8 Chinese submarines approval & used western subs talks

[Penguin]

It was already somehow impressive to US officials in 2004, imagine today! can you?
Type-209 does not have AIP, you can talk about type-214 if you want some analogy.

The Greek 209 Okeanos (S118) completed an upgrade which was achieved by cutting the boat in half aft of the control room and adding a 6 m plug with an 120 kW Siemens AIP system to the ship

Sea Platforms
HS Okeanos re-delivered to Hellenic Navy
Theodore L Valmas, Athens - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
20 October 2014

Greece's Type 209/1200 submarine HS Okeanos (S-118) was redelivered back to the Hellenic Navy (HN) from Hellenic Shipyards at Skaramangason on 20 October, having completed its Neptune II mid-life upgrade programme.
Sea trials of the boat are expected to begin immediately and it should be fully operational by the end of the year.
The third of the four-strong Poseidon class, HS Okeanos was launched by HDW in Kiel in November 1978 and arrived in Greece in January 1980.
In 2002 the Neptune II modernisation programme was signed with HDW's successor, TKMS, for three Type 209/1200 submarines. The programme included insertion of a 6.5m-long air-independent propulsion section, along with the fitting of a new sonar array, combat management system, optronic periscopes and Sub-Harpoon launch capability, to bring the Poseidon-class boats up to standard of the Type 214 submarine, of which the HN has ordered four.
However, following a prolonged contractual dispute with TKMS, in 2009 the HN terminated the Neptune II programme, leaving HS Okeanos as the only upgraded boat, in order to fund the construction of two more Type 214 submarines.
Under Greece's current budget situation, though, the construction prospects of the two Type 214 boats remain somewhat tenuous.

HS Okeanos re-delivered to Hellenic Navy - IHS Jane's 360
Two Hellenic Navy submarines set for service - IHS Jane's 360

Turkey considered upgrading its 209s with AIP ut eventually chose to get new boats with AIP
(Atılay class mid-life refit with AIP propulsion cancelled). South Korea also looked into fiting AIP to 209s. Again funding prevented actual upgrading. However, there is no technical reason why 209 cannot have AIP and in fact 1 boat does.

TURKISH NAVY SHIPBUCKET: Type 209/1400 AIP Üzerine Çalışmalar

 

[black-hawk_101]

I hope PN would start building two of them at a time at KS&EWs this year

 

[Donatello]

The Greek 209 Okeanos (S118) completed an upgrade which was achieved by cutting the boat in half aft of the control room and adding a 6 m plug with an 120 kW Siemens AIP system to the ship


HS Okeanos re-delivered to Hellenic Navy - IHS Jane's 360
Two Hellenic Navy submarines set for service - IHS Jane's 360

Turkey considered upgrading its 209s with AIP ut eventually chose to get new boats with AIP
(Atılay class mid-life refit with AIP propulsion cancelled). South Korea also looked into fiting AIP to 209s. Again funding prevented actual upgrading. However, there is no technical reason why 209 cannot have AIP and in fact 1 boat does.

TURKISH NAVY SHIPBUCKET: Type 209/1400 AIP Üzerine Çalışmalar

What was the cost of the Greek upgrade?

 

[Penguin]

The Hellenic Navy was the first navy outside of Germany to order a fuel cell driven submarine. In February 2000 Greece ordered three new 214-class submarines from German owned Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH [HDW] under the ARCHIMEDES program and an overhaul for three older 209-class submarines from HDW under the NEPTUNE II program.

In 2002, Hellenic shipyards received the Neptune II contract for the “mid life” modernization and repair of 3 Poseidon class boats, which included cutting the hull and installing an 6.5m long Air-Independent Propulsion section, as well as hydrogen storage tanks for the AIP. Flank array sonar, electronics upgrades, an electro-optic mast with satellite communication capability, and Harpoon missile firing capability reportedly round out the upgrade’s major features. In the end, however, only HS Okeanos [S118] will be upgraded.

Both deals went sour an the finances are pretty convoluted. Lots of palm grease too
ВИФ2 NE
: Ветка : И последние новости из буржуазной прессы
http://5dias.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Submarine_Hot_Doc.pdf

 

[The SC]

The Greek 209 Okeanos (S118) completed an upgrade which was achieved by cutting the boat in half aft of the control room and adding a 6 m plug with an 120 kW Siemens AIP system to the ship

I did not want to mention that, the Portuguese 209 were the first to do that in 2005 , but they do not look like 209s anymore.

Fuel Cell Propulsion Fitted into New Portuguese Subs

 

[Penguin]

I did not want to mention that, the Portuguese 209 were the first to do that in 2005 , but they do not look like 209s anymore.

