BVR IDAS?

[Myth_buster_1]

Doesn't this mean that IDAS can be defeated by having helicopters working in pairs?

Even if one of the choppers gets hit, the other one can use the air bubble to locate and target the sub.

my friend.. the u-boat is not going to be limited with "ONE" IDAS! It can utilize 1-2 Torpedo tubes out of 8 for IDAS role. it can carry 16 IDAS missiles if it utilizes 2 torpedo tubes for IDAS role. so once the pair choppers are located... they are well within its destruction range.

 

[Penguin]

Two IDAS missiles fit into a metal frame that in turn fits into a torpedo tube.

Four missile fit in a frame which fits in a torpedo tube.

The IDAS missiles take about a minute to reach the surface, ignite its rocket motor, spot any target within range and go after it.

I suppose that the time is variable and would depend on how deep the sub is dived when it launches an IDAS missile?

"After being pushed out of the submarine’s torpedo tube, the missile ignites its solid fuel rocket motor, steers to the surface and breaks through the surface. Having detected the target by means of the imaging IR seeker, it homes onto the target and destroys it by a direct hit. The missile can be commanded by the operator’s console on board the submarine via a fibre-optic link, which allows continuous transmission of IR images to the operator’s screen. So the operator can, for example, retarget the missile or correct the hit point if necessary."
http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/mi...2Session1Paper5%20IDAS for Submarines.pdf

If the IDAS misses, an air bubble from the torpedo tube launch of the missile, will reach the surface, indicating where the sub is.

"The missiles are stored in a special launching container, which has the dimensions of a heavyweight torpedo and includes a launching system that allows the missiles to be pushed out independently of each other."
http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/mi...mp/Day2Session1Paper5 IDAS for Submarines.pdf

IMHO, give 4 missiles in one launching container and the possibility of pushing out each independently, I would very much doubt air is used/released during push out: (unlike a torpedo or encapsulated missile) the rack stays in place and houses a push-out mechanism.

"As the first missile worldwide, IDAS cruises under water without an additional protective shell. This feature reduces considerably the space requirement of the system and allows the multiple flooding of the torpedo tube. The thus achieved relatively small size allows up to four missiles to be placed in one standard torpedo tube. They are loaded and carried along at sea in so-called launching containers, which have the dimension of a DM2A4 heavyweight torpedo and therefore have very similar handling characteristics. Integrated in these containers is a hydraulic system, which allows the individual launch of each individual missile."
http://www.europeansecurityanddefence.info/Ausgaben/2008/3_2008/06_Bredick/Bredick_ESD_0308.pdf

What air? The push-out system is hydraulic (for those interested, the above article described complete launch sequence).

So using something like IDAS, or TCLS, is a gamble.

Not really, since there is no air bubble.

 

[wild peace]

 

[SBD-3]

this video is basically on Type 212 not on 214 as 212 is more advanced that 214 but yet 214 share a lot with 212.
@Topic
I was thinking is it necessary to have IDAS at BVR? Here we will have to consider the role of subs. Is sub used for a "gerneralized" style role where it will have to engage the air crafts and choppers, ships and stuff or is it going to be used as "dedicated" platform with one mission on hand, go quietly, do the job and return silently because I afraid if it uses IDAS against air born platforms what this thing is going to do is that it will let the enemy know at least about the presence of sub, if not the exact location. So my bet minimal use of IDAS ( in dire need). Remain stealth, do the deed, home safely

 

[Penguin]

I was thinking is it necessary to have IDAS at BVR?

