Your move, chief!

[lem34]

The Indian Army has never interfered in the country's governance, I am replying totally based on the article posted where it clearly looks like democracy is a sham in Pakistan. I am only saying is you are burdened with inept rulers in democracy why don't accept the fact that the PA is the ultimate and why bother of electing a democratic party when there is no use.

democracy in all countries is an ongoing process. We all accept no country has reached utopia. 50 years ago blacks didnt even have a vote in america the supposed bastion of democracy. Pakistan is a young country and if you look at other countries they have had blood letting and problems. I mean just look at the numbers killed in the french revolution etc. In any event what pakistanis do how quickly they arrive at that utopia that no country has arrived is a matter for pakistanis not for indians to tell us. Your army may not have interfered but I can pick holes in your "democracy" maybe we will save that for another day as we are going off topic.

Democracy in Pakistan and how we get there is a matter for pakistanis and its institutions and their sensibilities in a particular unique set of circumstances

---------- Post added at 09:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:16 PM ----------

It is very easy to criticize shortcomings in others, but very difficult to do better than them.

that applies to americans and indians too. dont throw stones when you live in glass house, in any event I submit that democracy in pakistan is a matter for pakistanis and their institutions not indians americans etc

 

[illusion8]

^^ yeah lets see in the future, but the present day democracy in PK is a farce and is at best upholded by the army for namesake.

 

[VCheng]

..............

that applies to americans and indians too. ..............

............... except that their results are actually better in some (India) and most (USA) cases, which was my original point.

 

[Nothing]

For you Indians that are taking this as an opportunity to bash Pakistan under the guise of an imperfect democracy I would say the following. democracy in its current form has shortcomings in every country that I can are to think of:

1.India In post 19 an Indian forum member is agreeing with me that the Indian system like the Pakistani system is a sham.

2. The ruling party in the UK received less than 20% of the votes. 80% of the people entitled to vote voted against or didnt vote for the current government. The result of this was that polls showed the public here in the UK were against an invasion of Iraq. but that was carried out in our name.

3. United States. We have a system where to get elected you need large amounts of money. AIPAC the Jewish lobby has undue influence on the foreign policy that it can be argued that American foreign policy is dictated from Tel Aviv. American political hopefuls live in fear of upsetting a small group of organised Jews. Zionists with their shareholdings control large segment of American press that it acts a propaganda arm for Zionists and brain washes the average American voter. One American forum member admitted to me privately by pm that he felt that this was the case.

4 You name the country and I will go and do the research and show you shortcomings.

Anyway we can discuss this on another thread back to topic PPP will stoop to any level to retain power. This idiot of a leader Zardari will as he sees power slipping away use the Sind card

No need to bash government in any south Asian country .. we as people of region once had most forward and modern cilcture of its time .. one of the most literate and advance people .. we lost our edge because of our attitude from last many centuries.....
For election process and democracy ... there are many fundamental flaws ..
for e.g. People vote for party A instead of Party B ... now after election results Party A and B support each other to form government ... Now tell me is this process honoring once vote which was for Party A against Party B ...where is moral reprehensibility of Party A , which got votes because of its standing against Party B and its policies..
As a shop owner if one will advertise discount/free/guarantee/warranty then later if he will not keep those words .. what you will do .. one might complain in consumer court right ... so why there is no system where we can make our politicians responsible for their promises before election ..
Can you select your son/daughter in you position in your office once you retire .. is there any employer in world will allow this .. then why this is happening in politics ...

Dear friends there are many other points I have because of my experience in same process .. you know in any state of India any party needs only 3%-5% of voter's shift towards them to come into power ... means generally those 5% people decide who will be winner ... rest are de-facto party loyalist ... do those loyalist represent healthy system ..

what happen if you are working in office and in between police comes and handcuffed you .. will your employer will keep in job .. why employers do background check before offering jobs.. why we don't follow same for politics..

