The new enemy...

[SarthakGanguly]

ISIS was allowed to grow and feed on innocents.

ISIS has massive and near total support in the Sunni areas that it rules now. Thousands have been killed by the US bombs, yet hundreds of thousands have replenished their ranks. US is guilty of not being hard enough, of taking half measures, but not of the rise of Islamism.

Justification is an easy term to peddle. Babu Bajrangi also felt justified and a hundred arguments can be made in favor of him. Does not make him anything but a vile murderer.

ISIS/Boko Haram/al Qaeda/LeJ/LeT/al Shabab/etc etc are themselves responsible for their own growth. Various factors may have given them impetus in the last century, but the major ones are simple to identify - the importance of faith, the bloodthirsty determination to 'clean' 'Muslim' lands and not considering non Muslims as humans. The rest like occupation of Gaza/West Bank etc are nothing but excuses. By that logic Tibetans would have bombed the Chinese embassies with relish the world over. There are a hundred different political secessionist movements in the world. The Islamic ones are just different(by that I mean inherently genocidal) by their very nature. No posturing will hide this fact.

No...they've been manipulated to America's advantage. Btw it doesnt apply to all.

Every country manipulates the other. The Vietnamese were supported by the SU and the USA (the North and the South respectively). They don't blow each other up NOW and lay the blame on either TODAY. That's what civilized people do. Regardless of the source of funding, people move on, especially when confronted with a disturbing and uncomfortable past.

 

[Levina]

I agree with most of what you wrote but you blamed only some of the guilty parties,Teach.
We both know that when people are ''happy'',they have no reason to protest.
Both Syria and Iraq had exclusive(Sunnis out) governments,had they included all parts of the population,there would never have been sectarian violence in both countries.
Both Maliki and Assad should be blamed first,then the rest.
ISIS is bad,but you also need to look at the choices people in both countries have,either flee the country,live in a refugee camp and forget about ever returning,or you can fight against the regime.
The FSA is a joke,no chance against the regime but ISIS kicks azz,so the choice is obvious,even if you are against their philosophy.

Nobody has called Assad an angel, he's just a lesser evil.

 

[Arsalan]

Nobody has called Assad an angel, he's just a lesser evil.

lesser evil than ISIS you are saying?

What about the Afghans then? you think Taliban were responsible for more brutality and killings compared to what the coalition forces have done? that makes them the lesser evil? to me, they are both the same, both are wrong in what they are doing, miss guided, either by wrongly conveyed teachings or by lust of power for themselves.

Look, in international geopolitics, things change all the time. At one time it served the national interest to support the jihadis against the USSR. Then things changed after the breakup of the USSR. Then things changed again after 9/11. Now things will change again. And so on. What is your point? That USA at one time supported certain organizations? Of course, whatever serves the national interest. USA attacked Vietnam too, but now there is increasing trade. So showing a photo of the mujaheddin in the Oval Office has no importance today, except in the historical context, or to say that USA supported the predecessors of Al-Qaeda. At one time OBL may been a supported agent. Then things changed. What are we supposed to conclude here? Eternal damnation for USA because steps taken a quarter century ago have changed with the state of flux of international geopolitics? No, it is the just normal way things are, and not just with USA, with all countries.

I hope you are not trying to present this as a JUSTIFICATION for US supporting terrorists, if it is just a "that is how it is and how it will be" kind of statement then fine but if it is a justification for all the wrong doings then i will need to remind you of thread where we were discussing the interference of army in government affairs, the reasons, as you said and i agree, are not JUSTIFICATION but just a a reason, we hope things improve on that front. I hope they do on this US supporting terrorists side as well.

 

[Levina]

What about the Afghans then? you think Taliban were responsible for more brutality and killings compared to what the coalition forces have done? that makes them the lesser evil? to me, they are both the same, both are wrong in what they are doing, miss guided, either by wrongly conveyed teachings or by lust of power for themselves.

Lesser evil if scale of destruction and killing is taken as the yard stick; Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and so many shadow wars- America leads by a huge margin.

