any surplus submarines either as they do not seem to have any, or at least any that Pakistan would want.

German firms offer new Type-214, Type-209/1400 mod, and Type-210 mod submarines for export.

However, Cloughley said there may be other possibilities.

Germany partnered with Turkey in 2011 to offer Indonesia a lease/new-build deal for Type-209 submarines. Indonesia, however, selected the South Korean improved Chang Bogo, a development of the Type-209/1400.

Turkish industry officials have told Defense News they are ready to offer Pakistan Type-209s if asked.

Turkey, one of Pakistan's closest allies and strongest defense industry partners, shelved its plans to upgrade its six Type-209/1200 Atilay class subs with AIP systems in favor of acquiring the Type-214.

However, Pakistani defense industry officials have said Islamabad would prefer a newer design.

It is uncertain if present circumstances have forced a rethink. "It's all supposition, and I'm afraid there doesn't seem to be an answer," Cloughley said.

Pakistan almost signed a deal for three Type-214 subs in 2008, raises hopes of Pakistan-Turkish submarine cooperation.

However, analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said the deal floundered on the issue of financing after the then-Pakistan People's Party-led government signed an IMF loan agreement that derailed the sub acquisition plans.

He said the Type-214 deal was the centerpiece of the naval aspect of the AFDP, and that the first submarine would have been delivered in 2015. The naval aspect of the AFDP especially is in total disarray, he said.

It is unknown if the Type-214 was shelved until finances become available (some industry officials believe this was at least the intention at the time the deal collapsed), but attention subsequently switched to acquiring six AIP-equipped submarines from China.

Due to the need to decommission the Agosta-70s, Khan believes any refurbished submarines will be required to be "sailing under a Pakistani flag within 12 months."

Acquiring Turkish Type-209s remains possible, and despite Pakistan's predicament, Khan says "Under the present circumstances I don't see any collaboration between Pakistan and Turkey since Pakistan will only be locally producing Chinese submarines."

Whether the Chinese submarines are the S-20 export derivative of the Type-039A/Type-041 Yuan-class submarine, or a bespoke design, is unclear. But the Yuan has also been mentioned, and according to government officials the deal was supposed to be secured by the end of 2014.

If the deal transpires, Khan said it will be the largest ever Sino-Pakistani deal. He believes the submarines will each cost $ 250 million to $325 million.

Neither the Ministry of Defence nor the Navy would shed further light when asked. No answers were forthcoming to requests regarding the time frame of the deal, whether the two Agosta-70s will finally be retired now the number of planned Chinese submarines has increased to eight, clarification on acquiring surplus Western submarines, or the status of the Type-214 acquisition efforts.

Should the Chinese deal go through, it will be a considerable relief, and be especially significant for the nuclear deterrent.

Pakistan inaugurated its Naval Strategic Force Command in 2012 in response to India's rapid nuclearization.

A potential force of 8 AIP-equipped Chinese subs and the three Agosta-90Bs "is a quantum leap in existing capabilities," said Mansoor Ahmed of Quaid-e-Azam University's Department of Defence and Strategic Studies.

Though acknowledging nuclear-powered attack boats are far more capable, he believes "An AIP [diesel-electric submarine] offers Pak the best bang for the buck. But it has to be supplemented with a commensurate investment in [anti-submarine warfare] capabilities to neutralize developments on the Indian side."

He said this will lay the groundwork for having a permanent sea-based deterrent equipped with plutonium-based warheads fitted to cruise missiles, "which is expected to be the next major milestone in Pakistan's development of a triad."

Ahmed acknowledges this "would pose fresh challenges for ensuring effective and secure communications at all times with the submarines for both India and Pak in addition to having a mated-arsenal at sea that would require pre-delegation of launch authority at some level for both countries.

"This would be an altogether new challenge that would have to be addressed for an effective sea-based deterrent."

Nevertheless, AIP-equipped conventional submarines "provide reliable second strike platforms, [and] an assured capability resides with [nuclear-powered attack and nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines], which are technically very complex and challenging to construct and operate compared to SSKs, and also very capital intensive."

Pakistan To Buy 8 Submarines From China

To me at least it is now very clear that the total acquisition will be of 8 subs from the Chinese. PN tried to buy /lease second hand subs which went no where. Therefore they have upgraded the earlier order of 6 to 8. This is clear form the post above and the confusion has been created by the way questions were framed and answered. The deal seems imminent and we should be hearing something good come out of it.

