New JF-17 Squadron to be raised

[volatile]

We will see a mix of F16 and JF17 in this squadron infact F16 will play the role of Air Superiority and cover at least to block 1/2 thunders and JF17 will be package deliverers ,Indian Navy will have a tough day until Rafale .

4 F16 - 8 to 10 Thunders

 

[Gryphon]

No 16 was at temporary deployment at Samungli for almost an year..dont know about their current state...the same sqn shot down the Iranian drone...maybe some of their aircrafts will be given to the new sqn(just a thought).
As i mentioned previously,I've confirmed about the new sqn from an authentic source so no doubts that its going to be raised.
Taken at samungli:
View attachment 445040

No. 2 sqn AOR extends upto Jiwani from Sir Creek. Some said the drone was shot by a JF-17 piloted by Sqn Leader Zeeshan of No. 2 sqn.

 

[Talon]

No. 2 sqn AOR extends upto Jiwani from Sir Creek. Some said the drone was shot by a JF-17 piloted by Sqn Leader Zeeshan of No. 2 sqn.

Yep..my bad

 

[ziaulislam]

Phly khtaara maal to replace karo bhai

bhai doctorine have been already built for khachra maal but not for the new maal..it takes time to effectively use them
we do know what happens to arabs when using the migs against their opponent in arab-Isral war, there was nothing wrong in the migs.

When the Radar is replaced with an AESA radar, the main problem is the increase in power consumption. If the JF-17 Block I/II cannot deliver enough electrical power,
it is not possible to upgrade the existing planes, without upgrading the engine as well.

rd 93 has ample power
if even more power needed for ECW suit, RD93MA or WS 13 could be considered/retofitted, it has 15'% more thrust and is in league with ge414 engine

 

[araz]

rd 93 has ample power
if even more power needed for ECW suit, RD93MA or WS 13 could be considered/retofitted, it has 15'% more thrust and is in league with ge414 engine

I respond to above only. RD93MA is not due to come into the picture till at least 2018 if not later. WS13 remains untested and all estimates of its thrust and more importantly reliability remain just estimates. PAF will not risk a problem with WS13 and would rather wait for the 93MA.
However, the world is a funny place and if the Russians get a whiff of the fact that you do not have a sevond choice with engines they will either hike up the price or delay the 93MA. If you look at it objectively there is no incentive in it for them unless there is a competing product. This in fact works both ways and will incentivise the Chonese into concentrating on the 13s as well. Whatever PAF does subsequently will be after a careful run off of one against the other and choose the better of the two. I think this is a dilema for PAF.
A

 

[ziaulislam]

I respond to above only. RD93MA is not due to come into the picture till at least 2018 if not later. WS13 remains untested and all estimates of its thrust and more importantly reliability remain just estimates. PAF will not risk a problem with WS13 and would rather wait for the 93MA.
However, the world is a funny place and if the Russians get a whiff of the fact that you do not have a sevond choice with engines they will either hike up the price or delay the 93MA. If you look at it objectively there is no incentive in it for them unless there is a competing product. This in fact works both ways and will incentivise the Chonese into concentrating on the 13s as well. Whatever PAF does subsequently will be after a careful run off of one against the other and choose the better of the two. I think this is a dilema for PAF.
A

the incentive would be there if PAF thinks rd 93 is lacking, which i think is not,


hypothetically IF PAF believed that rd -93 is lacking in power for block 3 requirement, they would have found that back in 2014-2015 during technical study phase and would have already approached Chinese or Russian to get their engine ready by 2018-2020, interesting that is the time around which we heard about rd 93ma for the first time

i believe a 100+ order is an incentive even in case of lacking competition, especially when this is not a purely new engine

chinese have made astonishing improvement of late, i will not be surprised if even ws 13 is ready....
though i think PAF will go fro rd 93ma if needed and i hope it should be ready if needed by 2018-20...
if indeginization is the future push, it will not be bad idea to go for more local production on ws 13 and use similar advance version or same engine for project azm

 

[razgriz19]

the incentive would be there if PAF thinks rd 93 is lacking, which i think is not,


hypothetically IF PAF believed that rd -93 is lacking in power for block 3 requirement, they would have found that back in 2014-2015 during technical study phase and would have already approached Chinese or Russian to get their engine ready by 2018-2020, interesting that is the time around which we heard about rd 93ma for the first time

i believe a 100+ order is an incentive even in case of lacking competition, especially when this is not a purely new engine

chinese have made astonishing improvement of late, i will not be surprised if even ws 13 is ready....
though i think PAF will go fro rd 93ma if needed and i hope it should be ready if needed by 2018-20...
if indeginization is the future push, it will not be bad idea to go for more local production on ws 13 and use similar advance version or same engine for project azm

The problem with RD-93 is that it has a much shorter life span.
But who knows maybe that's what PAF is planning all along, when it's time to replace the RD-93 they might replace it with WS-13 if its ready.