 

[VCheng]

I hope you are not trying to present this as a JUSTIFICATION for US supporting terrorists, if it is just a "that is how it is and how it will be" kind of statement then fine but if it is a justification for all the wrong doings then i will need to remind you of thread where we were discussing the interference of army in government affairs, the reasons, as you said and i agree, are not JUSTIFICATION but just a a reason, we hope things improve on that front. I hope they do on this US supporting terrorists side as well.

Please note that there should be no confusion between the sovereign right of all countries equally to pursue national interests, and illegal usurpation of power by reason of manufactured crises by the Armies of certain countries such as declaration of Martial Law and meddling in internal political affairs.

 

[Arsalan]

Please note that there should be no confusion between the sovereign right of all countries equally to pursue national interests, with illegal usurpation of power by reason of manufactured crises by the Armies of certain countries such as declaration of Martial Law and meddling in internal political affairs.

perhaps it is just another way of saying "sada kutta kuta, twada kuta tommy"

The funding of terrorists organization, either by US, Pakistan, India or Saudi Arab, ALL are illegal and CANNOT be justified, not even in the name of "National Interest" it may be something common, something every one is doing but not JUSTIFIED!

 

[VCheng]

perhaps it is just another way of saying "sada kutta kuta, twada kuta tommy"

The funding of terrorists organization, either by US, Pakistan, India or Saudi Arab, ALL are illegal and CANNOT be justified, not even in the name of "National Interest" it may be something common, something every one is doing but not JUSTIFIED!

"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." - Harry's Game by Gerald Seymour, 1975.

 

[Arsalan]

"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." - Harry's Game by Gerald Seymour, 1975.

Exactly, now any one of these men can be ours!! not necessarily that the terrorist one is ours and freedom fighters is yours,, ALWAYS can work other way around as well.
Anyway, I won’t deviate from the point I was putting forward, all this, is a reason, not justification. That is how it is done but that is not what is right!

 

[VCheng]

Exactly, now any one of these men can be ours!! not necessarily that the terrorist one is ours and freedom fighters is yours,, ALWAYS can work other way around as well.
Anyway, I won’t deviate from the point I was putting forward, all this, is a reason, not justification. That is how it is done but that is not what is right!

As long as the distinction between equal sovereign rights and illegal extra-Constitutional steps is maintained, I have no problem with accepting your point of view.

 

[Arsalan]

As long as the distinction between equal sovereign rights and illegal extra-Constitutional steps is maintained, I have no problem with accepting your point of view.

Well as long as you can agree that these so called "Sovereign Rights" are no justification of brutally annihilating two countries killing literally millions and all based on Intel that too date is a point of debate in the same country carrying out these acts of barbaric terrorism, we are on same page. These sovereign rights may be a REASON for these attacks but NOTHING can justify such acts of barbaric terrorism.

 

[VCheng]

Well as long as you can agree that these so called "Sovereign Rights" are no justification of brutally annihilating two countries killing literally millions and all based on Intel that too date is a point of debate in the same country carrying out these acts of barbaric terrorism, we are on same page. These sovereign rights may be a REASON for these attacks but NOTHING can justify such acts of barbaric terrorism.

Of course, as long as it is recognized that USA is not the only country to wage war in pursuit of its national interests. Singling any one country out is biased, that is all, no matter which country.

 

[Arsalan]

Of course, as long as it is recognized that USA is not the only country to wage war in pursuit of its national interests. Singling any one country out is biased, that is all, no matter which country.

OK, as long as we can agree that US, not being THE ONLY one still sure is THE LEADING state to commit this act of terrorism/aggression. Come one, we are getting to a resolution now!! @levina see we are getting along pretty well,, AGAIN!

 

[Levina]

! @levina see we are getting along pretty well,AGAIN!

Again???
Did I miss something???

 

[VCheng]

OK, as long as we can agree that US, not being THE ONLY one still sure is THE LEADING state to commit this act of terrorism/aggression. Come one, we are getting to a resolution now!! @levina see we are getting along pretty well,, AGAIN!

No more and no less than any other dominant nation in history. Just the same as the Ottoman Empire in Armenia, for example.

 

[Levina]

No more and no less than any other dominant nation in history. Just the same as the Ottoman Empire in Armenia, for example.

Ottoman empire and Hitler had limited reach, unlike America.