 

[A1Kaid]

Hi.
If you are aware of any plants currently running and manufacturing specialised steel and could provide tb5e Information I would be obliged.
Regards
Araz.


Give me some figures which I can believe.
Araz

Okay, read my thread, first post.


PM Nawaz Sharif turns around Pakistani Economy

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Exactly as I thought. These are small steel mills making girders and steel for construction industry not specialised steel plants manufacturing weapons grade steel.
To my knowledge there is only one unit in Karachk which got shut down during ZA Bhutto era and was subsequently revived by the army. There may be a second small plant under the armed forces. So my friend Sheikh Google has not taught the right lesson today.
Araz

There was Steel cutting done for the freight tanker so there is some sort of steel manufactured...This is all that i can tell

 

[Penguin]

For PN it might be a possibility that the 1st Greek U-214 is bought to get the training and TOT can be acquired from Turkey or South Korea in the case of further orders. This would also provide the 12 subs as per the 2015 modernization plan. Though this would increase the operational costs because of no standardized naval fleet.

Dream on.

How do these submarines compare to Augosta 90B? Are they more advanced? Less advanced? Equal? Mind you, France retired Augosta 90B ages ago, so even that submarine is a relic.

Not if they were retired as an economy measure ....

I don't know, it was in news people are assuming that Germany can provide used U-209s and France have refused to sell any sub new or used to Pakistan.

That can only happen if 209 users trade in their boats for newer 214s. However, 209 users have typically sought to build at home... So it seems an unlikely scenario.

 

[LonE_WolF]

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar speaking to media at the undocking ceremony of first Scorpene submarine said that he is fully aware of recent deal between Pakistan and china on sale of 8 Yuan-class Type-041 conventional (non-nuclear) diesel-powered submarines .

Aware of Chinese submarine purchase by Pakistan: Parrikar | idrw.org

 

[Basel]

Dream on.


Not if they were retired as an economy measure ....


That can only happen if 209 users trade in their boats for newer 214s. However, 209 users have typically sought to build at home... So it seems an unlikely scenario.

Then what you think? from where PN can purchase used advance subs which can fulfill its future need after upgrades?

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

How much Type 93G will cost ?

No more than 1 billion, and even Russia Today is now praising the Type 093G.

It is labelled as the advanced SSN, and it is bigger than the LA class but similar to the Virginia class.

China reportedly completes 3 advanced nuclear attack subs — RT News

 

[kaonalpha]

So can we lease a type 93g?

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

So can we lease a type 93g?

For the moment, China needs to first fulfill the quantity for its own navy, so Pakistan can get the technological transfer.

 

[The SC]

China could provide two, then the rest could be built in Pakistan.

That should be a future possibility since:

"Type 093G sub, which has a missile attack range of 300km, means it can provide strong support in taking on enemy aircraft carriers along with long-range bombers and surface warships. The Type 093 sub can also use long-range missiles to attack targets on foreign soil, laying a solid foundation for the development of the next-gen Type 096 sub."

PLA's new Type 093G nuclear sub a potential 'carrier killer'｜WantChinaTimes.com

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

That should be a future possibility since:

"Type 093G sub, which has a missile attack range of 300km, means it can provide strong support in taking on enemy aircraft carriers along with long-range bombers and surface warships. The Type 093 sub can also use long-range missiles to attack targets on foreign soil, laying a solid foundation for the development of the next-gen Type 096 sub."

PLA's new Type 093G nuclear sub a potential 'carrier killer'｜WantChinaTimes.com

Actually it is YJ-18 which is more likely 400-500km.

WantChinaTimes is an anti-China tabloid, so they can only quote the underestimation, not the overestimation.

 

[Penguin]

Then what you think? from where PN can purchase used advance subs which can fulfill its future need after upgrades?

A country operating 209s that has started building 214s perhaps? Italy (S1000)?

 

[The SC]

Actually it is YJ-18 which is more likely 400-500km.

WantChinaTimes is an anti-China tabloid, so they can only quote the underestimation, not the overestimation.

If a sale is to be made according to international conventions, there will be only one estimation and that is 299.9999 km. Anyhow Pakistan can put in its own version of the missile for any suitable range.