Zaid Hamid speech related to Pakistan
- Thread starter Zarvan
- Start date
Hyperion
RETIRED TTA
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2012
- Messages
- 12,564
- Reaction score
- 26
- Country
- Location
deepak.chauhan2312
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2012
- Messages
- 550
- Reaction score
- -1
- Country
- Location
Indians are bound to be conquered like they always have been.
ha ha ha ha....you got into history again and i will say it again that your were get conquered too....iss baat ka always dhayan rkho when it comes to history before 1947 if you are insulting India about it you are insulting Pakistan too
deepak.chauhan2312
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2012
- Messages
- 550
- Reaction score
- -1
- Country
- Location
saala comedian.....he don't have respect even in pakistan
Chak Bamu
RETIRED MOD
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2013
- Messages
- 5,361
- Reaction score
- 69
- Country
- Location
@Zarvan, brother in my younger years I was fascinated with Hadith relating to the signs of last days. Over the years, I have realized that it is quite wrong to build a political / strategic action plan based on these Hadith.
I believe in Hadith just as a believer ought to. However, my realization was based on the question of anyone mortal being in a position to influence Allah's plan. Assuming that we ought to do abc because Allah would do xyz is inappropriate. It assumes knowledge of events that only Allah has. It also points to an assumption that perhaps someone can actually influence Allah's plan. More likely such programs are really a product of an obsession with plight of Muslims and a failure to see how the situation can be changed advantageously. While the sentiments are noble, the actual outcome of this thinking is disastrous. There is a word in English language that does justice to such thinking. It is called Millennialism. Millennial thinking is not unique to Islam. Such thinking exists in Judaism and Christianity. I will touch upon this at the end of this post.
1. Look at Al-Qaeda. It has not made an iota of positive difference for Muslims. It has in fact caused a great deal of deterioration and confusion. But their thinking has a germ of Millennialism. And that sits atop a deep-seated frustration with World and suspicion of anything that does not fit into their mind-set. They totally fail to realize that we need Jihad with ourselves and improve our educational, economic, and governance systems. Only then we can be in a position to positively improve our (Ummah's) fotune.
2. The TTP have a millennial mind-set too. And this sits atop a great deal of tribalism mixed with classical learning very much out of tune with today's world. The want to make this world of ours conform with their vision derived from classical texts. There is hardly any precedent and this approach is likely impractical. But still they use Millennial thinking as an inspiration and recruitment tool. Read their literature and you would find the truth of what I am saying.
3. Many activist people with a link to spirituality in Pakistan (like Zaid Hamid) are also in thrall of Millennial thinking. Of all, Sufis ought to understand the nature of pitfalls most well, since most Auliya-Allah have warned against a lust for political power. But nevertheless, I have seen and read grains of this thinking in the works of people aware of spiritual dimension of Islam. It has led to errors and outlandish claims in the past and will do so again in the present. And we can well see this happening today too. Zaid Hamid's Pir made an outlandish claim that has earned the ire of Ulema and given rise to controversy. I shall not say anymore and leave it at that. But Ummah's history of colonial times and since has given us some examples of the weaknesses inherent in this course of action, and any one who has interest in this subject should know and realize its pitfalls.
4. Common people like myself who wish to do something for Ummah, starting from Pakistan often read things about Khilafat, Imam Mehdi, Ghazwa-e-Hind, Dajjal etc... The material out there ought to warn the readers that these works are mostly speculations. But of course anyone who starts writing about their Millennial vision are so convinced and confident, that they are pretty emphatic about their proclamations. This of course takes a commoner on a joyride which is very addictive. I have taken a couple of these and found that nothing actually changes. The basic mistake of course is that anyone who writes about Millennialism forgets that it is Allah's decision, and nobody else's. We have Hadith, but Hadith is not a definite program of when anything would actually happen. It only provides an approximate sequence of some events. But we have no way of knowing WHEN these events might unfold. Since we ourselves are so desperate of something to happen, we (and generations before us) have been focused on an imminent DHAMAKA that would change everything. If Allah so wishes, it shall happen, when Allah wishes it to happen - but not before. Neither I, nor you, nor anyone else can wish these events into existence. We are nobodies, and our wishes are irrelevant.
So my friend, if you want to do something productive with your time, focus on improvements in our social, educational, economic, & political systems. Little by little we can raise ourselves to achieve all we wish for. It would take a few decades, but if Chinese could change their status within one generation, so can we. My support for Democracy is not based on some blind faith. I have proper reasons for doing so. If we wish for Pakistan to be a source of strength to Ummah and bulwark against Kufr, then we need to build it. Nobody will drop out of the sky just like that to make Pakistan great. We have to do it ourselves. Leaving it to Allah is the way of the Jews. We are not Jews. The great teachings that we follow point to positive thinking, systematic Mashawarat, struggle, and hard work. A Muslim must not underestimate the importance of sweat. But for some reason we have a strange fascination with Blood, unfortunately. Our Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) has taught us importance of Hikmat, and has cautioned us against war. But we keep thinking of it as though it would solve our problems.
The best victory is achieved without expenditure of physical resources. This is Sunnah but we forget.
I have found that moving away from Millennial thinking as an imperative action plan for near future frees up one's mind. One sees things differently and notices important opportunities. I find nothing wrong with working for peace with India because Ghazwa-e-Hind has nothing to do with my actions, unless it happens in my life time. In any case, I have to work as though it is not about to happen. I can therefore see the importance of working with Hindus on improving the situation of South Asia, since it is important to both of us. If I were to focus on the idea of imminent Ghazwa-e-Hind, I would be opposed to any accommodation, any negotiation, any effort towards improvement. I am glad our leaders today are not Millennialists, but pragmatic politicians who know the importance of making a deal for the sake of peace.
Lastly, let me provide examples of busted Millennial thinking. First is of some nutty Christian group who planned a series of bombings in Israel to start (in their view) World War in December 1999, so that they may hasten second coming of Jesus Christ in 2000. Luckily Israelis caught them before they could do something. A couple of years ago, someone came up with a looney plan to somehow strike big oil in Israel (under the Dead Sea) and cause a war from (supposedly) angry Arabs. This too was just a money minting ploy. American public is awfully dumb at times. Another nutter had an hour of program on a TV channel in USA in the 90's focused on getting Jesus Christ on Earth quickly, in time for the new Millenium. This too was a money thing. For Jews, the last big thing that happened was Shebbatai Zevi (1626-1676) during Ottoman reign. Sabbatai Zevi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
@Armstrong, you may find something of value in this post. @haviZsultan, you too may find that this attempt at explaining impact of Millennial programs valuable. @RazPaK - I think most of all, you need to read this. Who knows, your hatred for India may have Millennial roots.
I believe in Hadith just as a believer ought to. However, my realization was based on the question of anyone mortal being in a position to influence Allah's plan. Assuming that we ought to do abc because Allah would do xyz is inappropriate. It assumes knowledge of events that only Allah has. It also points to an assumption that perhaps someone can actually influence Allah's plan. More likely such programs are really a product of an obsession with plight of Muslims and a failure to see how the situation can be changed advantageously. While the sentiments are noble, the actual outcome of this thinking is disastrous. There is a word in English language that does justice to such thinking. It is called Millennialism. Millennial thinking is not unique to Islam. Such thinking exists in Judaism and Christianity. I will touch upon this at the end of this post.
1. Look at Al-Qaeda. It has not made an iota of positive difference for Muslims. It has in fact caused a great deal of deterioration and confusion. But their thinking has a germ of Millennialism. And that sits atop a deep-seated frustration with World and suspicion of anything that does not fit into their mind-set. They totally fail to realize that we need Jihad with ourselves and improve our educational, economic, and governance systems. Only then we can be in a position to positively improve our (Ummah's) fotune.
2. The TTP have a millennial mind-set too. And this sits atop a great deal of tribalism mixed with classical learning very much out of tune with today's world. The want to make this world of ours conform with their vision derived from classical texts. There is hardly any precedent and this approach is likely impractical. But still they use Millennial thinking as an inspiration and recruitment tool. Read their literature and you would find the truth of what I am saying.
3. Many activist people with a link to spirituality in Pakistan (like Zaid Hamid) are also in thrall of Millennial thinking. Of all, Sufis ought to understand the nature of pitfalls most well, since most Auliya-Allah have warned against a lust for political power. But nevertheless, I have seen and read grains of this thinking in the works of people aware of spiritual dimension of Islam. It has led to errors and outlandish claims in the past and will do so again in the present. And we can well see this happening today too. Zaid Hamid's Pir made an outlandish claim that has earned the ire of Ulema and given rise to controversy. I shall not say anymore and leave it at that. But Ummah's history of colonial times and since has given us some examples of the weaknesses inherent in this course of action, and any one who has interest in this subject should know and realize its pitfalls.
4. Common people like myself who wish to do something for Ummah, starting from Pakistan often read things about Khilafat, Imam Mehdi, Ghazwa-e-Hind, Dajjal etc... The material out there ought to warn the readers that these works are mostly speculations. But of course anyone who starts writing about their Millennial vision are so convinced and confident, that they are pretty emphatic about their proclamations. This of course takes a commoner on a joyride which is very addictive. I have taken a couple of these and found that nothing actually changes. The basic mistake of course is that anyone who writes about Millennialism forgets that it is Allah's decision, and nobody else's. We have Hadith, but Hadith is not a definite program of when anything would actually happen. It only provides an approximate sequence of some events. But we have no way of knowing WHEN these events might unfold. Since we ourselves are so desperate of something to happen, we (and generations before us) have been focused on an imminent DHAMAKA that would change everything. If Allah so wishes, it shall happen, when Allah wishes it to happen - but not before. Neither I, nor you, nor anyone else can wish these events into existence. We are nobodies, and our wishes are irrelevant.
So my friend, if you want to do something productive with your time, focus on improvements in our social, educational, economic, & political systems. Little by little we can raise ourselves to achieve all we wish for. It would take a few decades, but if Chinese could change their status within one generation, so can we. My support for Democracy is not based on some blind faith. I have proper reasons for doing so. If we wish for Pakistan to be a source of strength to Ummah and bulwark against Kufr, then we need to build it. Nobody will drop out of the sky just like that to make Pakistan great. We have to do it ourselves. Leaving it to Allah is the way of the Jews. We are not Jews. The great teachings that we follow point to positive thinking, systematic Mashawarat, struggle, and hard work. A Muslim must not underestimate the importance of sweat. But for some reason we have a strange fascination with Blood, unfortunately. Our Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) has taught us importance of Hikmat, and has cautioned us against war. But we keep thinking of it as though it would solve our problems.
The best victory is achieved without expenditure of physical resources. This is Sunnah but we forget.
I have found that moving away from Millennial thinking as an imperative action plan for near future frees up one's mind. One sees things differently and notices important opportunities. I find nothing wrong with working for peace with India because Ghazwa-e-Hind has nothing to do with my actions, unless it happens in my life time. In any case, I have to work as though it is not about to happen. I can therefore see the importance of working with Hindus on improving the situation of South Asia, since it is important to both of us. If I were to focus on the idea of imminent Ghazwa-e-Hind, I would be opposed to any accommodation, any negotiation, any effort towards improvement. I am glad our leaders today are not Millennialists, but pragmatic politicians who know the importance of making a deal for the sake of peace.
Lastly, let me provide examples of busted Millennial thinking. First is of some nutty Christian group who planned a series of bombings in Israel to start (in their view) World War in December 1999, so that they may hasten second coming of Jesus Christ in 2000. Luckily Israelis caught them before they could do something. A couple of years ago, someone came up with a looney plan to somehow strike big oil in Israel (under the Dead Sea) and cause a war from (supposedly) angry Arabs. This too was just a money minting ploy. American public is awfully dumb at times. Another nutter had an hour of program on a TV channel in USA in the 90's focused on getting Jesus Christ on Earth quickly, in time for the new Millenium. This too was a money thing. For Jews, the last big thing that happened was Shebbatai Zevi (1626-1676) during Ottoman reign. Sabbatai Zevi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
@Armstrong, you may find something of value in this post. @haviZsultan, you too may find that this attempt at explaining impact of Millennial programs valuable. @RazPaK - I think most of all, you need to read this. Who knows, your hatred for India may have Millennial roots.
Last edited by a moderator:
Armstrong
RETIRED TTA
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2012
- Messages
- 19,390
- Reaction score
- 94
- Country
- Location
Chak Bamu
RETIRED MOD
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2013
- Messages
- 5,361
- Reaction score
- 69
- Country
- Location
@Chak Bamu Bhai - I'm still sticking to my Argument of treating Hadith as something that has less to do with Religion & more to do with History so I'm not a big believer the Ahadith in an actively religious manner !
I was just giving my perspective. BTW, it is a bit of a slippery slope when one starts doubting Hadith. If you find something difficult to understand or square with your view of things, it is best to suspend judgement rather than suspend belief. Slowly things work in the back of your mind and one day you find the key that opens the solution to a conundrum. Take this as an advice from a self-described sufi.
In any case, I am just waiting for completing 1000 posts so that I can start using DMs. I would like to send you my mobile number and talk to you, if you could be willing that is.
