BVR IDAS?

[Penguin]

But so are the radars and sensors inboard the submarine also active.

All a U212/214 has in terms of radar is a raisable mast mounted Kelvin hughes type 1007 I-band navigation radar (in the sail). This is not used or suited to detecting air target. All other sensors are sonars, which don't detect aircraft.

The submarine is equipped with an integrated DBQS sonar system which has:
- cylindrical array for passive medium-frequency detection;
- a TAS-3 low-frequency towed array sonar;
- FAS-3 flank array sonar for low / medium-frequency detection;
- passive ranging sonar; and
- hostile sonar intercept system.
There is also an active high-frequency mine detection sonar: the Atlas Elektronik MOA 3070.

The search periscope is the Zeiss Optronik SERO 14 with optical rangefinder, thermal imager and global positioning system. The Zeiss SERO 15 attack periscope is equipped with laser rangefinder.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Mmm, not convinced by this argument. Too conspirational. A counter argument would be that in order to make a sale, capabilities tend to get overstated rather than understated.

So you are only waiting for a website to claim a capability only then you will believe it? European defence industries have tendency of revealing their products on time while they tend to present their products in softer manner. heck even pakistan and china dont reveal their new weapon capabilities so quickly.

"The aircraft [P-8A Poseidon MMA] can cruise at high altitude at nearly 926km/h (500kt) and loiter at a speed of 333km/h (180kt) over the sea at a low altitude of 60m."
P-8A Poseidon - Multi-Mission Maritime Aircraft (MMA) - Naval Technology

P-3C loiter speed is actually greater trhan that of P-8!

P-3 Loiter speed at 1,050 ft : 203 kt
Patrol Speed. 235 mph (380km/h)
P-3C Orion - Maritime Patrol and Anti-Submarine Warfare - Naval Technology

still well within the the speed limit of Banshee drone.

But if needed P-8 could get out of the area in a hurry much faster than a P-3C loitering at the same speed on 1 engine to conserve fuel.

i dough it can escape a missile lock so fast.

Still, why refer to hovering helicopters (i.e. those dipping a sonar or dropping sonobouys) and slow flying MPA (i.e. those dropping and listening sonobuoys, using MAD boom etc) only. Why not also refer to helicopters in transit (cruise Speed of a S-70B Seahawk is 272km/hr, very similar to that of a loitering MPA)? Or to MPAs in transit?

I do not know the exact reason why they would say that... political reason? arms control policy? not sure..
anyways... here is a paragraph from aviation weekly.

IDAS is designed to allow a submerged submarine to attack an anti-submarine warfare helicopter (which is particularly vulnerable when it is deployed in a hover operating its active dipping sonar), or slow-flying maritime patrol aircraft.

my argument is not solely based on the fact that the article is telling us that IDAS can fire at slow flying or loitering MPA but the fact that a drone most probably Banshee with a speed of over 300 km was shot down. Of course drone is much much much harder target to detect and shoot then a larger heat signature target like 737.

The more I think about that, the more it seems likely to me that this has to do with detecting the airborne target while submerged: it is passive (noise will provide a general range and bearing for the air target, the missile is launched in that general area and then the IRIS-T seeker may acquire the actual target once it breaks the surface and it in controlled flight.)

i am not a expert so are you but all i can say is that submarines are not such sitting ducks for MPA. i am guessing they do have better situational awareness of MPA other then just wild guess idea of the location.

 

[Penguin]

So you are only waiting for a website to claim a capability only then you will believe it? European defence industries have tendency of revealing their products on time while they tend to present their products in softer manner. heck even pakistan and china dont reveal their new weapon capabilities so quickly.

No further comment (to avoid useless debate)

i dough it can escape a missile lock so fast.

Not missile lock. But consider the missile itself, it is different from IRIS-T and may not be quite as manouverable (different 'wing' configuration) plus IDAS may initially operate in 'man in the loop'-mode (rather than autonomously, like a true AAM). Remember, it is first and foremost a land/surface attack weapon, with secondary anti-air applications.

my argument is not solely based on the fact that the article is telling us that IDAS can fire at slow flying or loitering MPA but the fact that a drone most probably Banshee with a speed of over 300 km was shot down. Of course drone is much much much harder target to detect and shoot then a larger RCS target like 737.

IRIS-T seeker is imiging infra red so RCS is irrelevant. Heat signature is relevant and I'm sure a target drone will be made to mimick the signature of an actual intended target (even is it's own basic signature is small > radar reflectors and/or heat generation).

i am not a expert so are you but all i can say is that submarines are not such sitting ducks for MPA. i am guessing they do have better situational awareness of MPA other then just wild guess idea of the location.

