What's new

Z-10 & Z-19 Combat Helicopter News & Discussion

Sorry, but these are not updated helicopters, but simply refurbished prototypes & preserials and even more the WZ-16 is not operational yet. That's sad, but simply a fan-boy's dream.

Just look at the airframe development .... and therefore I posted this idea at the CDF already a few weeks ago:



View attachment 212588 View attachment 212589 View attachment 212590

and Huitong replied ...




Deino
I don't think so, bro.

If im right, this photo scaned from a 2015 Chinese military magazine ... and below Chinese traslation is " new batch of WZ-10 armed helicopters test qualified & ready for PLA Army"
121845g64cbsck4ccpbsq4-jpg.212444



This photo took in 2014, and two batch of WZ-10 helos at the same place --- Jing De Zhen helicopter manufacturing company but in different time.
100752pxv0kxal5u5bzuc0-jpg.212541



My idea is since 2015 China WZ-10 armed helicopters updated ... future we need more new PLA photos to prove the WZ-10A or WZ-10H.
 
Last edited:
.
How many China is gifting to PAA? I have heard in some comment that 3 have already arrived and there will be a total of about 30-50 of them as gift to PAA to fight better against local and border insurgency with India-Afghanistan-IRAN.

Can PAA integrate CIRTI Rockets and Local and Turkish ATGM in Z-10Ps?
 
.
How many China is gifting to PAA? I have heard in some comment that 3 have already arrived and there will be a total of about 30-50 of them as gift to PAA to fight better against local and border insurgency with India-Afghanistan-IRAN.

Can PAA integrate CIRTI Rockets and Local and Turkish ATGM in Z-10Ps?
Current 3x WZ-10 for test in Pakistan, further orders should considered by Pakistan Army.
 
.
We are hearing that China will be giving Free of Cost to PAA to fight terrorism better. Also, US is planning to ship some more or the remaining AH-1 Cobras Upgraded along with some spares too.

PAA is interested in getting some more Cobras to continue the efforts.
 
.
Sorry, but these are not updated helicopters, but simply refurbished prototypes & preserials and even more the WZ-16 is not operational yet. That's sad, but simply a fan-boy's dream.

Just look at the airframe development .... and therefore I posted this idea at the CDF already a few weeks ago:



View attachment 212588 View attachment 212589 View attachment 212590

and Huitong replied ...




Deino
You are absolutely wrong. How do you know it does not have the new engine? You mean the wz16 turboshaft has a bigger dimension than WZ9 that cannot fit into older airframe? I don't think Chinese engineer are that dumb.

And clneio explain it very well that the magazine say new batch of WZ-10 join the fleet. Precisely the purpose of the PLA sponsor magazine which act as mouth piece of PLA is to brag about the new helo. Now you say it is actually a previous old dated configuration and even worst performance? It is just saying the PLA purposely humiliate itself? It is not logic.

The airframe is new and we do know WZ16 is ready by 2013 and production started 2014. 2015 is a good year for the new engine to be installed on WZ-10 gunship

Deino, as a moderator of Chinese military forum. You are too skeptical and see too little of China military advancement. If PLA is not confident of their WZ-10. I don't think they bother to gift 3 of them to PA to humiliate themselves with such underpowered and non sophisticated gunship.
 
. . .







Guidance system: semi-active laser
Launching platform: attack helicopters, UAVs
Effective range: 2,000 metres to 7,000 metres
Diameter: 170mm
Length: 1,775mm
Weight: 47kg
Hit probability: no less than 88% within effective range
Warhead: Tandem HEAT
Penetration: 1,400 mm/0°
Stabilised EO sight
TV detection range:
10km
TV identification range: 8km
Thermal imager detection range: 6km
Thermal imager identification range: 5km
Ground laser illuminator

Maximum illuminating range: 6km
 
.
Uppps … gents, please don’t get me wrong, but I think I need to explain my conclusion a bit more in detail:

I don't think so, bro.
If im right, this photo scaned from a 2015 Chinese military magazine ... and below Chinese traslation is " new batch of WZ-10 armed helicopters test qualified & ready for PLA Army"

This photo took in 2014, and two batch of WZ-10 helos at the same place --- Jing De Zhen helicopter manufacturing company but in different time.

My idea is since 2015 China WZ-10 armed helicopters updated ... future we need more new PLA photos to prove the WZ-10A or WZ-10H.

Yes, but even if published only recently it does not state, that the image itself is a recent one or even more likely IMO it is indeed a recent image, since these pre-serials are only delivered recently to the PLA after being modified to be used operationally.
You are absolutely wrong. How do you know it does not have the new engine? You mean the wz16 turboshaft has a bigger dimension than WZ9 that cannot fit into older airframe? I don't think Chinese engineer are that dumb.

I don’t think that the WZ-16 would require a new airframe since IMO it is built from the beginning to fit that type … as such to assume a new engine is off even more I don’t think Chinese engineers are dumb, but the WZ-16 aka Adiden 3C is at least from all information I have is simply still not ready. This latest member of the Ardiden-family is not even listed on the Turbomeca-HP, a first ground run – NOTE: not a test on an actual helicopter – was only done in November 2013 and You really believe reports that serial production started then already in China in 2014 ??? Simply NEVER.
http://www.turbomeca.com/english/our-products/helicopter-engines/ardiden-47/
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/turbomeca-completes-first-ground-run-of-ardiden-3c-393619/


And clneio explain it very well that the magazine say new batch of WZ-10 join the fleet. Precisely the purpose of the PLA sponsor magazine which act as mouth piece of PLA is to brag about the new helo. Now you say it is actually a previous old dated configuration and even worst performance? It is just saying the PLA purposely humiliate itself? It is not logic.
The airframe is new and we do know WZ16 is ready by 2013 and production started 2014. 2015 is a good year for the new engine to be installed on WZ-10 gunship

Yes, this could simply be since they only entered service now after being modified but they were built actually long before. As such I’m sure the current Z-10 – and please do not use this wrong WZ-designation, it’s plain wrong !! – uses an uprated version of the WZ-9, what type, version or modification I don’t know since I know, the Chinese are not stupid and from all films we know the Z-10 does not look that underpowered as some want to make it.

