The new enemy...

[VCheng]

at least own up top your own role in the royal mess up we have in Pakistan today.

Sir, USA paid good money to buy out Pakistan's participation in the jihad that brought down USSR. Your outrage should be directed at those who sold out Pakistan's long term national interests for their own gains, not at USA.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Sir, USA paid good money to buy out Pakistan's participation in the jihad that brought down USSR. Your outrage should be directed at those who sold out Pakistan's long term national interests for their own gains, not at USA.

Indeed it did. If you notice I blamed Pak, Saudia and USA. The reason I mention USA is have a look at US media and US government. Pakistan is lampooned whilst there appears to be selective amnesia about the US role in the cock up. The US approach is dump the blame on Pakistan. Never has there been the honest appraisal that we ( US ) were 1/3 to blame for this. Instead Pakistan get's 3/3 blame. Of course Saudi oil gives them immunity.

Brzezinski: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

At least Brzezinski had the decency to speak the truth when he says "some stirred up Moslems" for the price of "liberation of Central Europe". However this fact is ignored in US official narrative and the mainstram discourse entirely jumps over this nd instead selectively Pakistan get's pilloried helped along by eager Indian surogates like Fareed Zakaria who dig in the knife deeper.

Gems like "90% of terrorism" emanates from Pakistan FATA or Pakistan Madaris are nurseries of global jihad". Really? Excuse me but have you forgotten about Operation Cyclone or "Charlie Wilson's war"?

 

[VCheng]

Indeed it did. If you notice I blamed Pak, Saudia and USA. The reason I mention USA is have a look at US media and US government. Pakistan is lampooned whilst there appears to be selective amnesia about the US role in the cock up. The US approach is dump the blame on Pakistan. Never has there been the honest appraisal that we ( US ) were 1/3 to blame for this. Instead Pakistan get's 3/3 blame. Of course Saudi oil gives them immunity.


At least Brzezinski had the decency to speak the truth when he says "some stiired up Moslems" for the price of "liberation of Central Europe". However this fact is ignored in US official narrative and the mainstram discourse entirely jumps over this nd instead selectively Pakistan get's pilloried helped along by eager Indian surogates like Fareed Zakaria who dig in the knife deeper.

Gems like "90% of terrorism" emanates from Pakistan FATA or Pakistan Madaris are nurseries of global jihad". Really? Excuse me but have you forgotten about Operation Cyclone or "Charlie Wilson's war2?

So why would you expect others to propagate your point of view that you deem to be fair? That is the job of the Pakistani media to highlight your point of view. The only way to counter such perceptions is to create a better counter-narrative, not complaints.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

So why would you expect others to propagate your point of view that you deem to be fair? That is the job of the Pakistani media to highlight your point of view. The only way to counter such perceptions is to create a better counter-narrative, not complaints.

This is not about POV. It is about relating what happened yesterday ( 1979-89 ) and in doing so it would help all sides to address the issue properly. By creating a convoluted narrative is not going to help (US) or others. Of course I blame equaly Pak, USA and Saudia in creating the frankenstien that we have in Pakistan.

I resent and detest the people who did this. I think you know I am a secularist and I find it annoying today to see Pakistan turn into religious hell with iliterate clergy spreading hate. These forces were always there but 1979-89 gave them turbo boost.

I think all said and done I and you probably fall on similar ground in our political outlook other than perhaps I am more proactive exponent of Pakistani nationalism then you are.

 

[VCheng]

This is not about POV. It is about relating what happened yesterday ( 1979-89 ) and in doing so it would help all sides to address the issue properly. By creating a convoluted narrative is not going to help (US) or others. Of course I blame equaly Pak, USA and Saudia in creating the frankenstien that we have in Pakistan.

I resent and detest the people who did this. I think you know I am a secularist and I find it annoying today to see Pakistan turn into religious hell with iliterate clergy spreading hate. These forces were always there but 1979-89 gave them turbo boost.

I think all said and done I and you probably fall on similar ground in our political outlook other than perhaps I am more proactive exponent of Pakistani nationalism then you are.

There is nothing convoluted in what I have said. It is straightforward and fair. Nationalism by definition is emotive, and therefore ill-suited to be analyzed logically. I remain utterly non-emotional in such matters, that is perhaps the only major difference between our points of view, Sir.