 

[ziaulislam]

The problem with RD-93 is that it has a much shorter life span.
But who knows maybe that's what PAF is planning all along, when it's time to replace the RD-93 they might replace it with WS-13 if its ready.

but its cheaper as well, its simply a design philosophy..i am no expert, not even novice...

soviet mass production vs western more reliable longer life products

 

[CriticalThought]

but its cheaper as well, its simply a design philosophy..i am no expert, not even novice...

soviet mass production vs western more reliable longer life products

Western engines are some of the most mass produced in the world. Mass production lowers price without lowering quality due to economies of scale.

 

[ziaulislam]

Western engines are some of the most mass produced in the world. Mass production lowers price without lowering quality due to economies of scale.

and yet they are 4x times expensive (2.5 million vs 8-9million)
my point was Russian engines are much more cheaper because they way they are built

 

[CriticalThought]

and yet they are 4x times expensive (2.5 million vs 8-9million)
my point was Russian engines are much more cheaper because they way they are built

If you take into account after sales support, parts availability, mean time to failure etc., it should even out. Also, we need to compare apples to apples. So you will need to look up the prices for engines that are similar in terms of T/W, MTOW, MTTF, and the era to which the engine belongs and then do the comparison.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

the incentive would be there if PAF thinks rd 93 is lacking, which i think is not,


hypothetically IF PAF believed that rd -93 is lacking in power for block 3 requirement, they would have found that back in 2014-2015 during technical study phase and would have already approached Chinese or Russian to get their engine ready by 2018-2020, interesting that is the time around which we heard about rd 93ma for the first time

i believe a 100+ order is an incentive even in case of lacking competition, especially when this is not a purely new engine

chinese have made astonishing improvement of late, i will not be surprised if even ws 13 is ready....
though i think PAF will go fro rd 93ma if needed and i hope it should be ready if needed by 2018-20...
if indeginization is the future push, it will not be bad idea to go for more local production on ws 13 and use similar advance version or same engine for project azm

Available power is not a problem if you reduce the power of the AESA radar transmitters...

The available power in the RM-12A F-404 derivative (80kN) is about the same as the RD-93
and it does not allow retrofitting AESA onto Gripen C.
The WS-13 provides 86kN which is not really matching the 98kN provided by the F-414.

So far, the decision seems to be to stay with the RD-33, but if this is because it supplies
enough power, or it is because the WS-13 has some deficiency that is unacceptable
is as far as I know, not official.

 

[ziaulislam]

Available power is not a problem if you reduce the power of the AESA radar transmitters...

The available power in the RM-12A F-404 derivative (80kN) is about the same as the RD-93
and it does not allow retrofitting AESA onto Gripen C.
The WS-13 provides 86kN which is not really matching the 98kN provided by the F-414.

So far, the decision seems to be to stay with the RD-33, but if this is because it supplies
enough power, or it is because the WS-13 has some deficiency that is unacceptable
is as far as I know, not official.

wrong all reports...albeit no offical source suggests that ws 13 is 100kn power engine and so is the rd 93 ma

please update yourself
AESA radars are getting better and better, so far reports suggest that rd 93 baseline engine can support AESA,
remember rd 93 has about 10% more thrust than gef-404 anyway

rd 93 and rd 93ma is much mature engine, that is the reason to stick with it

If you take into account after sales support, parts availability, mean time to failure etc., it should even out. Also, we need to compare apples to apples. So you will need to look up the prices for engines that are similar in terms of T/W, MTOW, MTTF, and the era to which the engine belongs and then do the comparison.

i am comparing ge f404 to rd 93.... comparing a recent sale of 100 engines to india @ around 9 million
assuming overhaul time and maintenance is twice as costly...
rd 93 will still be cheaper

 

[Raider 21]

and yet they are 4x times expensive (2.5 million vs 8-9million)
my point was Russian engines are much more cheaper because they way they are built

But they break down quite easily hence more overhauls....

 

[Ultima Thule]

rd 93 has about 10% more thrust than gef-404 anyway

you're wrong sir both RD-93 and GE F-404 generally in same class almost have a similar specification in almost every aspect