BVR IDAS?

[Myth_buster_1]

Could we possibly see a BVR IDAS for U-boats in coming years? Imagine what kind of devastation effect it will have on anti-sub air crafts with its IMO 60-80 KM range!
Please discuss.

 

[paritosh]

Growler...you remember the time we had quite a heated debate on how the type-214 can be devastating for the P-8I with the IDAS?
if the IDAS goes BVR..I'd eat my words and acknowledge that the type-214 would have a higher chance of killing against being killed.It is the precise point I was talking about.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Growler...you remember the time we had quite a heated debate on how the type-214 can be devastating for the P-8I with the IDAS?
if the IDAS goes BVR..I'd eat my words and acknowledge that the type-214 would have a higher chance of killing against being killed.It is the precise point I was talking about.

You are very right my friend. i was never acknowledging that Type-214 has an edge over P-8 with WVR IDAS. however my point was... its very hard for anti-sub aircrafts to hunt small stealthy U-boats and its likely they have to decent to 1000 feet..
THe germans dont have to reinvent the wheel all they have to do is find a way to turn this missile into BVR..

 

[Arsalan]

can you come up with the specs of this missile system. it will be good for a review!!

regards!

 

[Myth_buster_1]

can you come up with the specs of this missile system. it will be good for a review!!

regards!

Are you talking about the WVR IDAS?

Go to this link

in brief. IDAS is wire guided multi purpose WVR which can target light land and sea targets as well as flying aircraft..

 

[paritosh]

You are very right my friend. i was never acknowledging that Type-214 has an edge over P-8 with WVR IDAS. however my point was... its very hard for anti-sub aircrafts to hunt small stealthy U-boats and its likely they have to decent to 1000 feet..
THe germans dont have to reinvent the wheel all they have to do is find a way to turn this missile into BVR..

the current IDAS has a double stage propulsion system right?
one is by the use of a rotor...meant for it's travel upwards to the surface...and the other is a rocket motor based propulsion system to propel it in air...
IMO...the rocket motor is fine...since the real BVR would involve the ability to launch the IDAS from greater depths(so that the P-8 would have to struggle to detect the type-218's location)
a more capable underwater propulsion system would be needed....not a difficult thing to achieve...as unlike on ground..where gravity plays a negative role...buoyancy(can be achieved by the use of small air pump operated balast tanks) would help increase range...

are you aware of this concept being used in practice?

 

[Arsalan]

it already is a ver lethal system, if we can get it BVR then it will be great!!

will they be comming with U214??
i guess it is premature to think about this at the moment!!

regards!

 

[wild peace]

Happy Defence Day to all of you,

May Pakistan Live long,
Inshallah!

 

[PakShaheen79]

the current IDAS has a double stage propulsion system right?
one is by the use of a rotor...meant for it's travel upwards to the surface...and the other is a rocket motor based propulsion system to propel it in air...
IMO...the rocket motor is fine...since the real BVR would involve the ability to launch the IDAS from greater depths(so that the P-8 would have to struggle to detect the type-218's location)
a more capable underwater propulsion system would be needed....not a difficult thing to achieve...as unlike on ground..where gravity plays a negative role...buoyancy(can be achieved by the use of small air pump operated balast tanks) would help increase range...

are you aware of this concept being used in practice?

But from where this BVR range starts? From launching tube of sub or from surface of sea, From your post it seems it start from lunching tube of sub and if sub has sink deep and wanted to launch missile it needs more powerful under water propulsion. Right whereas rocket motor for above sea will remain same. This originates another point that range from sea surface into air will not change as we are only modifying under water propulsion system of missile.

But if I have understand above correctly then it does not make any sense of complete BVR. U-214 can dive max till 400 feet into water if it has to launch from there with modified under water propulsion and same old above sea level propulsion then what is point of calling it BVR as it will be of same old range above water.

Please helppppppppppppppppp.............

 

[Myth_buster_1]

it already is a ver lethal system, if we can get it BVR then it will be great!!

will they be comming with U214??
i guess it is premature to think about this at the moment!!

regards!

No its not premature, IDAS were present in IDEAS-2008 and the missile is compatible with all new U-boats like the type-212/214.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

But from where this BVR range starts? From launching tube of sub or from surface of sea, From your post it seems it start from lunching tube of sub and if sub has sink deep and wanted to launch missile it needs more powerful under water propulsion. Right whereas rocket motor for above sea will remain same. This originates another point that range from sea surface into air will not change as we are only modifying under water propulsion system of missile.

But if I have understand above correctly then it does not make any sense of complete BVR. U-214 can dive max till 400 feet into water if it has to launch from there with modified under water propulsion and same old above sea level propulsion then what is point of calling it BVR as it will be of same old range above water.

Please helppppppppppppppppp.............

Please kindly read the link that i have provided in post# 5.

 

[Penguin]

Somehow fiber-optically-guided and 60-80km range don't seem to be compatible...

From the aviation week article above ( Ares Homepage )

"During the entire flight, data and images of a video camera were transmitted to the submarine via the fiber-optical wire."
Not only does it have a fiber-optic wire trailing it, missile guidance is via video camera? Hardly the most suitable way of acquiring an air target. Helicopters, maybe (slow). Fast flying MPA's (i.e. P8) not so likely.