I didn't suggest subs are sitting ducks for MPAs. I think they have very good situational awareness of above water situation, including some awareness of air targets. Aircraft make noise, through their engines but also - in the case of hovering helicopters and very low flying MPAs - through downwash. Sonar dipping or dropping of sonar buoys also makes noise. As sub will use that sound information. And so may have quite a good idea of the general location of an airial target. A wide angle IIR seeker on the missile will do the rest. It is the LOAL (lock on after launch) principle also found in some SAMs (e.g. VL applications of Umkhonto and Mica)

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Not missile lock. But consider the missile itself, it is different from IRIS-T and may not be quite as manouverable (different 'wing' configuration) plus IDAS may initially operate in 'man in the loop'-mode (rather than autonomously, like a true AAM). Remember, it is first and foremost a land/surface attack weapon, with secondary anti-air applications.

the debate is endless..
okay. IRIS-T seeker, wire guided, longer wings, less maneuverability (comparatively to IRIS-T) well capable enough to bring down a loitering MPA. and its merely your own opinion about IDAS being a secondary anti-air weapon.

 

[Penguin]

the debate is endless..

Well no, it's really simple: you have an opinion and so do I. And we can always agree to disagree and leave it at that.

:okay. IRIS-T seeker, wire guided, longer wings, less maneuverability (comparatively to IRIS-T) well capable enough to bring down a loitering MPA.

I'm merely not assuming IDAS performance will be identical to the dedicated AAM Iris-T just because there is a shared IIR sensor being used. There probably is a good reason for the different missile configurations. Each configuration will have certain + and - with respect to hitting targets.

:and its merely your own opinion about IDAS being a secondary anti-air weapon.

Correct, that was my initial impression from readings. And I may come back from that position as I read more. For example, as Jane's notes:

The ASW helicopter is probably the submariner's deadliest foe. Operating from a land base or surface ship, an aircraft can reach a target area rapidly, conduct a persistent search for submarines using its active dipping sonar, and prosecute a torpedo attack with no fear of retaliation from the submerged boat.
The possibility of developing a submarine-launched missile to counter this threat has been under discussion internationally since the 1980s.

Sub plot: Germany heads anti-air missile initiative

Still, I wonder about a quote like this:

Developed by the ARGE IDAS consortium - comprising ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems' Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) division, Diehl BGT Defence and Kongsberg Defence & Aerospace (KDA) - IDAS is intended to provide a precision attack capability against surface and onshore targets and a 'last ditch' self-defence capability against anti-submarine warfare (ASW) helicopters.

Sub plot: Germany heads anti-air missile initiative

A last ditch [air] self-defense capability .... that is not the same as a full attack capability. But perhaps that's just semantics.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Well no, it's really simple: you have an opinion and so do I. And we can always agree to disagree and leave it at that.

yep, you are entitled to your opinion but i am merely stating facts here.

I'm merely not assuming IDAS performance will be identical to the dedicated AAM Iris-T just because there is a shared IIR sensor being used. There probably is a good reason for the different missile configurations. Each configuration will have certain + and - with respect to hitting targets.

A dedicated IRIS-T Sub launch variant would be a over kill for MPA or ASW helicopter. But IDAS is a great multi-purpose defensive missile for coastal land targets like AShM battery, surface vessels like corvettes, and Loitering MPA and ASW helicopters. Infact with the capability for operator on board the submarine to intervene in the course of the missile at any time IDAS will be quite immune to flair counter measures.

A last ditch [air] self-defense capability .... that is not the same as a full attack capability. But perhaps that's just semantics.

And you are still willing to not to except the fact that it downed a drone which mimicked a loitering MPA!

 

[Penguin]

yep, you are entitled to your opinion but i am merely stating facts here.

Right...

A dedicated IRIS-T Sub launch variant would be a over kill for MPA or ASW helicopter.

Why?

But IDAS is a great multi-purpose defensive missile for coastal land targets like AShM battery, surface vessels like corvettes, and Loitering MPA and ASW helicopters.

never said anything against IDAS

Infact with the capability for operator on board the submarine to intervene in the course of the missile at any time IDAS will be quite immune to flair counter measures.

Quite possibly

And you are still willing to not to except the fact that it downed a drone which mimicked a loitering MPA!

Where did I say that?

post 12: "Helicopters, maybe (slow). Fast flying MPA's (i.e. P8) not so likely." And the thread was about BVR IDAS.

Confusing discussing something with debate?

 

[Super Falcon]

so do u think idas can have kill on p 8 or our navy are also buying it with U 214

 

[Penguin]

so do u think idas can have kill on p 8 or our navy are also buying it with U 214

I think P8 has better changes of survival than e.g. Il-38 May. But that doesn't make it immune.

As Idas on U-214, has the deal for U-214s been finalized at all? Or is it still open?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

so do u think idas can have kill on p 8 or our navy are also buying it with U 214

IDAS was successfully launched from submerged type-212 and hit a drone Banshee (which has a speed of 300+ km).... now if it can engage such a hard target with very low IR signature then loitering P-8 (meaning on sub hunt mode it dives down to 1000 feet or so and travels at 250 km) its well with in the kill zone of IDAS.

