15 Jordanian F-16 for sale

[Sinnerman108]

&& @Bratva

Aviation city is a step too late I am afraid.
We had Kamra, and we had AWC, What failed there is again going to fail PAF,
It's called mismanagement and rayban culture by the men in blue. I am witness to and suffered first hand several times.
@Oscar may have some interesting things to add too.

Poverty is a symptom not the disease itself.
Poverty happens when expense is not managed and exceeds income.

Question must be asked, if PAF has not been purchasing the right kit then what is contributing to overwhelming expense ?
and poverty is not a recent phenomenon, it seems since 1971 we have been in the same mindset ?
The sabres did the job in 65, and we thought we could yank them again in 71.
Fast forward to 2015 and we are doing the same thing again.

The men in blue have failed to manage their resources, and introduce any level of efficiency to talk about since decades.
Unless this changes nothing will get better.

Saw your profile. What was the negative rating for??
A


76. The last two were just a part of the original 4 that went to US for MLU and returned later.This addition if it happens will bring it up to 91. We could still do with one more squadron of either MLUs or new to bring us upto where we whould have been.
A


15 years is a long time. I think from the perspective of platforms this is the last western platfrom that we will buy. The next inroad PAF makes will be a local/hybrid effort which is the logical progression from the JFT building phase and subsequent development. My thinking is that the days of 5th generation fighters will be numbered and the aviation industry may quickly move over to 6th generation unmanned platform for obvious reasons as capacity and capabilities and demands increase. So what happens in 2030 remains to be seen but I suspect our reliance on the west will decrease significantly.
A


Interesting post. The aviation city is a step in the direction that you mention. PAFs history is one of resource constraints,and embargoes after embargoes (The french one in 99 hurt us the most in many ways). Some of them were obvious and others not so obvious. These short term decisions as you state are a rssult of these two factors. Out of the box solutions can be thought of in the light of availability of these two factors along with availability of suitable solution. I dare say if you sit in the Chair of ACM of PAF you will end up making those same short term solutions. At the end of the day beggars can't be choosers.
A

 

[SQ8]

The men in blue have failed to manage their resources, and introduce any level of efficiency to talk about since decades.
Unless this changes nothing will get better.

On that you can blame the entire nation. But as such, it is better to hear tales from the very seniors as to where the rot set in and where the few brave with some spine fought such rot back. There are horrifying tales of corruption and mismanagement in procurement, but nothing that tops the national average.

However, in the words of the person responsible for this whom I am honoured to know personally.

Out of the three branches, (and @MastanKhan would to surprised to hear this out of my post) the PAF is the MOST corrupt in terms of average kickbacks and dual dealings. That does not mean that the Army isnt corrupt or does not have higher monetary value in corruption, but that within a ratio of officers engaging in corruption; the PAF (and PN close behind) leads. The army simply has too many officers trying to get the same pie and also had a greater surveillance of MI on it.
@Bilal Khan 777 may not agree, but I take that man's words very seriously.

that does not mean they are complete traitors either. Because in the national average of corrutpion in Pakistan which is generally high(top to bottom); it is still wrangled by more honest officers as well. To sum it up, the PAF has a lot of corruption but unlike the Army; lesser "yes men" as well. So its a constant tussle.

On this note, the much maligned Adm Masour ul Haq actually introduced some very good reforms in the Navy and also did positive spares deals that benefited the PN in the long run; what can you say to that?

 

[Quwa]

On that you can blame the entire nation. But as such, it is better to hear tales from the very seniors as to where the rot set in and where the few brave with some spine fought such rot back. There are horrifying tales of corruption and mismanagement in procurement, but nothing that tops the national average.

However, in the words of the person responsible for this whom I am honoured to know personally.

