8 Chinese submarines approval & used western subs talks

[The SC]

China's submarine technologies are in par with the best Western technologies, it even surpasses them in some regards.
Pakistan will be getting 6 of what is known as the type 041 Qing class submarines with around 4000 t displacement, the 2 additional ones to the original order of 2011 can be the same, smaller, modified or improved versions.
Pakistan is also looking to make the S-30 and S-36 at home.
This is according to an average from many contradicting sources.

 

[Wolfhound]

China's latest AIP subs such as the Type 039C use the fuel cell.

What is AIP?

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

What is AIP?

Here is the better explanation.

Air-independent propulsion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Cheetah786]

Judging from ''shopping list'' of Pakistan .............. looks like we will soon jump in Saudia Arabia and then we will have what we want.....................

The Pakistani government has approved the purchase of eight new submarines from China, senior Pakistan Navy officers told the National Assembly's defence committee on 31 March.

In 2011 the government revealed that the navy had begun discussions with China to buy six submarines, with the number of platforms subsequently raised to eight. Those discussions began after the Pakistan Navy stepped back from pursuing the purchase of three submarines from Germany on cost grounds.

The navy officials who spoke on 31 March neither revealed the type of boats to be ordered nor a likely price.

A Pakistani Foreign Ministry official told IHS Jane's that while he did not know which platform would be supplied to Pakistan, "in the recent past, there have been reports of discussions for the Type 041 submarines".

The Type 041 'Yuan' class is described by IHS Jane's Fighting Ships as a diesel electric attack submarine (SSK), potentially with Stirling air independent propulsion, that is armed with YJ-2 (YJ-82) anti-ship missiles and a combination of Yu-4 (SAET-50) passive homing and Yu-3 (SET-65E) active/passive homing torpedoes.

Since 2004 12 Type 041 submarines are believed to have been launched, while the US Department of Defense estimated in its May 2013 annual report to Congress on China's military that production could reach 20 ships. An export version, marketed as the S20 and unveiled in February 2013, displaces about 2,300 tonnes.

The PN is known to operate five French submarines: three Agosta 90B (Khalid-class) submarines purchased in the 1990s and two ageing Agosta 70 (Hashmat-class) boats dating from the late 1970s.

Lieutenant General Talat Masood (retd), who is now a commentator on defence affairs, told IHS Jane's it was "difficult to imagine a price of less than USD500 million per submarine, if not more". By comparison IHS Jane's DS Forecast notes that the Indian Navy is paying USD763 million per boat for six DCNS Scorpene SSKs.

Masood said that in view of the close defence collaboration that exists between China and Pakistan, Beijing was likely to extend a long-term loan, possibly at a low interest rate, to cover the cost of the Type 041s.

 

[Zarvan]

The Pakistani government has approved the purchase of eight new submarines from China, senior Pakistan Navy officers told the National Assembly's defence committee on 31 March.

In 2011 the government revealed that the navy had begun discussions with China to buy six submarines, with the number of platforms subsequently raised to eight. Those discussions began after the Pakistan Navy stepped back from pursuing the purchase of three submarines from Germany on cost grounds.

The navy officials who spoke on 31 March neither revealed the type of boats to be ordered nor a likely price.

A Pakistani Foreign Ministry official told IHS Jane's that while he did not know which platform would be supplied to Pakistan, "in the recent past, there have been reports of discussions for the Type 041 submarines".

The Type 041 'Yuan' class is described by IHS Jane's Fighting Ships as a diesel electric attack submarine (SSK), potentially with Stirling air independent propulsion, that is armed with YJ-2 (YJ-82) anti-ship missiles and a combination of Yu-4 (SAET-50) passive homing and Yu-3 (SET-65E) active/passive homing torpedoes.

Since 2004 12 Type 041 submarines are believed to have been launched, while the US Department of Defense estimated in its May 2013 annual report to Congress on China's military that production could reach 20 ships. An export version, marketed as the S20 and unveiled in February 2013, displaces about 2,300 tonnes.

The PN is known to operate five French submarines: three Agosta 90B (Khalid-class) submarines purchased in the 1990s and two ageing Agosta 70 (Hashmat-class) boats dating from the late 1970s.

Lieutenant General Talat Masood (retd), who is now a commentator on defence affairs, told IHS Jane's it was "difficult to imagine a price of less than USD500 million per submarine, if not more". By comparison IHS Jane's DS Forecast notes that the Indian Navy is paying USD763 million per boat for six DCNS Scorpene SSKs.

Masood said that in view of the close defence collaboration that exists between China and Pakistan, Beijing was likely to extend a long-term loan, possibly at a low interest rate, to cover the cost of the Type 041s.