For a submerged submarine, anything in the air is BVR.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

this video is basically on Type 212 not on 214 as 212 is more advanced that 214 but yet 214 share a lot with 212.
@Topic
I was thinking is it necessary to have IDAS at BVR? Here we will have to consider the role of subs. Is sub used for a "gerneralized" style role where it will have to engage the air crafts and choppers, ships and stuff or is it going to be used as "dedicated" platform with one mission on hand, go quietly, do the job and return silently because I afraid if it uses IDAS against air born platforms what this thing is going to do is that it will let the enemy know at least about the presence of sub, if not the exact location. So my bet minimal use of IDAS ( in dire need). Remain stealth, do the deed, home safely

Hey then lets have all the submarine stick with the old method of attacking by torpedos and mines!
I do not know how you came to your conclusion. Mind you submerged submarines also fire cruise missiles, AShM so not say submarines will be doomed!
You are wrong in your perception.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The life of a sub depends upon its stealth character---the anti aircraft missiles that some of the subs can launch, is basically a last ditch, last moment effort for a sub to gain extra time to disappear in the deep.

When the moment comes to launch the missiles---by this time the surface vessels are already on the prowl and hunting for the sub---they know that she is in the vicinity close by---but they don't have a lock on---if the sub can take out the helicopter or any other aircraft flying in the area---it would give her some time to escape---.

BVR is senseless at this time---at BVR range----the air craft doesnot know where the sub is---unless it is floating around in the open un-neccessarily---would the sub under water, be able to acknowledge the presence of an air craft which at BVR----I very much doubt it.

I don't think any navy has that capability so far---I don't think that there is any submerged submarine radar out their that can pick up the signal of an aircraft 40---50 miles away and determine if it is hostile or not.

 

[SBD-3]

Hey then lets have all the submarine stick with the old method of attacking by torpedos and mines!
I do not know how you came to your conclusion. Mind you submerged submarines also fire cruise missiles, AShM so not say submarines will be doomed!
You are wrong in your perception.

but you should also know that AShM or CrxM have sufficient range as mentioned by Mastan sir as opposed to IDAS which has insufficient range. I still maintain Subs should not be used in "Hardcore" smashing way through ops, its not their nature.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

but you should also know that AShM or CrxM have sufficient range as mentioned by Mastan sir as opposed to IDAS which has insufficient range. I still maintain Subs should not be used in "Hardcore" smashing way through ops, its not their nature.

IDASs fired upon a lone ASW chopper or even multiple within 20km is not a threat at all since the choppers will have very very little reaction time and certainly wont be able to send back coordinates of the sub.

 

[PakShaheen79]

this video is basically on Type 212 not on 214 as 212 is more advanced that 214 but yet 214 share a lot with 212.
@Topic
I was thinking is it necessary to have IDAS at BVR? Here we will have to consider the role of subs. Is sub used for a "gerneralized" style role where it will have to engage the air crafts and choppers, ships and stuff or is it going to be used as "dedicated" platform with one mission on hand, go quietly, do the job and return silently because I afraid if it uses IDAS against air born platforms what this thing is going to do is that it will let the enemy know at least about the presence of sub, if not the exact location. So my bet minimal use of IDAS ( in dire need). Remain stealth, do the deed, home safely

Technically,U-212A is most advanced sub in family with non-magnetic hull... U-214 is 2nd most lethal thing only difference to U-212A is non-magnetic hull, IMO.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Technically,U-212A is most advanced sub in family with non-magnetic hull... U-214 is 2nd most lethal thing only difference to U-212A is non-magnetic hull, IMO.

Disadvantage of non magnetic hull is that you cant dive deeper and infact 214 can dive 100 meters more then the 212.

 

[Penguin]

Disadvantage of non magnetic hull is that you cant dive deeper and infact 214 can dive 100 meters more then the 212.

The design of the Dolphin class bears some resemblance to the German U 212 to which it can be considered a forerunner. The hull is rated for a diving depth of 350 meters.

Diving depth U212A is 400m. The Type 214 has an increased diving depth of over 400m, due to improvements in the pressure hull materials.

100 meters more than U212 would mean 500m for the U214. I've not come accross any reference for that.

Dutch Walruss class are officially rated for 300m but likely to about 400m as well. Export model Moray can to 360m incidentally, 300 operationally. These are 1980s, 1990s boats...
http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/classes/class_walrus2.htm

 

[Myth_buster_1]

The design of the Dolphin class bears some resemblance to the German U 212 to which it can be considered a forerunner. The hull is rated for a diving depth of 350 meters.

Diving depth U212A is 400m. The Type 214 has an increased diving depth of over 400m, due to improvements in the pressure hull materials.

100 meters more than U212 would mean 500m for the U214. I've not come accross any reference for that.

Dutch Walruss class are officially rated for 300m but likely to about 400m as well. Export model Moray can to 360m incidentally, 300 operationally. These are 1980s, 1990s boats...
Dutch Submarines: The Walrus (2) submarine class

I beg to differ. non-magnetic hulls are soft and can not sustain the deep sea pressure beyond 350 meters.

 

[Penguin]

I beg to differ. non-magnetic hulls are soft and can not sustain the deep sea pressure beyond 350 meters.

What are your sources, including for the 100m difference in diving depth between the 212A and 214 boats?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

What is your sources, including for the 100m difference between the german boats in question?

I hope this should help you out.. network54 WAFF member, he is a german btw.

This is kind of a classic issue, and there is a lot of confusion about it.

It is necessary to understand project legacy and concept origins to understand the differences between both ships, and the first thing we must clear about the question is:

None of the ships is overly superior to the other.

U-212 and U-214 are answers to different problems, and therefore they are different.
U-212 is the result of a german requirement for a submarine with a non magnetic hull. This requirement has to do with the average depth of the Baltic Sea (56m). In those circumstances, the most important defence method of a submarine is just to go to the bottom and try to disappear in the sonar. Hence, the need for a non-magnetic steel hull.
Unfortunatelly, non-magnetic steel is also known in the industry as «sweet.steel.» Meaning that it is «softer» than the steel used in the U-214. Thats why a U-214 can go deeper than a U-212, although in the shallow water of the Baltic the U-212 would go un-notices while the U-214 would probably be caught by sonar.

Actually the family legacy of U-212 is not U-209, but the Thyssen project from the 1970s that resulted in the TR-1700 submarine from Argentina. The fastest Diesel-electric submarine in the world. The same basic layout with two decks is also found in the Dolphin class from Israel, although without non-magnetic steel nor AIP.

U-214s legacy is the U-209, although much changed. It is narrower and longer that U-212. It was not thought for the Baltic, but for open deep sea operation. Therefore U-214 will have no bottom of the sea limit, other than the limit imposed by the resistance of its stronger hull.

Both U-214 and U-212 can operate in shallow waters or deep waters, but U-212 has the edge on shallow water, while U-214 has the edge on deep water.

The systems can be changed and installed on either vessels, depending on the requirement of the users.
U-212 has older systems than the U-214 (which is just natural as the projects are almost 10 years apart).

Note that U-212 was never offered as an option to a navy. When it was offered to the Italian navy, there was no U-214 yet.

U-212 uses an imported combat system partially made in Norway by Kongsberg, known as MSI-90, while U-214s combat system is made in germany.by Atlas-Elektronik, being the latest version of the ISUS-90 system.

There are many differences in combat systems, but one of the most important results in U-212 being only able to fire torpedoes, while U-214 can fire both torpedoes and submarine launched sub harpoon missiles. This will change in future versions of U-212 though.

The consolidation of german naval industry ended with the competition between both models in the 1990s.

One cant just say which of them is better. The U-212 was an absolute german need for the Baltic conditions. Italy wanted an AIP submarine, and there wasnt really any real choice at the time. When a navy makes an option for a model, the most logical option is to stick to it, and thus Italy is going to get an additional two U-212.

For a navy that is going to protect shallow waters, there is no doubt about the clear superiority of U-212. In deep sea operations away from the shores, U-214 will fare better.


I hope I may have been of help