Out of the three branches, (and @MastanKhan would to surprised to hear this out of my post) the PAF is the MOST corrupt in terms of average kickbacks and dual dealings. That does not mean that the Army isnt corrupt or does not have higher monetary value in corruption, but that within a ratio of officers engaging in corruption; the PAF (and PN close behind) leads. The army simply has too many officers trying to get the same pie and also had a greater surveillance of MI on it.
@Bilal Khan 777 may not agree, but I take that man's words very seriously.

that does not mean they are complete traitors either. Because in the national average of corrutpion in Pakistan which is generally high(top to bottom); it is still wrangled by more honest officers as well. To sum it up, the PAF has a lot of corruption but unlike the Army; lesser "yes men" as well. So its a constant tussle.

On this note, the much maligned Adm Masour ul Haq actually introduced some very good reforms in the Navy and also did positive spares deals that benefited the PN in the long run; what can you say to that?

Quick note. We malign Zardari for pillaging the national exchequer, but bad government has other - potentially permanent - hazards as well. One can always recover from a loss of $10 billion or $20 billion U.S. directly stolen from one's politicians. Yes, it takes time, but with a well managed economy and wealth distribution and taxation system, it is possible.

What one cannot easily recover from is being locked into paying several billion dollars a year on external debt in perpetuity as a result of economic mismanagement, incompetence and corruption.

I'd much prefer Zardari or Sharif taking cash and running away from the country, but what these guys do is take loans, then put loans towards shady policies and development schemes (loaded with old school corruption), those programs tend to not be that useful, and the country is beset with debt.

That bad debt is what kills in the long-term.

 

[Sinnerman108]

@Oscar && @Quwa @araz @Bratva

Your statements regarding corruption are fine, however please make a differentiation.
We are NOT talking about the average joe on the street.
We are talking about men in blue, who have undergone rigorous character building and decorated as officers
above all.
( it's a separate thing, once they wear ray bans they consider themselves Gods above all ).

What I want to focus upon is mismanagement and lack of capability more than corruption.
There is just no excuse for those two.

Anyway, another thought.

India already has accurate electronics signatures of F-16s, they are getting to train against them too courtesy
uncle sam.

How wise would be to keep inducting the same platform that your enemy is getting to know in more detail by the day ?

On that you can blame the entire nation. But as such, it is better to hear tales from the very seniors as to where the rot set in and where the few brave with some spine fought such rot back. There are horrifying tales of corruption and mismanagement in procurement, but nothing that tops the national average.

However, in the words of the person responsible for this whom I am honoured to know personally.

Out of the three branches, (and @MastanKhan would to surprised to hear this out of my post) the PAF is the MOST corrupt in terms of average kickbacks and dual dealings. That does not mean that the Army isnt corrupt or does not have higher monetary value in corruption, but that within a ratio of officers engaging in corruption; the PAF (and PN close behind) leads. The army simply has too many officers trying to get the same pie and also had a greater surveillance of MI on it.
@Bilal Khan 777 may not agree, but I take that man's words very seriously.

that does not mean they are complete traitors either. Because in the national average of corrutpion in Pakistan which is generally high(top to bottom); it is still wrangled by more honest officers as well. To sum it up, the PAF has a lot of corruption but unlike the Army; lesser "yes men" as well. So its a constant tussle.

On this note, the much maligned Adm Masour ul Haq actually introduced some very good reforms in the Navy and also did positive spares deals that benefited the PN in the long run; what can you say to that?

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar && @Quwa @araz @Bratva

Your statements regarding corruption are fine, however please make a differentiation.
We are NOT talking about the average joe on the street.
We are talking about men in blue, who have undergone rigorous character building and decorated as officers
above all.
( it's a separate thing, once they wear ray bans they consider themselves Gods above all ).

What I want to focus upon is mismanagement and lack of capability more than corruption.
There is just no excuse for those two.

Anyway, another thought.

India already has accurate electronics signatures of F-16s, they are getting to train against them too courtesy
uncle sam.

How wise would be to keep inducting the same platform that your enemy is getting to know in more detail by the day ?

But that is part of the problem. How can you separate the men in blue from the average joe? After all, it is the average joe that becomes the man in blue. Our biggest fault in defining corruption is that we put people on either too high a pedestal or drag them through the mud.

We also have accurate electronic signatures of MKI's , Mirages and Mig-29s.. nothing new for both sides to ferret out ELINT on each other.

 

[Gufi]

That bad debt is what kills in the long-term.

Spot on, but honestly recovered billions even a few can give us a good cushion of an year of the budget being used for other things other then returning loans. Maybe a year of actual development would push this country back on it's feet. This is a defence forum and we discuss things other then the economy without understanding that the real wars now are won before the first bullet is fired.
To bring nations with a strong military to their knees just needs empty stomachs and unpaid or underpaid people. There should have been a war against corruption along with a war on terror because both are intermingled. Sadly, our nation and its people do not learn from their mistakes and are in a cycle which will end up with a massive eflux of qualified individuals and a nations of mediocre, middling people.

 

[Sinnerman108]

But that is part of the problem. How can you separate the men in blue from the average joe? After all, it is the average joe that becomes the man in blue. Our biggest fault in defining corruption is that we put people on either too high a pedestal or drag them through the mud.

We also have accurate electronic signatures of MKI's , Mirages and Mig-29s.. nothing new for both sides to ferret out ELINT on each other.

I disagree; your statement means that PAF Risalpur inculcates practically nothing.
If that is so, then the purpose of that place is ZERO.

a. Radars working now ? or the AWACS in proper hanger ?
b. how much training do we get against Mig29s, MKIs, Tornadoes, etc ? Indians are getting it plenty.

 

[Spectre]

Quick note. We malign Zardari for pillaging the national exchequer, but bad government has other - potentially permanent - hazards as well. One can always recover from a loss of $10 billion or $20 billion U.S. directly stolen from one's politicians. Yes, it takes time, but with a well managed economy and wealth distribution and taxation system, it is possible.

What one cannot easily recover from is being locked into paying several billion dollars a year on external debt in perpetuity as a result of economic mismanagement, incompetence and corruption.

I'd much prefer Zardari or Sharif taking cash and running away from the country, but what these guys do is take loans, then put loans towards shady policies and development schemes (loaded with old school corruption), those programs tend to not be that useful, and the country is beset with debt.

That bad debt is what kills in the long-term.

Only solution in such a case is one which most aren't going to like in a defence forum

Austerity measures

Reduce major expenditures to bare minimum which would mean for Pakistan to cut down it's military and nuclear weapons program

Balance budgets - No more financing deficits from external loans, all interest and principle component due must be paid from Govt revenues

Disinvestment - Disinvestment all non core assets held by Govt which might mean selling of huge tracts of land and public sector companies

This measures would hurt badly but they are also the only means of recovery from an unsustainable financial mess Pakistan is. In real world you can't hope for fairy godmothers like KSA or China to keep bailing you out perpetually. You have to underwrite your cr@p.

India did it and am sure Pakistan too.

 

[Gufi]

We also have accurate electronic signatures of MKI's , Mirages and Mig-29s.. nothing new for both sides to ferret out ELINT on each other.

Would love a detailed analysis from you on the importance of larger planes etc in a war with no real importance of how long the plane can stay in the air compared to wars where a larger radius is needed. Does the single engine theory do justice to our environment and can we do without the larger more expensive planes if we get decent sub systems on our Thunders.

 

[SQ8]

I disagree; your statement means that PAF Risalpur inculcates practically nothing.
If that is so, then the purpose of that place is ZERO.

a. Radars working now ? or the AWACS in proper hanger ?
b. how much training do we get against Mig29s, MKIs, Tornadoes, etc ? Indians are getting it plenty.

I see no interpretation that my statement means any of it. My statement implies that the prevalent corruption in society eventually creeps in. You are overestimating Risalpur when even Annapolis here in the US cannot prevent US Navy Admirals from engaging in billion dollar corruption.

a. Be specific?
b. why does training have to be against Mig-29's(although plenty on deputation), MKIs(exposure with an operator in Africa and with the Chinese MKs, not sure why you would be interested in Tornadoes but plenty both in AE, Deputations with TuAF and RAF.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Quick note. We malign Zardari for pillaging the national exchequer, but bad government has other - potentially permanent - hazards as well. One can always recover from a loss of $10 billion or $20 billion U.S. directly stolen from one's politicians. Yes, it takes time, but with a well managed economy and wealth distribution and taxation system, it is possible.

