4 More F22P coming up made in Pakistan

[Arsalan]

Alright....i will buy that....thanks for the clarification....!! But yes, what i mentioned was another aspect to identify between the two ships....
!!!

my pleasure

Yes....and having said so, dont you think it will be more prone to ships that are much quicker and caries long-range anti-ship missiles?? Many might try to follow the 'hit and run' tactics rather than engaging face to face over a distance with a more capable destroyer....

saying this, the missile craft and fast attack boats become among the most leathal weapons at sea...
every thing have its own part to play.

If i sum this up, it means destroyers can do the work of allmost three frigates....then why not negotiate for 1-2 of it in the upcoming time....??

not necessarily, moreover PN seldom operates in large fleets and thus we do need number to patrol atleast thre to four key positions in our waters!!

The main to threat comes from India, given your geographic location, that has a quite capable naval air wing with ACs and 1 more is on-line i guess....as dealing with subs is equally important and hence the F-22p, then frankly speaking, what are PN's measures to match India's naval air wing or lets say, its air force....??

agreed,, the F22p lacks in air defense. perhaps that is one reason we are listening about heavier frigates or imporved F222p where the imporvement is largeely expected to be in SAM system!!

Off course not....its always good to learn more....

And thanks for your lower posts....they were equally informative....

bro you could have hit the thanks button to say so...

anyways nice talking, thank you!

regards!

 

[bd_4_ever]

saying this, the missile craft and fast attack boats become among the most leathal weapons at sea...every thing have its own part to play.

Exactly my point....! IMO, you should refurbish your FACs and missile boats with better detecting and missile-launching capabilities....these are especially good against ACs....and that is why i always advocate not going for ACs anytime soon, as you have very good counters for it....

These fast boats are cheap and you should look for more for PN's numeric advantage....

not necessarily, moreover PN seldom operates in large fleets and thus we do need number to patrol atleast thre to four key positions in our waters!!

That is the case with BN as well....that is why, according to me, we chose to specialize in anti-aircraft capabilities in our frigates with Zipkin, HQ-7/8 and FM-90....the reason being Burma's recent procurement of 20 MIGs and 50 K-8s....the karakorum will match up with our old F-7s....

For ASW, we have separate torpedo boats and 3 Z-9s are on the way....I guess PN also operates torpedo boats right...?? That is another cost-effective option for ASWs i believe....

For recc purpose....may be King Air MPAs or Agosta Westland could be one of the option....what do you think....??

agreed,, the F22p lacks in air defense. perhaps that is one reason we are listening about heavier frigates or imporved F222p where the imporvement is largeely expected to be in SAM system!!

That should be great...!! Btw, what type of SAMs are PN planning for that matter....??

Plus, i think missile boats can be modified for anti-aircraft purpose as well....you may wish to look into that too....

bro you could have hit the thanks button to say so...

anyways nice talking, thank you!

regards!

You got it, next time i will....

And the feeling is always mutual my friend....


Cheers!!!

 

[Penguin]

Destroyers (DD or DDG)

A destroyer is currently the largest type of surface combatant currently under construction for world navies. Destroyers have steadily grown in size (now 5,000 to 10,000 tons), expense (nearly US$700 million apiece) and capability. Generally, a destroyer is considered to be a ship that has all of the sensors (including a sophisticated phased-array radar), combat systems, and weapons needed to operate in a high-threat environment. A number of world navies are currently building ships that, while called frigates, more accurately represent destroyers in size and capability. Examples include the Spanish F-100, the German F-124, and the Dutch De Zeven Provincien classes (all are highly capable ships displacing over 5,000 tons and carrying phased-array radars).

Frigates (FF or FFG)

A frigate is a medium-sized surface combatant (between 2,000 and 5,000 tons) that is either suited for one specific role (anti-submarine warfare or anti-air warfare), or has lesser all-around capabilities than a destroyer. A frigate may be less capable than a destroyer, but is still a relatively sophisticated and expensive (averaging around US$325 million apiece) platform. A frigate is generally the smallest surface combatant that can conduct extended blue-water missions in a high-threat environment.

Corvettes (FS)

Corvettes are fast (around 25 knots or better), well-armed ships that displace between 700 and 2000 tons. A corvette is generally not intended for extended ocean-going operations, and is best suited for regional operations. Corvettes are generally the smallest platforms capable of accommodating the sensors, weapons, and combat systems needed to operate in a medium threat environment. Corvettes are sometimes referred to as light frigates (FFLs). It can be assumed that the hull design for a corvette and that of an offshore patrol vessel are very similar. The differences will be in propulsion and outfitting. Corvettes will have higher speed and therefore less endurance and range than OPV, much greater armament, and less space for provisions and habitability.

AMI International - NSPD Sample

At 3,144 tonnes and considering its armement and sensor suite F22P is a Frigate, comparable to e.g. the Italian Lupo/Artigliere class, though the Type 53H3 (Jiangwei2) from which she derives displaces only 2,393 tons full load and with similar armement and sensors is considered a Light Frigate by many.

(Reposted from another thread: http://www.defence.pk/forums/naval-forces/33514-what-difference-between-frigate-destroyer.html )

 

[KS]

. A number of world navies are currently building ships that, while called frigates, more accurately represent destroyers in size and capability. Examples include the Spanish F-100, the German F-124, and the Dutch De Zeven Provincien classes (all are highly capable ships displacing over 5,000 tons and carrying phased-array radars).

And the Shivalik class frigates wich have a full load displacement of about 5500 tons.

 

[Arsalan]

Exactly my point....! IMO, you should refurbish your FACs and missile boats with better detecting and missile-launching capabilities....these are especially good against ACs....and that is why i always advocate not going for ACs anytime soon, as you have very good counters for it....

These fast boats are cheap and you should look for more for PN's numeric advantage....

PN do maintain a good sizeable force of FAC. as a matter of fact, PN is lookinf forward to 500tn class chines FAC as well.

have a lool at:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/naval-forces/65766-pakistan-build-fac-possible-jv-china.html

In late February 2010, AMI received a copy of a Pakistani Navy (PN) tender inquiry concerning the procurement of two 500-ton Fast Attack Craft (FAC). The tender was released by Electronic Business Systems of Karachi for the Ministry of Defence Production. The invitation to tender (ITT) (No. 1347/209/DGDP/PC-4 dtd 11 Feb 2010 on FOB basis due for opening on 24 March 2010) is for the supply of two 500-ton FAC hulls, fitted for weapons configuration. Responses to the ITT are due by 1500 (local time) on 22 March 2010 if by post, and 1030 (local time) 24 March 2010 if delivered by hand. Opening will occur at 11 (local) on 24 March.

The entire tender document can be found in AMI’s Electronic Library at: http://www.amiinter.com/wnpr/download_docs/index.html.

After entering the website, click on the Pakistan country folder, then click on Tender for Two 500-Ton FAC for Pakistani Navy.

The ITT lists the main characteristics for the FAC as follows:

-Full load displacement of 500-600 tons
-Overall length of 60 meters (196.8ft)
-Radius of action equal to or greater than 500 nautical • miles, max speed 30 knots
-Complement of 55-60 personnel
-And fitted with the following weapon and sensor systems:
-8 Chinese C-802A SSMs
-Two 25mm close range semi-automatic EO/IR AA • guns
-Two 12.7mm machine guns
-Chaff and IR decoys
-Air/Surface search radar with track while scan (TWS) function
-Electro optical director and fire control radars for associated weapons
-Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) System
-Modern C3 System

Detailed main characteristics, design specifications, operational capabilities and combat capabilities are described in detail in the ITT.

http://www.amiinter.com/whatsnew/hotnews.pdf
====

Was guided to this by H Khan's post in pakdef.

Completely slipped by me - anyone else aware of this?

The tender date is passed, so proposals must have been submitted by now. I did a quick google, and there are not a lot of FAC in the 500 ton class that I could find. A Chinese model does exist (likely choice given the requirements for C802A missile).

(i hope thi one helps and makes you happy) this news report may well be about Chines Type 022 FAC

you must visit:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/naval-forces/52473-pakistan-issues-tenders-two-500-ton-fac.html

That is the case with BN as well....that is why, according to me, we chose to specialize in anti-aircraft capabilities in our frigates with Zipkin, HQ-7/8 and FM-90....the reason being Burma's recent procurement of 20 MIGs and 50 K-8s....the karakorum will match up with our old F-7s....

For ASW, we have separate torpedo boats and 3 Z-9s are on the way....I guess PN also operates torpedo boats right...?? That is another cost-effective option for ASWs i believe....

frigats, specially the F22p frigate are meant for ASW roles.

For recc purpose....may be King Air MPAs or Agosta Westland could be one of the option....what do you think....??

that would be fine. P3C Orions are also good. moreover PN may relay on PAF Erieye as well, that is a real eye in sky!!

That should be great...!! Btw, what type of SAMs are PN planning for that matter....??

HQ-16 most probably to equi new frigats.

You got it, next time i will....

And the feeling is always mutual my friend....

Regards!

 

[Archie]

No aircraft carrier for 2 years and no planes or pilots who know how to land planes on carrier

Their existing carrier is peace of garbage with 1-2 planes its like a big fishing boat

Well AZAD ,
I must have read about 500 of your post and i dont know what to call u
Sometimes your posts are over ambitious , sometime down right reidiculus and some other time funny .
By reading your posts i can make out that u are a college going kid with a laptop , or a guy in his 40s pretending to act like his son.

I GUESS U ARE HERE FOR PROVIDING COMIC RELIEF

 

[Archie]

Now as regarding your querry regarding there aircraft carrier capability
Well u are right they will recieve Gorshkov in 2012 , while IAC1 Vikrant should follow in 2014-15.
as far as not Having planes is concerned , well u are wrong about that
Indian navy is to recieve 16 mig29k this year out of which 8 are already in service , havin being inducted in feb , these will be followed by 29 more jets in 2012 .
as far as training is concerned ,
the indian navy pilots started training on the airforce's mig29s about 2 yrs before the delivery of mig 29k.
As far as landing planes on a carrier is concerned , well these guys have been operating an aircraft carrier since 1960s and i think 50 yrs experience is enough to learn how to land a plane on a carrier
They are also building a land based ski jump system to train rookie pilots , which as per latest info will be completed by october.
Now regarding ur question about the capability of viraat
Well thats what it carries and it has been upgraded constantly to keep in touch with requirements of indian navy
Sensors and
processing systems: 1 x BEL/Signaal RAWL 02 air radar
1 x RAWS 08 air/surface radar
2 x BEL Rashmi navigation radars
1 x EL/M-2221 STGR fire control radar
1 x Plessey Type 904 radar
1 x FT 13-S/M Tacan system
Sonar:
1 x Graseby Type 184M hull-mounted sonar
Electronic warfare
and decoys: 1 x BEL Ajanta ESM
Decoy:
2 x Knebworth Corvus chaff launchers
Armament: 2 x 40mm Bofors AA guns


16 x Barak SAM VL cells
Aircraft carried: Up to 30
Normally 28 aircraft, including


Sea Harriers Mk.51 and Mk.52
Westland Sea King Mk.42
HAL Chetak
HAL Dhruv


And another thing , the carrier does not carries 1-2 planes as u have assumed ,
it operates a fleet of 11 sea harriers and 14 Helicopters including KA28 for awec , Sea Kings for antisubmarine warfare , Druvs for utility

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well Virat is a carrier , and we don't have a carrier , we are talking about F22P frigates

But virat is getting old how much does it costs to operate it ?

16 x Barak SAM VL cells hmm interesting point
Aircraft carried: Up to 30 hmm interesting point

By 2015 we will see exactly what is the shape for navies of both countries

But any Indian carriers woudl not be a match against Chinese Missiles (Anti Carrier)

Again we are very far from aquiring a carrier we just want to maintain a modest but strong navy

 

[khurasaan1]

right now its better to buy off the shelf instead of to make one!
u kno how much it cost to develop a system!? and then the system's cost itself!
we dont have that much money right now...SO first we need to build up our economy so we can finance the developing cost!

I understand ure view ..but after discussing with the technical engineers/pplz i came to the conclusion that they can manage to develop the systems even in poor economy.They told me one thing"Necessity is the mother of invention".They told me one thing that if u want to dominate the world in TECH then u gotta use ure brain and move ure arms/legs otherwise u will be left like a disrespectful beggar in this world Alhamdolillah they are working out everythng successfully...

 

[khurasaan1]

Well AZAD ,
I must have read about 500 of your post and i dont know what to call u
Sometimes your posts are over ambitious , sometime down right reidiculus and some other time funny .
By reading your posts i can make out that u are a college going kid with a laptop , or a guy in his 40s pretending to act like his son.

I GUESS U ARE HERE FOR PROVIDING COMIC RELIEF

Everybody is a learner in this world either old or young. Somebody learn from his experiences some from otherz......Luckyz r those who finds the right path and takes it...

 

[Penguin]

And the Shivalik class frigates wich have a full load displacement of about 5500 tons.

But Shivalik - like German F123 - is not a specialized AAW ship, like the ones I mentioned (otherwise I might have mentioned P17 myself.)

 

[Donatello]

Destroyers (DD or DDG)

A destroyer is currently the largest type of surface combatant currently under construction for world navies. Destroyers have steadily grown in size (now 5,000 to 10,000 tons), expense (nearly US$700 million apiece) and capability. Generally, a destroyer is considered to be a ship that has all of the sensors (including a sophisticated phased-array radar), combat systems, and weapons needed to operate in a high-threat environment. A number of world navies are currently building ships that, while called frigates, more accurately represent destroyers in size and capability. Examples include the Spanish F-100, the German F-124, and the Dutch De Zeven Provincien classes (all are highly capable ships displacing over 5,000 tons and carrying phased-array radars).

Frigates (FF or FFG)

A frigate is a medium-sized surface combatant (between 2,000 and 5,000 tons) that is either suited for one specific role (anti-submarine warfare or anti-air warfare), or has lesser all-around capabilities than a destroyer. A frigate may be less capable than a destroyer, but is still a relatively sophisticated and expensive (averaging around US$325 million apiece) platform. A frigate is generally the smallest surface combatant that can conduct extended blue-water missions in a high-threat environment.

Corvettes (FS)

Corvettes are fast (around 25 knots or better), well-armed ships that displace between 700 and 2000 tons. A corvette is generally not intended for extended ocean-going operations, and is best suited for regional operations. Corvettes are generally the smallest platforms capable of accommodating the sensors, weapons, and combat systems needed to operate in a medium threat environment. Corvettes are sometimes referred to as light frigates (FFLs). It can be assumed that the hull design for a corvette and that of an offshore patrol vessel are very similar. The differences will be in propulsion and outfitting. Corvettes will have higher speed and therefore less endurance and range than OPV, much greater armament, and less space for provisions and habitability.

AMI International - NSPD Sample

At 3,144 tonnes and considering its armement and sensor suite F22P is a Frigate, comparable to e.g. the Italian Lupo/Artigliere class, though the Type 53H3 (Jiangwei2) from which she derives displaces only 2,393 tons full load and with similar armement and sensors is considered a Light Frigate by many.

(Reposted from another thread: http://www.defence.pk/forums/naval-forces/33514-what-difference-between-frigate-destroyer.html )

That's an informative post!


But keep in mind that Corvettes better be utilized properly or they are sitting ducks. Take for the example the latest stat of the art anti submarine corvette of the South Korean Navy which was sunk so easily.

I mean how the hell does one torpedo sink a modern ship that is designed to counter the exact same threat...??

So PN better look for more frigates...larger displacement more room to play with weapons.

 

[Archie]

That's an informative post!


But keep in mind that Corvettes better be utilized properly or they are sitting ducks. Take for the example the latest stat of the art anti submarine corvette of the South Korean Navy which was sunk so easily.

I mean how the hell does one torpedo sink a modern ship that is designed to counter the exact same threat...??

So PN better look for more frigates...larger displacement more room to play with weapons.

Well ,every thing is dependent on the quality of radars , sensors , armaments , which a ship carries , now a days RCS of ship is also important , lower the RCS better is the chance of survival
These days a large corvette can be more capable than a frigate
For instance the Type 28 ASW Corvette which the indian navy is acquiring , is considered more capable than the Brahmaputra Class Frigates of the indian navy and has a much smaller RCS thanks to use of stealth features

Class and type: Project 28
Type: ASW Corvette
Displacement: 2,500 tons[2]
Length: 109.1 m
Beam: 13.7 m
Propulsion: 4 x Pielstick 12 PA6 STC Diesel engines
CODAD, DCNS raft mounted gearbox
Speed: 32 knots
Sensors and
processing systems: Revati Central Acquisition Radar
EL/M-2221 STGR fire-control radar
BEL Shikari
BEL RAWL02 (Signaal LW08) antenna communication grid - Gigabit Ethernet-based integrated ship borne data network, with a fiber optic cable backbone running through the vessel
HUMSA (Hull Mounted Sonar Array)


Bomber Electronic warfare (EW) suites - BEL Ajanta
Electronic warfare
and decoys: DESEAVER MK
Armament: 1 X 76.2 mm Oto SRGM
2 x AK-630M CIWS
6 x 3M54 Klub
2 X RBU-6000 (IRL) anti-submarine rocket launcher
Barak SAM


Torpedo tubes
Aircraft carried: 1 Westland Sea King Mk.42B

Kamorta class Corvettes are the Indian Navy's next-generation anti submarine warfare platform, built under Project 28. They are being built at Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE), Kolkata. The first corvette is expected to be delivered to the Indian Navy in 2012. All the four corvettes are planned to be handed over to the Indian Navy by the year 2014.[3][4]

Project 28 is the primary project for driving indigenisation and developing the warship construction industry in India.[1] The aim with this project is to stipulate unprecedented standards while providing opportunities to Indian vendors to develop expertise with the technology.

 

[PAKISTANI TIGER]

GUYS WHY WE NOT TAKE STEALTH FRIGATES AND ADVANCED FRIGATES FROM FRANCE

 

[Quwa]

GUYS WHY WE NOT TAKE STEALTH FRIGATES AND ADVANCED FRIGATES FROM FRANCE

Too expensive and probably not worth it...besides, China is emerging in this area, and so is Turkey - both excellent alternatives to the French. Though if Pakistan had the money, it'd probably love investing in the German MEKO Delta.