There is no else to blame for what Pakistan has become today but Pakistan itself, and the solution will come from nowhere but Pakistan itself. Let me be very clear, once again.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

There is nothing convoluted in what I have said. It is straightforward and fair. Nationalism by definition is emotive, and therefore ill-suited to be analyzed logically. I remain utterly non-emotional in such matters, that is perhaps the only major difference between our points of view, Sir.

There is no else to blame for what Pakistan has become today but Pakistan itself, and the solution will come from nowhere but Pakistan itself. Let me be very clear, once again.

Yes, I agree there. The only solution is going to come from Pakistan. When I said "nationalism" I meant that emotional connect we have a with a intangible concept. If you don't then it becomes simple measure of using cost benefit analysis. By that measure UK has given me far more than Pakistan has. Frankly I should not even bother with Pakistan. Indeed in a sense why would I want to waste my time on PDF?

Ps. Please read post #12 of this thread and you will see where you might get chance to see my outlook.
Afghans in Iran

 

[VCheng]

Yes, I agree there. The only solution is going to come from Pakistan. When I said "nationalism" I meant that emotional connect we have a with a intangible concept. If you don't then it becomes simple measure of using cost benefit analysis. By that measure UK has given me far more than Pakistan has. Frankly I should not even bother with Pakistan. Indeed in a sense why would I want to waste my time on PDF?

Again, it is not an all or none decision. It is appropriate to remain engaged where possible, and do what is possible, rather than withdrawing completely. Nationalism is a concept is fine to believe in, but it is no substitute for rational thought, and certainly prone to misuse as the ultimate cover to shut down all debate, under which tyranny and ignorance inevitably flourish.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Again, it is not an all or none decision. It is appropriate to remain engaged where possible, and do what is possible, rather than withdrawing completely. Nationalism is a concept is fine to believe in, but it is no substitute for rational thought, and certainly prone to misuse as the ultimate cover to shut down all debate, under which tyranny and ignorance inevitably flourish.

I support 100% free speach. In fact I was thinking of opening a thread on secularism but I was advised not to. Free speech is the only weapon we have to fight ignorence and hope to find solutions to our problems. See post #12 please and you will see my stance on things.

Afghans in Iran

 

[VCheng]

I support 100% free speach. In fact I was thinking of opening a thread on secularism but I was advised not to. Free speech is the only weapon we have to fight ignorence and hope to find solutions to our problems. See post #12 please and you will see my stance on things.

Afghans in Iran

LOL. The real problem is those who are giving this sort of "advice".

 

[Indus Pakistan]

LOL. The real problem is those who are giving this sort of "advice".

I think our views on secularism do align. So on that subject did you know I recently found 2.5 million reasons that validate secularism for Pakistan?

You can help me out by searching for reasons in your neck of woods?

 

[VCheng]

I think our views on secularism do align. So on that subject did you know I recently found 2.5 million reasons that validate secularism for Pakistan?

I have said many times here on PDF that unless Pakistan sets right the wrong foundation set by the Objectives Resolution, it is condemned to its present hell. Need I be more blunt than that? Of course, it raises all sorts of enemies here, but at least I do try to say the right thing.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

I have said many times here o PDF that unless Pakistan sets right the wrong foundation set by the Objectives Resolution, it is condemned to its present hell. Need I be more blunt than that? Of course, it raises all sorts of enemies here, but at least I do try to say the right thing.

Well we don't come here to make friends now do we? Anyway are you not going ask me what 2.5 million reasons I discovered that validate secularism?

 

[VCheng]

Well we don't come here to make friends now do we? Anyway are you not going ask me what 2.5 million reasons I discovered that validate secularism?

Yes, I would, but that deserves its own thread, methinks.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Yes, I would, but that deserves its own thread, methinks.

We have 2.5 million Muslims in UK. More are on the way. So clearly that is 2.5 million reasons why secularism is NOT inimical to Islam. Argument won !!!

Or put it another way the following does not hold fit :-

Secularism is acceptable in UK
Secularism is toxic in Pakistan

 

[VCheng]

We have 2.5 million Muslims in UK. More are on the way. So clearly that is 2.5 million reasons why secularism is NOT inimical to Islam. Argument won !!!

This is not even an argument, but a universal truth. Religion has no business being intertwined with matters of State.