My point is that it is simply not logical to develop an airframe, identify certain issues, initiate a weight reduction program, build an improved serial version in high numbers and then completely reverse everything … and even more it is even less logical to deduct that a new engine must be installed only due to the old configuration. Wouldn’t it be much wiser to retain the already improven airframe and simply add the new engine ?? The old heavy tail-gear and windows are truly not related to an engine change. So why again the old configuration if these birds are not simply old ones ?

IMO it is the simplest explanation that these birds were modified for operational use, maybe only for training purpose, to let the pilots fly without a heavy load, maybe only as instruction trainers for ground crews … I don’t know, but simply to assume a new engine due to a step-back to the old fuselage/airframe is IMO a bit far-fetched. Therefore it is not a humiliation for the PLA, it is an economical decision to use them for a certain role … what role however is not stated and I don’t know.


Deino, as a moderator of Chinese military forum. You are too skeptical and see too little of China military advancement. If PLA is not confident of their WZ-10. I don't think they bother to gift 3 of them to PA to humiliate themselves with such underpowered and non sophisticated gunship.

Yes and NO ! First, a moderator does not has to be more or less confident, more or less skeptical than other’s … he has to be honest, fair and rational.

And regarding this issue, I did a lot of research on that type – by the way the AFM-report posted above is plain stupid since it contains too many errors ! – I think we should not see it black and white only.

IMO the Z-10 is a perfectly capable combat helicopter to be proud of, it is not underpowered per se or a humiliation for the Pakistani friends, but it seems as if it still lacks certain power to exploit its full potential. For example we have never seen 16 KD-10 ATGM on it but always only 8, that could be a possibility due to lacking images with 16, a certain PLA-doctrine, that only employs 8 but also a hint for a lack in engine-power, I don’t know – however it seems indeed as if the PLA is quite lucky with that type

Therefore I’m truly sure that all so far delivered Z-10s use an improved WZ-9, they are perfectly capable to do their job but an uprated version is projected (maybe for the Marines) that will use the WZ-16. However there are IMO too many arguments that simply exclude the WZ-16 right now and even more that these few birds are already this version. Even more since Huitong confirmed and agreed to my arguments.

To be sure however we have to see what the next unit’s birds will look like …
All the best,
Deino
 
.
Supporting my theory, here's an image of prototype 006 and this one already had the revised fuselage of the serial aircrafts.
Z-10 new gun on test on Pt. 006.jpg


... also interesting, it features some sort of new gun (some say of 25mm caliber) or IMO at least a new modification to the gun blast deflector ...

Z-10 new gun on test on Pt. 006 - 1.jpg
 
.
How many China is gifting to PAA? I have heard in some comment that 3 have already arrived and there will be a total of about 30-50 of them as gift to PAA to fight better against local and border insurgency with India-Afghanistan-IRAN.

Can PAA integrate CIRTI Rockets and Local and Turkish ATGM in Z-10Ps?

No many, I am afraid. The annual production of Z-10 is close to or below 40 at present. These toys are desperately wanted by PLA army, navy as well as air forces.
 
.
No many, I am afraid. The annual production of Z-10 is close to or below 40 at present. These toys are desperately wanted by PLA army, navy as well as air forces.


To admit, that's actually an interesting point and leds to another question: why is this production rate only so low, or is it simply low in our opinion and quite fine to the PLA's requirements or is it indeed low even by the PLA's will ... but only so low due to technical, financial or whatever reason ???

The same applies to the J-10 production rate and the question: Could it be bigger if potential customer appear or would then the PLA get fewer ??

Deino
 
.
I am going to tell you guys this based on experience...

Pilots, fixed or rotary wings, DO NOT like to wear helmets outside of their aircrafts unless it is absolutely necessary, like your base is under artillery bombardment. A pilot may don his helmet right at his aircraft, but it is considered dorky and uncool to be any distance from your machine wearing your helmet.

The helmet is not that heavy, but no one want to wear it for any longer than necessary. If you just came back from a sortie that involved a lot of maneuvering, your neck will be wearied from the weight multiplied several times under g forces and the helmet will be the first thing that you remove, even before you are out of the cockpit. The US is sometimes, though very rare, guilty of these propaganda pics, but I do see these often enough in other militaries. By the time you are out of your machine, your crew chief already have your helmet inside your bag and if you are wearing a g-suit, it is loosened a little bit to facilitate walking.

If you want to make an impression for family and your woman, holding your helmet is actually better than wearing it, especially with the chin strap fastened.

Finally...In the above pic, the helo model would NOT be allowed on the flightline -- Foreign Object Damage (FOD).
 
.
To admit, that's actually an interesting point and leds to another question: why is this production rate only so low, or is it simply low in our opinion and quite fine to the PLA's requirements or is it indeed low even by the PLA's will ... but only so low due to technical, financial or whatever reason ???

The same applies to the J-10 production rate and the question: Could it be bigger if potential customer appear or would then the PLA get fewer ??

Deino
it might be because of not many professionals to mass produce the engine.. or any related subsystems..
 
. .

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom