BVR IDAS?

[Myth_buster_1]

the current IDAS has a double stage propulsion system right?
one is by the use of a rotor...meant for it's travel upwards to the surface...and the other is a rocket motor based propulsion system to propel it in air...
IMO...the rocket motor is fine...since the real BVR would involve the ability to launch the IDAS from greater depths(so that the P-8 would have to struggle to detect the type-218's location)
a more capable underwater propulsion system would be needed....not a difficult thing to achieve...as unlike on ground..where gravity plays a negative role...buoyancy(can be achieved by the use of small air pump operated balast tanks) would help increase range...

are you aware of this concept being used in practice?

IMO with the help of towed search/tracking radar that floats on the surface and thats how the BVR IDAS could be achieved? also keeping in mind that the company that has developed IDAS IRIS-T and SL is Diehl BGT and its most likely that the seeker head could be borrowed from IRIS-T SL which could give IDAS a range of up to 60km. of course i am just speculating but could this concept turn into reality?

Compared to IRIS-T, IRIS-T SL is equipped with a larger solid-propellant rocket motor, a data link and a nose cone for drag reduction.

 

[Penguin]

Sorry bro but with all due respect the speed data is pretty much irrelevant in ASuW context. Due to the stealth characteristics of Type-214 any MPA aircraft has to spend hell lot of time loitering above probable area and definitely has to decent to 1000 feet or even below. As a last resort thats where IDAS comes in action against MPA and i believe P-8 is not cruising at top speed.

Mmmm, there has to be a reason IDAS advertised as suitable to shoot down hovering helicopters and slow flying MPA?

Clearly P8 will not be cruising at top speed, that's why I gave both (Vmax=907 km/h, Vcruise=815 km/h). That's considerably faster than P3, Breguet Atlantique or F27/F50 Enforcer, Il38 May and even Tu142M Bear.

 

[Penguin]

With the IDAS missile system, a submerged submarine can engage enemy anti-submarine warfare helicopters, small surface vessels and land targets near the coast with highest precision.

No mention of MPAs...
Diehl BGT Defence | Ship-to-air guided missiles
IDAS Missile System - Armed Forces International

But, to be honest, I found a page in German saying:
"Mit IDAS konnten besonders hubschrauber und U-jagdflugzeuge auf distanz gehalten werden."
U-33 sucessfully downes air drone with IDAS missile

But here again:

The new fibre-optic guided missile system IDAS is capable of meeting all these requirements – and
more.
IDAS is capable of combating:
 Surface vessels with selectable hit points and damage effects on the targets
 Pre-selected coastal targets
 ASW helicopters
Further features are:
 No limitation of submarine manoeuvres during missile operation
 Digital seeker images available at weapon control console via data link
 Autonomous missile guidance with operator intervention until impact
 Precision hit performance on selected impact points
 High single shot kill probability

IDAS can be considered a
multi-purpose weapon system. IDAS is suitable not only for operations against ASW helicopters but
also for precision strikes against surface targets and objectives on land in the vicinity of the coast.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Mmmm, there has to be a reason IDAS advertised as suitable to shoot down hovering helicopters and slow flying MPA?

Would they really wanna revile all capabilities of a weapon that they have just introduced?

Clearly P8 will not be cruising at top speed, that's why I gave both (Vmax=907 km/h, Vcruise=815 km/h). That's considerably faster than P3, Breguet Atlantique or F27/F50 Enforcer, Il38 May and even Tu142M Bear.

On Anti-submarine warfare mode MPA average loitering speed is not more then 200-300 km and altitude of 1000-2000 feet.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

No mention of MPAs...
Diehl BGT Defence | Ship-to-air guided missiles
IDAS Missile System - Armed Forces International

But, to be honest, I found a page in German saying:
"Mit IDAS konnten besonders hubschrauber und U-jagdflugzeuge auf distanz gehalten werden."
U-33 sucessfully downes air drone with IDAS missile

But here again:

The above article of IDAS successfully targeting a drone proves my point. The point that IDAS can not target loitering MPA would be valid if the drone was actually a steady hovering helicopter drone. In fact most likely drone that was targeted is Banshee which is widely used in Nato forces for target practicing.

wingspan- 2.49 meters
length- 2.84 meters
height- 0.86 meters
empty weight- 38.5 kilograms
launch weight- 72.6 kilograms
maximum speed- 322 KPH
service ceiling- 7,000 meters
endurance- 1 hour 15 minutes

300 km drone is pretty much imitating loitering MPA.

 

[Arsalan]

No its not premature, IDAS were present in IDEAS-2008 and the missile is compatible with all new U-boats like the type-212/214.

no no imeant to say tha talking about the weapons that will come with U214 is premature as the deal is not officially signed as yet. i hope it will be done soon and every thing will go smoothly but the discussing lsit of weapons onboard and there abilities is what i think premature! specially when nothing like a BVR IADAS exists,,
let the deal be signed, some news about weapons surface and then we might enjoy the party!!

regards!

 

[Myth_buster_1]

no no imeant to say tha talking about the weapons that will come with U214 is premature as the deal is not officially signed as yet. i hope it will be done soon and every thing will go smoothly but the discussing lsit of weapons onboard and there abilities is what i think premature! specially when nothing like a BVR IADAS exists,,
let the deal be signed, some news about weapons surface and then we might enjoy the party!!

regards!

Yaar the whole point of this thread is to "discuss" other wise the forum would be dead if we were to only talk about something that is only in our possession.
And please dont take my thread out of context .. Their is no such thing as "BVR IDAS" and just like other threads the main purpose of this thread is to "discuss" the possibility which is not dead.
So their is nothing premature about it. the deal is almost done!

 

[Patriot]

Well, if we have a radar near submarine or within submarine for guiding missiles then it will be active and will give out submarine whereabouts.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Well, if we have a radar near submarine or within submarine for guiding missiles then it will be active and will give out submarine whereabouts.

But so are the radars and sensors inboard the submarine also active.

 

[PakShaheen79]

I think whole idea of such weapon can be proved dangerous for submarine more than air born target it is going to hunt with such missile.

 

[Super Falcon]

i think idas can have a kill over p 8 if p 8 flying low other wise it is 50 50 but im sure navy should ask germans they need subs with anti aircraft missile launch system harpoon 2 willl be great too

 

[Super Falcon]

Sub plot: Germany heads anti-air missile initiative

21 August 2009


IDAS is chiefly intended to defend the submarine from attack by ASW helicopters, but the missile can also strike unarmoured surface and coastal targets as a cheaper alternative to torpedoes or land-attack missiles. (Diehl)
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In June 2009, delegates at the Undersea Defence Technology [UDT] Europe conference in Cannes learned that the German Navy had allocated funding to take the IDAS (Interactive Defence and Attack System for Submarines) submerged-launched precision weapon into production.

Developed by the ARGE IDAS consortium - comprising ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems' Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) division, Diehl BGT Defence and Kongsberg Defence & Aerospace (KDA) - IDAS is intended to provide a precision attack capability against surface and onshore targets and a 'last ditch' self-defence capability against anti-submarine warfare (ASW) helicopters.

Supported by Germany's Federal Office for Defence Technology and Procurement (BWB), the navy is planning to retrofit IDAS into its Type 212A submarines. Four of the HDW-built boats were commissioned between 2005 and 2007, and two more are expected to enter service in 2013.

Diehl BGT Defence's product manager, Klaus-Eberhard Moeller, told the UDT audience: "In 2011 we will conclude [IDAS] proposal and contracting activities with the BWB, with a four-year full development programme beginning in 2012. Production will start in 2016."

The ASW helicopter is probably the submariner's deadliest foe. Operating from a land base or surface ship, an aircraft can reach a target area rapidly, conduct a persistent search for submarines using its active dipping sonar, and prosecute a torpedo attack with no fear of retaliation from the submerged boat.

The possibility of developing a submarine-launched missile to counter this threat has been under discussion internationally since the 1980s

 

[Super Falcon]

after reading article which i posted earlier it can not have kill on P 8 it has to be made for anti sub helicopters

 

[Myth_buster_1]

after reading article which i posted earlier it can not have kill on P 8 it has to be made for anti sub helicopters

Yaar first read my post, and yes IDAS is fully capable of bringing down a loitering MPA as a defence measure.

The above article of IDAS successfully targeting a drone proves my point. The point that IDAS can not target loitering MPA would be valid if the drone was actually a steady hovering helicopter drone. In fact most likely drone that was targeted is Banshee which is widely used in Nato forces for target practicing.

wingspan- 2.49 meters
length- 2.84 meters
height- 0.86 meters
empty weight- 38.5 kilograms
launch weight- 72.6 kilograms
maximum speed- 322 KPH
service ceiling- 7,000 meters
endurance- 1 hour 15 minutes

300 km drone is pretty much imitating loitering MPA.

 

[Penguin]

Would they really wanna revile all capabilities of a weapon that they have just introduced?

Mmm, not convinced by this argument. Too conspirational. A counter argument would be that in order to make a sale, capabilities tend to get overstated rather than understated.

On Anti-submarine warfare mode MPA average loitering speed is not more then 200-300 km and altitude of 1000-2000 feet.

Yes, that is correct. For example

"The aircraft [P-8A Poseidon MMA] can cruise at high altitude at nearly 926km/h (500kt) and loiter at a speed of 333km/h (180kt) over the sea at a low altitude of 60m."
P-8A Poseidon - Multi-Mission Maritime Aircraft (MMA) - Naval Technology

P-3C loiter speed is actually greater trhan that of P-8!

P-3 Loiter speed at 1,050 ft : 203 kt
Patrol Speed. 235 mph (380km/h)
P-3C Orion - Maritime Patrol and Anti-Submarine Warfare - Naval Technology

But if needed P-8 could get out of the area in a hurry much faster than a P-3C loitering at the same speed on 1 engine to conserve fuel.

Still, why refer to hovering helicopters (i.e. those dipping a sonar or dropping sonobouys) and slow flying MPA (i.e. those dropping and listening sonobuoys, using MAD boom etc) only. Why not also refer to helicopters in transit (cruise Speed of a S-70B Seahawk is 272km/hr, very similar to that of a loitering MPA)? Or to MPAs in transit? The more I think about that, the more it seems likely to me that this has to do with detecting the airborne target while submerged: it is passive (noise will provide a general range and bearing for the air target, the missile is launched in that general area and then the IRIS-T seeker may acquire the actual target once it breaks the surface and it in controlled flight.)