 

[Super Falcon]

wellll do u think on will buy idas or will go for french exocet

 

[Myth_buster_1]

wellll do u think on will buy idas or will go for french exocet

both are totally different weapons.. Exocet is a long range offensive AShM while IDAS is a short range defensive weapon, now you cant aim and shoot a anti sub aircraft with Exocet.
btw Type-214 primary AShM will be block II Harpoon recently inducted.

 

[dizzy heights]

Shooting Down Aircraft With Torpedoes


September 17, 2009: Once more, developers are working on weapons that enable submerged submarines to attack aircraft overhead. There was recent successful test of the U.S. Tomahawk Capsule Launching System (TCLS) releasing a AIM-9X Sidewinder air-to-air heat seeking missile. This is all part of an effort that began during the Cold War, particularly for non-nuclear subs. While most of this work halted when the Cold War ended in 1991, it has since been resumed.

Last year, for example, Germany successfully tested launching anti-aircraft missile from a submerged submarine (U-33, a Type 212 equipped with Air Independent Propulsion). The IDAS (Interactive Defense and Attack system for Submarines) missile used is 7.6 feet long, 180mm in diameter and weighs 260 pounds. It has a 29 pound warhead and a range of at least 15 kilometers. The main targets are ASW (Anti-Submarine) helicopters and low flying ASW aircraft. Two IDAS missiles fit into a metal frame that in turn fits into a torpedo tube. The IDAS missiles take about a minute to reach the surface, ignite its rocket motor, spot any target within range and go after it. If the IDAS misses, an air bubble from the torpedo tube launch of the missile, will reach the surface, indicating where the sub is. At that point, the helicopter or aircraft can drop a torpedo. The sub has countermeasures for these torpedoes, but these devices are not guaranteed to work every time, or against every type of torpedo (some are better at detecting, and getting around, countermeasures.) So using something like IDAS, or TCLS, is a gamble.

The sub commander would use IDAS if he calculated that a helicopter was likely to spot him with active sonar sonobouys or dipping sonar. IDAS can also be aimed at a surface ship (as in the bridge or a helicopter sitting on the platform at the rear of the ship. This is done using the fiber optic link, which can use used to designate a target. Otherwise, the missile uses its heat seeking sensor.

IDAS is a year or two away from availability, but it's uncertain if any navy will buy them. A similar system to IDAS (Triton), was developed in the 1990s, but never entered service. IDAS is a continuation of this. The concept of anti-aircraft missiles for subs is several decades old, and never actually used. But it's possible, so new models keep showing up.

Submarines: Shooting Down Aircraft With Torpedoes

 

[dizzy heights]

Triton Anti-helicopter missile for submarines - the first fibre-optic guided missile to enter operational service.

It just got hotter for ASW (anti-submarine warfare) helicopters in 2004. The German EADS-LFK 'Polyphem' will be the first fibre-optic guided missile to enter operational service. It can be launched by ship or helicopter for use against small ship- or land-based targets, and has a range up to 60km at Mach 0.6. A 20kg warhead is fitted and terminal guidance is either automatic or man-in-the-loop, via an IIR seeker.

'Triton', a 15km-range version, is being developed in conjunction with HDW and Kongsberg for submarine use with a solid rocket booster rather than Polyphem's turbine. The system will give submarines a measure of submerged anti-helicopter capability and, like Polyphem, should be ready for service by 2004. The Triton version is launched from a submarine's torpedo tube and is to equip the German and Italian 212 submarines, and becomes operational on Israeli Dolphin submarines in 2004.

How does a "fiber-optic cable-guided" missile system function?
A fiber-optic cable-guided missile system such as TRIFOM/Polyphem can be used from different platforms (land vehicles, ships, submarines, or helicopters). After its launch, the missile is connected with a 'ground station' by a glass fiber, which unwinds itself during it's flight from the missile's tail. This glass fiber is totally immune to enemy interference. Thus a bi-directional data link between missiles and platform and/or human operator exists each time a missile is launched. Over the glass fiber, data from the missile's infrared camera will transfer to the human operator's screen. This infrared camera is mounted on a very flexible spindle in the optical nose of the missile, and allows very focused and precise targeting, yet offers a very wide peripheral vision in acquisition. The operator can observe thereby on the screen in real time the target area, which the missile flies straight over. Fiber optics allows the missile operator the possibility to take over ("one in the loop concept"). If new targets emerge in the meantime, it can identify and evaluate these after missile launch. Owing to clear target identification and the high precision of the missile, unintentional damage can be avoided. Thus the Polyphem/Triton is the only missile system, which can accomplish a target change after already accomplishing target lock-on. This option could be very useful in the larger Polyphem missile if used from helicopters when engaging certain land targets (like in the 'West Bank' or in Afghanistan).

Steve Reichmuth

 

[Developereo]

an air bubble from the torpedo tube launch of the missile, will reach the surface, indicating where the sub is. At that point, the helicopter or aircraft can drop a torpedo.

Doesn't this mean that IDAS can be defeated by having helicopters working in pairs?

Even if one of the choppers gets hit, the other one can use the air bubble to locate and target the sub.