The only problem is many papers of China and Pakistan are saying Pakistan is looking to get two type of submarines form China one is S-26 and one is S-30. I have no idea which one is S-26 but I think the latest Type 032 is S-30.

 

[The SC]

What about the 4/5 billion$.
Let's assume it to be 4.5 billion $ for 8 submarines, that is more than 500 million$ each, which is the price of a U-216. But considering the usual pricing from China to Pakistan, that will be like Pakistan getting an 800 million $ western Submarine without ToT and with strings attached (if it was the case). Now we must be talking about something close to the price of a Nuclear submarine , which should be around 1 billion $ per Sub.
This adds up to the 2011 deal for 6 AIP type 041Qing class submarines for 3.5 billion $. Witch submarines should be in excess of 4000 t surfaced and 6000 t submerged, or in other words the biggest and most sophisticated ( All electric propulsion plus X-tail) SSKs in the world today. They can fire Torpedoes, SLCMs and most probably some limited numbers of SLBMs in the future if need be, or if there is no nuclear subs in the pipeline.
A variant called the Type 032 Qing class 6,628t submerged with AIP (diesel-electric propulsion), is being used as a testbed for lunching the SLCMs of 1500 km range, SLBMs and new anti-ship missiles.
Future new subs will install VLS and can launch anti-aircraft missiles and cruise missiles. 032 sub is the first one to test latest weapon system for PLAN submarines.

Vertically launched anti-ship missiles
Vertically launched anti-aircraft missiles
Vertically launched land attack missiles
JL-2 and JL-X ballistic missiles for fixed targets
The so-called “DF-21D” family of ballisitc missiles for slow-moving targets such as CV
Underwater launched（from a submerged submarine）UAVs, etc。。。

This is the one (041 Qing class) that Pakistan will get.

This is the testbed Type-032 Submarine (The West call 041/ Qing-class sub)

This is the S-30 (3000 tons) to be manufactured in Pakistan

And this is the type S-26

Type 032 : world largest conventional submarine for sub testing platform | Errymath

 

[Zarvan]

What about the 4/5 billion$.
Let's assume it to be 4.5 billion $ for 8 submarines, that is more than 500 million$ each, which is the price of a U-216. But considering the usual pricing from China to Pakistan, that will be like Pakistan getting an 800 million $ western Submarine without ToT and with strings attached (if it was the case). Now we must be talking about something close to the price of a Nuclear submarine , which should be around 1 billion $ per Sub.
This adds up to the 2011 deal for 6 AIP type 041Qing class submarines for 3.5 billion $. Witch submarines should be in excess of 4000 t surfaced and 6000 t submerged, or in other words the biggest and most sophisticated ( All electric propulsion plus X-tail) SSKs in the world today. They can fire Torpedoes, SLCMs and most probably some limited numbers of SLBMs in the future if need be, or if there is no nuclear subs in the pipeline.
A variant called the Type 032 Qing class 6,628t submerged with AIP (diesel-electric propulsion), is being used as a testbed for lunching the SLCMs of 1500 km range, SLBMs and new anti-ship missiles.
Future new subs will install VLS and can launch anti-aircraft missiles and cruise missiles. 032 sub is the first one to test latest weapon system for PLAN submarines.

Vertically launched anti-ship missiles
Vertically launched anti-aircraft missiles
Vertically launched land attack missiles
JL-2 and JL-X ballistic missiles for fixed targets
The so-called “DF-21D” family of ballisitc missiles for slow-moving targets such as CV
Underwater launched（from a submerged submarine）UAVs, etc。。。

This is the one (041 Qing class) that Pakistan will get.

This is the testbed Type-032 Submarine (The West call 041/ Qing-class sub)

This is the S-30 (3000 tons) to be manufactured in Pakistan

And this is the type S-26

What is Chinese name of S-26 and I think yes Type-032 is of one type we are going for

 

[The SC]

China's new Yuan-class sub seen preparing for sea trials
09 April 2014

A new variant of the Type 039C/Type 041 Yuan-class conventional submarine with a raked sail. Source: Via Top 81 web page
Key Points

• Images of a new variant of China's Type 041 Yuan-class conventional submarine suggest it is being prepared for sea trials
• Images also suggest Chinese shipbuilders are starting to plan a large surface combatant that may be a next-generation destroyer or cruiser

New Chinese-sourced imagery shows that the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) continues to modify its Type 041 Yuan class conventional submarine and that it is making progress towards a new large destroyer or cruiser.

On 10 and 11 December 2013 the first images of a new variant of the Type 041 - also sometimes referred to as the Type 039A, Type 039C or Type 039X - appeared on Chinese military web forums. It had just been launched by the Wuhan Shipyard of the China State Shipbuilding Corporation (CSSC), the major manufacturer of China's non-nuclear powered submarines. Only seen partially in these first images, a new image seen on 6 April shows the new Type 041 variant has a raked sail that is similar to recent German SSK designs.