What one cannot easily recover from is being locked into paying several billion dollars a year on external debt in perpetuity as a result of economic mismanagement, incompetence and corruption.

I'd much prefer Zardari or Sharif taking cash and running away from the country, but what these guys do is take loans, then put loans towards shady policies and development schemes (loaded with old school corruption), those programs tend to not be that useful, and the country is beset with debt.

That bad debt is what kills in the long-term.

really?
zadari as opposed to sharif ?
i prefer the later even if i dont like him. th first guy is a waste of space when compared to sharif.
did zadari achieve anything in the energy sector
http://www.dawn.com/news/1269350/imf-sees-energy-situation-in-pakistan-improving
the gdp was also revised to 5% this fiscal year too. by the imf. its a case of who would you prefer.
persoanlly i perfer authoritarian governments kinda like mushy. and like that of turkey russia and kazahstan and many more.

 

[SQ8]

Would love a detailed analysis from you on the importance of larger planes etc in a war with no real importance of how long the plane can stay in the air compared to wars where a larger radius is needed. Does the single engine theory do justice to our environment and can we do without the larger more expensive planes if we get decent sub systems on our Thunders.

Ive provided plenty of analysis. Im afraid you may have to search for some of these posts. In nutshell, our doctrines are suited to our operational requirements.

 

[Quwa]

really?
zadari as opposed to sharif ?
i prefer the later even if i dont like him. th first guy is a waste of space when compared to sharif.
did zadari achieve anything in the energy sector
http://www.dawn.com/news/1269350/imf-sees-energy-situation-in-pakistan-improving
the gdp was also revised to 5% this fiscal year too. by the imf. its a case of who would you prefer.
persoanlly i perfer authoritarian governments kinda like mushy. and like that of turkey russia and kazahstan and many more.

I didn't say I support Zardari or Sharif. I was making a simple point ... had the policies of Zardari and Sharif just been confined to stealing money through shady means (which isn't uncommon anywhere in the world to be honest), then recovering from theft is a simple matter. But recovering from a systemic mess, like structural debt - which is burdened onto us as a result of a combination of mismanagement and corruption no less - is poison and tough to address for any policymaker. PPP and PML-N are both guilty of it (albeit to varying degrees).

Some will go for severe short-term austerity (i.e. basically cutting all areas of public expenditure and channeling every penny to repaying debt), others might get lucky in the form of getting debt forgiveness and debt consolidation with non-crippling term payments. The latter is ideal, but very difficult to attain. I am surprised CPEC wasn't actually that - i.e. external and internal debt consolidation to China, with Pakistan paying them in fixed term payments along with preferential treatment to the Chinese industry (via government contracts) until the debt is repaid.

It'd be a win-win: Pakistan's fiscal budget gets clear of debt servicing to a great degree, China ultimately gets its money back, and the Chinese economy profits from Pakistan's budget (on top of the repayment scheme). Does Pakistan end up with only Chinese trains, Chinese planes, Chinese ships, Chinese roads, Chinese dams, etc? Sure, but at least it's something.

 

[Gufi]

Ive provided plenty of analysis. Im afraid you may have to search for some of these posts. In nutshell, our doctrines are suited to our operational requirements.

will do and please continue ur simulations... they were a change from the mostly troll infested threads here....

 

[Falcon26]

I disagree; your statement means that PAF Risalpur inculcates practically nothing.
If that is so, then the purpose of that place is ZERO.

a. Radars working now ? or the AWACS in proper hanger ?
b. how much training do we get against Mig29s, MKIs, Tornadoes, etc ? Indians are getting it plenty.

The PAF trains frequently against the SU-30MKK & its derivatives of PLAAF. In terms of Dissimilar air combat trainings, in my view PAF places much greater emphasis in this field than the IAF. Institutions like Combat Commanders School of PAF are highly regarded globally and increase the skill level of its pilots. Problem with PAF is not DACT trainings, it's the issue of technological gap. At this rate, the tech gap between PAF & IAF will be generations worth in a decade if unchecked.