"IDAS is designed to allow a submerged submarine to attack an anti-submarine warfare helicopter (which is particularly vulnerable when it is deployed in a hover operating its active dipping sonar), or slow-flying maritime patrol aircraft."

In order ot cruise speed

Fokker F-27/F-50/Enforcer (Slowest)
Max Speed: ? (463 km/h / 287 mph ) Enforcer
Cruise speed: 245 kn (454 km/h, 282 mph) F-27
Cruise speed: 280 kn (518 km/h, 322 mph) at 20,000 ft (6,100 m) F-50

Br.1150 Atlantic / Atlantique 2
Maximum speed: 350 kn (650 km/h, 405 mph)
Patrol speed : (320 km/h )

P-3 Orion
Maximum speed: 405 kn (750 km/h)
Cruise speed: 330 kn (610 km/h)

Il-38N/SD May
Maximum speed: 365 kt (675 km/h, 420 mph )
Mission cruise speed: 340 kt (625 km/h, 390 mph )

Tu-95 Bear/ Tu-142M3 Bear
Maximum speed: 500-510 knots (920-625 km/h, 575 mph)
Cruise speed: 384 kn (711 km/h , 442 mph)

P-8 Poseidon MMA (fastest)
Maximum speed: 490 kn (907 km/h)
Cruise speed: 440 kn (815 km/h)

That's a 160kn speed difference between F27 MPA and P-8 MMA, or 110 kn between P-3 and P8!
In other words, the question is whether P-8 qualifies as a slow flying MPA ...

"The missile, launched from standard torpedo tubes, is also suited to perform a precision attack against a pinpoint position on a surface ship (such as the bridge or a helicopter on deck) or against a target ashore."
Which explains the guidance method. The ability to hit a hovering or slow flying air target is bonus, the missile is primarily for land/surface attack.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Please kindly read the link that i have provided in post# 5.

Bor I have read but there is no mention of Range, particularly proposed BVR one, in that post and my original question was from where this BVR will be counted? Article just talk about current capabilities of missile. Hope this will clarify some doubts about my question.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Bor I have read but there is no mention of Range, particularly proposed BVR one, in that post and my original question was from where this BVR will be counted? Article just talk about current capabilities of missile. Hope this will clarify some doubts about my question.

Bro the whole point of this thread is to discuss possibility of BVR IDAS, of course their is no such thing as BVR IDAS at the moment.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Somehow fiber-optically-guided and 60-80km range don't seem to be compatible...

From the aviation week article above ( Ares Homepage )

Of course, the missile would practically fall due to the weight of wire it will be dragging at about lets say 40 KM.

"During the entire flight, data and images of a video camera were transmitted to the submarine via the fiber-optical wire."
Not only does it have a fiber-optic wire trailing it, missile guidance is via video camera? Hardly the most suitable way of acquiring an air target. Helicopters, maybe (slow). Fast flying MPA's (i.e. P8) not so likely.

Main missile components are the imaging IR seeker taken over from IRIS-T, a fiber-optic data link between the control console and the missile as well as a single-stage, solid-propellant rocket motor providing IDAS with a mission range of approx. 20km.

Yest it would be almost impossible for a missile with just a "video camera" guidance system to engage a sea based target let alone a air threat. But thats not the case with IDAS which is pretty much IRIS-T except that it has to carry wire which does effects it maneuverability to some extent.

"IDAS is designed to allow a submerged submarine to attack an anti-submarine warfare helicopter (which is particularly vulnerable when it is deployed in a hover operating its active dipping sonar), or slow-flying maritime patrol aircraft."

In order ot cruise speed

Fokker F-27/F-50/Enforcer (Slowest)
Max Speed: ? (463 km/h / 287 mph ) Enforcer
Cruise speed: 245 kn (454 km/h, 282 mph) F-27
Cruise speed: 280 kn (518 km/h, 322 mph) at 20,000 ft (6,100 m) F-50

Br.1150 Atlantic / Atlantique 2
Maximum speed: 350 kn (650 km/h, 405 mph)
Patrol speed : (320 km/h )

P-3 Orion
Maximum speed: 405 kn (750 km/h)
Cruise speed: 330 kn (610 km/h)

Il-38N/SD May
Maximum speed: 365 kt (675 km/h, 420 mph )
Mission cruise speed: 340 kt (625 km/h, 390 mph )

Tu-95 Bear/ Tu-142M3 Bear
Maximum speed: 500-510 knots (920-625 km/h, 575 mph)
Cruise speed: 384 kn (711 km/h , 442 mph)

P-8 Poseidon MMA (fastest)
Maximum speed: 490 kn (907 km/h)
Cruise speed: 440 kn (815 km/h)

That's a 160kn speed difference between F27 MPA and P-8 MMA, or 110 kn between P-3 and P8!
In other words, the question is whether P-8 qualifies as a slow flying MPA ...

Sorry bro but with all due respect the speed data is pretty much irrelevant in ASuW context. Due to the stealth characteristics of Type-214 any MPA aircraft has to spend hell lot of time loitering above probable area and definitely has to decent to 1000 feet or even below. As a last resort thats where IDAS comes in action against MPA and i believe P-8 is not cruising at top speed.