Fuel Cell Propulsion Fitted into New Portuguese Subs

That is because they aren't modified 209s but rather new built 214s. Okeanos was built as a 209 and after year of service converted to AIP. Prior to the new boats, Portugal operated French Daphne class boats, so there were no 209s available to convert.

Originally, HDW proposed the Type 209 submarine (U-209) during the competition, but decided to later enter a new proposal based on the Type 214. It is for this reason that the Tridente class is commonly designated as the U 209PN.

Tridente-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is a 209 only in name (214 being a development mixing elements of 209 and 212).

From U-209PN / U-214 / U-212 - O U209-PN, o U214 e o contrato de fornecimento
(Article about difference between U209, U212, U214 and U209PN: translate this from portugese to language of choice )

 

[The SC]

That is because they aren't modified 209s but rather new built 214s. Okeanos was built as a 209 and after year of service converted to AIP. Prior to the new boats, Portugal operated French Daphne class boats, so there were no 209s available to convert.


Tridente-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is a 209 only in name (214 being a development mixing elements of 209 and 212).

From U-209PN / U-214 / U-212 - O U209-PN, o U214 e o contrato de fornecimento
(Article about difference between U209, U212, U214 and U209PN: translate this from portugese to language of choice )

Here where the confusion comes from:

"It should be noted that the Government of Portugal caused increases in the price by specifying upgrades to the base 209 design, with features from the newer Class 214 submarines."

NRP Tridente Type 209PN

Back on topic:
8 advanced Submarines for Pakistan. I think they will be in par with the U-214, yet better for Pakistan because they can fire missiles too.

 

[Penguin]

Here where the confusion comes from:

"It should be noted that the Government of Portugal caused increases in the price by specifying upgrades to the base 209 design, with features from the newer Class 214 submarines."

NRP Tridente Type 209PN

Actually, you should read the Portugese article.....

Google Translate=

 

[farhan_9909]

@Penguin

Sir,what would be a better choice for Pakistan?

Type 032 Qing class with SLBM and SLCM launch capabilities and displacement in excess of 6000t
or
Yuan class with just SLCM launch capability like the israely dolphin?

Do you think it is a good choice to have diesel subs but with SLBM launch capability?

 

[The SC]

Actually, you should read the Portugese article.....

Google Translate=

Who me or you? that is from GlobaSecurity .org

 

[Penguin]

Who me or you? that is from GlobaSecurity .org

I read it. Note the first line "The submarines are Type 209PN ocean-going submarines of high autonomy, are very identical to U214, taking operational requirements tailored to the needs of the Portuguese State." Now, did you read the article I posted a link to or not?

@Penguin

Sir,what would be a better choice for Pakistan?

Type 032 Qing class with SLBM and SLCM launch capabilities and displacement in excess of 6000t
or
Yuan class with just SLCM launch capability like the israely dolphin?

Do you think it is a good choice to have diesel subs but with SLBM launch capability?

Type 32 is a testbed for new technologies, not a regular production sub. Yuan would be a more Obvious choice.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

@Penguin

Sir,what would be a better choice for Pakistan?

Type 032 Qing class with SLBM and SLCM launch capabilities and displacement in excess of 6000t
or
Yuan class with just SLCM launch capability like the israely dolphin?

Do you think it is a good choice to have diesel subs but with SLBM launch capability?

The Type 032 is a test platform for both JL-2A and JL-3, while the Type 039A/B can also launch the cruise missile for sure.

 

[The SC]

I read it. Note the first line "The submarines are Type 209PN ocean-going submarines of high autonomy, are very identical to U214, taking operational requirements tailored to the needs of the Portuguese State." Now, did you read the article I posted a link to or not?


Type 32 is a testbed for new technologies, not a regular production sub. Yuan would be a more Obvious choice.

I did read it long time ago, what is the point?, since we both know it is a variation of 209. but close to 214. With all the kick backs and controversy that has followed, I suspect the Portuguese government did not want to mention 214 because of the price at that time, but they were getting their own version of it under the name of 209PN.

 

[Penguin]

I did read it long time ago, what is the point?, since we both know it is a variation of 209. but close to 214. With all the kick backs and controversy that has followed, I suspect the Portuguese government did not want to mention 214 because of the price at that time, but they were getting their own version of it under the name of 209PN.

No it is not a variation/version, it is a 214. HDW changed its entry halfway through the bidding proces.

There really IS a reason why they AREN'T listed here:
Type 209 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
While they ARE listed here:
Type 214 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[The SC]

No it is not a variation/version, it is a 214. HDW changed its entry halfway through the bidding proces.

There really IS a reason why they AREN'T listed here:
Type 209 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
While they ARE listed here:
Type 214 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I heard before that they were upgraded versions of the 209, but when I saw the pics , I was convinced it was something like the 214...
Anyhow, if we look at it objectively, there was the 209 as the German export submarine, and then it was followed by the 214...