This new sail design may incorporate an additional high-frequency sonar at the base of the sail, as do some other submarines with similar designs. This Type 041 may also be slightly longer than previous variants.

Uncorroborated Chinese sources have suggested that the new variant displaces about 3,500 tons compared to about 3,000 tons for earlier Type 041s. This could indicate that the new variant has more weapons - IHS Jane's Fighting Ships states that the existing variants are armed with YJ-2 (YJ-82) anti-ship missiles and a combination of Yu-4 (SAET-50) passive homing and Yu-3 (SET-65E) active/passive homing torpedoes. Yu-6 wake-homing torpedoes may also be carried.

The basic export version, marketed as the S20 and unveiled in February 2013, displaces about 2,300 tons.

Since 2004 12 Type 041 submarines are believed to have been launched, while the US Department of Defense estimated in its May 2013 annual report on China's military to Congress that production could reach 20 ships.
...
China's new Yuan-class sub seen preparing for sea trials - IHS Jane's 360

 

[Zarvan]

What about the 4/5 billion$.
Let's assume it to be 4.5 billion $ for 8 submarines, that is more than 500 million$ each, which is the price of a U-216. But considering the usual pricing from China to Pakistan, that will be like Pakistan getting an 800 million $ western Submarine without ToT and with strings attached (if it was the case). Now we must be talking about something close to the price of a Nuclear submarine , which should be around 1 billion $ per Sub.
This adds up to the 2011 deal for 6 AIP type 041Qing class submarines for 3.5 billion $. Witch submarines should be in excess of 4000 t surfaced and 6000 t submerged, or in other words the biggest and most sophisticated ( All electric propulsion plus X-tail) SSKs in the world today. They can fire Torpedoes, SLCMs and most probably some limited numbers of SLBMs in the future if need be, or if there is no nuclear subs in the pipeline.
A variant called the Type 032 Qing class 6,628t submerged with AIP (diesel-electric propulsion), is being used as a testbed for lunching the SLCMs of 1500 km range, SLBMs and new anti-ship missiles.
Future new subs will install VLS and can launch anti-aircraft missiles and cruise missiles. 032 sub is the first one to test latest weapon system for PLAN submarines.

Vertically launched anti-ship missiles
Vertically launched anti-aircraft missiles
Vertically launched land attack missiles
JL-2 and JL-X ballistic missiles for fixed targets
The so-called “DF-21D” family of ballisitc missiles for slow-moving targets such as CV
Underwater launched（from a submerged submarine）UAVs, etc。。。

This is the one (041 Qing class) that Pakistan will get.

This is the testbed Type-032 Submarine (The West call 041/ Qing-class sub)

This is the S-30 (3000 tons) to be manufactured in Pakistan

And this is the type S-26

Type 032 : world largest conventional submarine for sub testing platform | Errymath

What are those large white tubes ?

 

[The SC]

What is Chinese name of S-26 and I think yes Type-032 is of one type we are going for

Type S-26 (T), they look like a Chinese version of the Kilo class with some modifications, most probably more advanced but not by a big margin.

What are those large white tubes ?

SLBM or SLCM, both are/were being tested in VLS configuration.

 

[The SC]

Aware of Chinese submarine purchase by Pakistan: Parrikar

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar speaking to media at the undocking ceremony of first Scorpene submarine said that he is fully aware of recent deal between Pakistan and china on sale of 8 Yuan-class Type-041 conventional (non-nuclear) diesel-powered submarines .

Due to recent development we will work to fast track Project-75I said Parrikar and also he will work to make sure that current 6 Scorpene submarine under development in India are delivered by 2018.

Pakistan navy has a requirement of 15 new submarines and is also on the lookout for the purchase of surplus submarines with European navies. Pakistan already has declared its intention to equip new conventional submarines with Strategy nukes which can be fired from Naval Cruise missiles to give Pakistan Second strike capabilities.

INS Kalvari first of the Scorpene submarine will be inducted by September 2016 in Indian Navy. Defence Minister also confirmed that he will b reviewing Scorpene submarine Project on a monthly basis to make sure Project which has already been delayed by 4 years stays on track and will be meet revised delivery schedules.

Aware of Chinese submarine purchase by Pakistan: Parrikar | idrw.org
------------------------------------------

Requirement for 15 new submarines, let's make it round for 14, that should be the 6 ones ordered in 2011 to be delivered in 2016/17, plus the 8 from the new deal, plus the types S-26 and S-30 that Pakistan will build a few of !?. That will fulfill the present requirements as well as the near future ones, plus some kind of temporary gap filling European surplus submarines ( I can only see the type 212 from Italy or the Gotland from Scandinavia since they both have AIP, but who knows, maybe the Greek U-214s with AIP too).

I have also noticed that the Indian Scorpenes wee delayed by 4 years and the announcement of Pakistan for procuring 8 new submarines coincides with the first rolled out Scorpene. The 4 years is also the span of time since the first deal for 6 Type 041 Qing class submarines was signed in 2011 between Pakistan and China, deliveries are scheduled for next year 2016 for at least 3 and another 3 by 2017. The 4 year delay also gave Pakistan a chance to accumulate a substantial budget for new procurements a.k.a new submarines. Either 2 on top of the original 6 , or as they say in most articles "new 8 submarines". That makes it 14 in total. One should expect to see most of them under Pakistan's Navy colors buy 2020/2022
This shows how closely Pakistan and India are watching each other's moves. And how they move in consequence to those moves.
"Fully aware..." indeed, but it is Pakistan who seems to have the upper hand in intelligence and an edge in awareness.

 

[Rocky rock]

Aware of Chinese submarine purchase by Pakistan: Parrikar

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar speaking to media at the undocking ceremony of first Scorpene submarine said that he is fully aware of recent deal between Pakistan and china on sale of 8 Yuan-class Type-041 conventional (non-nuclear) diesel-powered submarines .

Due to recent development we will work to fast track Project-75I said Parrikar and also he will work to make sure that current 6 Scorpene submarine under development in India are delivered by 2018.

Pakistan navy has a requirement of 15 new submarines and is also on the lookout for the purchase of surplus submarines with European navies. Pakistan already has declared its intention to equip new conventional submarines with Strategy nukes which can be fired from Naval Cruise missiles to give Pakistan Second strike capabilities.

INS Kalvari first of the Scorpene submarine will be inducted by September 2016 in Indian Navy. Defence Minister also confirmed that he will b reviewing Scorpene submarine Project on a monthly basis to make sure Project which has already been delayed by 4 years stays on track and will be meet revised delivery schedules.

Aware of Chinese submarine purchase by Pakistan: Parrikar | idrw.org
------------------------------------------

Requirement for 15 new submarines, let's make it round for 14, that should be the 6 ones ordered in 2011 to be delivered in 2016/17, plus the 8 from the new deal, plus the types S-26 and S-30 that Pakistan will build a few of !?. That will fulfill the present requirements as well as the near future ones, plus some kind of temporary gap filling European surplus submarines ( I can only see the type 212 from Italy or the Gotland from Scandinavia since they both have AIP, but who knows, maybe the Greek U-214s with AIP too).

I have also noticed that the Indian Scorpenes wee delayed by 4 years and the announcement of Pakistan for procuring 8 new submarines coincides with the first rolled out Scorpene. The 4 years is also the span of time since the first deal for 6 Type 041 Qing class submarines was signed in 2011 between Pakistan and China, deliveries are scheduled for next year 2016 for at least 3 and another 3 by 2017. The 4 year delay also gave Pakistan a chance to accumulate a substantial budget for new procurements a.k.a new submarines. Either 2 on top of the original 6 , or as they say in most articles "new 8 submarines". That makes it 14 in total. One should expect to see most of them under Pakistan's Navy colors buy 2020/2022
This shows how closely Pakistan and India are watching each other's moves. And how they move in consequence to those moves.
"Fully aware..." indeed, but it is Pakistan who seems to have the upper hand in intelligence and an edge in awareness.

Let me just clear that these 8 Sub's are not a different deal we talked about earlier 6 one's in 2011 first they had plan for 6 sub's in 2011 now by time has passed they increase it to 8 sub's now. So in total we'll get 8 new sub's.

And few old sub's from European countries in future too. And we'll co-develop S-26 & S-30 with china here in Pak. Which would be different & new project. So 8 new Type 041 qing class + 3/4 used ones from EU'c and by adding 3 Agosta's 90B which we already have total would be around 14 to 15 sub's.

 

[chou.wong]

My Pakistan friends let me introduce some fighter plane from china ! It the most advanced plane in china better than FC-31. we call it jian-20.bellow is the address

 

[Muhammad Omar]

My Pakistan friends let me introduce some fighter plane from china ! It the most advanced plane in china better than FC-31. we call it jian-20.bellow is the address

Brother we all know that it's J-20

 

[Asian.Century]

What Pakistan actually wants 1-2 of these subs these types :

China also reportedly has four Type-094 ballistic missile submarines carrying JL-1 or JL-2 nuclear missiles.



Any chance of Pakistan coming into this joint venture?:

“China is also pursuing joint-design and production of four to six Russian advanced diesel-electric attack submarines containing Russia’s latest submarine sonar, propulsion, and quieting technology,” the RT reporter today said.