Last edited by a moderator:
livingdead
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2011
- Messages
- 22,952
- Reaction score
- 0
- Country
- Location
@Chak Bamu Bhai - I'm still sticking to my Argument of treating Hadith as something that has less to do with Religion & more to do with History so I'm not a big believer the Ahadith in an actively religious manner !
same can be said about quran too .. no?
Last edited by a moderator:
Armstrong
RETIRED TTA
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2012
- Messages
- 19,390
- Reaction score
- 94
- Country
- Location
No ! Historical Continuity, Uniformity & Preservation in the form of thousands to hundreds of thousands & later millions of Memorizers with not even a diphthong different between them puts it beyond reasonable doubt, in my humble opinion !
livingdead
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2011
- Messages
- 22,952
- Reaction score
- 0
- Country
- Location
its possible to do so with hadith too .. besides you just see current scripture, you have no idea what people were memorizing earlier.
beyond resonable doubt? you should have said 'I believe' ..
Chak Bamu
RETIRED MOD
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2013
- Messages
- 5,361
- Reaction score
- 69
- Country
- Location
OH Bhai, Janay do. Let it go....
its possible to do so with hadith too .. besides you just see current scripture, you have no idea what people were memorizing earlier.
beyond resonable doubt? you should have said 'I believe' ..
You do not seem to put much FAITH in BELIEF? Why then describe yourself in religious terms?
Armstrong
RETIRED TTA
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2012
- Messages
- 19,390
- Reaction score
- 94
- Country
- Location
its possible to do so with hadith too .. besides you just see current scripture, you have no idea what people were memorizing earlier.
beyond resonable doubt? you should have said 'I believe' ..
No it isn't possible with hadith because there is enough evidence to suggest to the contrary ! Even the Hadith where the context & the gist is the same, the wordings are different - Nothing of the sort exists in the Koran !
Historical Continuity - Of course we do know what other people were memorizing earlier because there is a consensus on its content throughout the ages & extreme care was taken towards its preservation ! And because of the sheer scale of those who memorized it & many who then took it to the far corners of the known world without any variance between the words of the Koran anywhere as far back as recorded history !
I maintain 'beyond reasonable doubt' because 'unreasonable doubts' can be obtained aplenty but there is no reasonable doubt to suggest that the copy of the Koran today is any different than the copy that was there 1400 years ago.
acid rain
BANNED
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2012
- Messages
- 4,688
- Reaction score
- -10
- Country
- Location
@chuk bamu, the zaid hamid aaka issue you are talking about is that he claimed to be the present day Allah or prophet wasnt it?
As for the muslim prophesies that you see and hope will happen....be advised that there are numerous such prophesies that are present for every country, religion etc...and some circumstantial events tend to match up to what someone would prophesise....even for the present moment there are scores of people who prophesize what changes will happen to environment, economy, geo politics, earth and space, human beings, oceans, mountains, living beings etc for 20, 50...even 100 years and some them have been coming true or are on the verge of coming true.
As for Muslims doing a Gazwa Hind - best of luck to you lot - you will be a spent force by the time the west, China, Russia, Israel or India go through you....and this is my prediction/prophecy.
As for the muslim prophesies that you see and hope will happen....be advised that there are numerous such prophesies that are present for every country, religion etc...and some circumstantial events tend to match up to what someone would prophesise....even for the present moment there are scores of people who prophesize what changes will happen to environment, economy, geo politics, earth and space, human beings, oceans, mountains, living beings etc for 20, 50...even 100 years and some them have been coming true or are on the verge of coming true.
As for Muslims doing a Gazwa Hind - best of luck to you lot - you will be a spent force by the time the west, China, Russia, Israel or India go through you....and this is my prediction/prophecy.
livingdead
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2011
- Messages
- 22,952
- Reaction score
- 0
- Country
- Location
Pakistan is bound to be bombed through Taliban...
abey vishal bhardwaj.. tu phir agaya ?
KingMamba
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- May 23, 2012
- Messages
- 12,546
- Reaction score
- 7
- Country
- Location
its possible to do so with hadith too .. besides you just see current scripture, you have no idea what people were memorizing earlier.
beyond resonable doubt? you should have said 'I believe' ..
No the Quran was written down in parchments during the time of the Prophet and was then assmbled into one book not soon after. Hadith were compiled 230+ years later.
Similar threads
- Article
Latest posts
-
-
-
-
Bajwa calls Bushra's allegations against Saudi Arabia 'baseless'
- Latest: Novus ordu seclorum
Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts
-
Bajwa calls Bushra's allegations against Saudi Arabia 'baseless'
- Latest: Novus ordu seclorum
-
-
-
-