Finally we need system which will be developed by us or best altered by us according to our needs... by keeping in mind that no human irrespective of his religion is not honest .. they all are motivated by their need for power ,money and status

 

[Awesome]

But i think that Supreme Court can order Army whenever needed and Zardari can be arrested on the order of Supreme Court by the hand of Army ( If Police refuse to take such action ) ( if he is guilty of treason ).

There is debate on that. The only way the SC can order the Army around is by invoking Article 190:

[Chapter 2: The Supreme Court of Pakistan] of [Part VII: The Judicature]

190. Action in aid of Supreme Court.
All executive and judicial authorities through out Pakistan shall act in aid of the Supreme Court.

The last time this article came close to being invoked was when Nawaz Sharif sent thugs to storm the Supreme Court. But Gen. Jehangir Karamat refused at that time.

But what will happen if Govt decided to remove CJ of Supreme Court or Govt try to remove Kayani and Pasha ?
I think if Govt decided to remove COAS and Pasha then SC will come forward and will save COAS and Pasha .
And if Govt decided to remove CJ then what will happen ? will army intervene then ?

These are things that the government contemplated? But it was calculated that the people's movement would uproot the Presidency if something like that happened. Army is what provides protection in times of extreme civil unrest, it may choose to not do so.

This is not an option that the PPP government would take lightly.

 

[Awesome]

Is the article really meaning to say that OBL Abbuttabad incident, Mehran Base incident and others are mentioned are actually due to civilian culpability? On top of that, the international clarity of not accepting any more coups and handiwork of the Pakistani Army is totally ignored while reading Kayani's tame response to Gilani's agressiveness.

Officially, this being a democratic government, the blame falls on the civilian leadership for allowing American aircraft in. The drone attacks, were squarely laid on the civilian government when the Air Chief said "we can take the drones out, only a decision is needed by the government", the government did not refute it. On OBL's presence the government official gave Shuja Pasha another chance.

The Military may be called responsible, but the government is accountable.

This is just parroting the same old "Pakistani Army is the best and it's interference in civilian affairs is a must" story.

Nowhere has it been said ""Pakistani Army is the best and it's interference in civilian affairs is a must". The central premise being that the best move for the Army is to not interfere - at least not directly. If they give behind the scenes support to someone like minded, that would be hard to prove.

 

[RazPaK]

It seems like this forum is filled with Pakistanis that are so crazy for democrazy, that it's going to ruin us all. "Please sir, let democrazy take it's natural course." To hell with your democrazy, when the country will be in ruins. What's the point then? We have to save our country and you guys are sitting there telling me the army is baaad.

I wish we had 2-3 year mandatory army service in Pakistan for everyone, then crackpots like some of you wouldn't be able to talk bad about the army at all. Also the first ones to high-tail it out of the country for good would be the corrupt dynasty policitians that should in my eyes be hanged.

Our trecherous leaders are giving up PAF frequencies, and nuclear site locations to the US, and you guys are sitting there crying about your democracy.

Like wtf guys?

 

[Awesome]

Imran Khan does promise a sweeping change but inducting spent cartridges likes of Sardar Asif Ali is not going to help his game.

Sardar Asif Ali, maybe, I think no one in PTI took that announcement seriously. But I think what PTI couldn't do in 15 years, Qureshi did in 2 months. Expect big things, this wave is only getting bigger. Time to admit it, now. Hassan Nisaar pointed out that its now time to stop saying there are 2 mainstream parties in Pakistan. PTI is the third big one.

 

[Thorough Pro]

It's in time like these that real men show their true chracter. It is so sad to see such immature pin heads to be sitting at positions of President and prime minister. All they can think of is their personal interest.

 

[Awesome]

It seems like this forum is filled with Pakistanis that are so crazy for democrazy, that it's going to ruin us all. "Please sir, let democrazy take it's natural course." To hell with your democrazy, when the country will be in ruins. What's the point then? We have to save our country and you guys are sitting there telling me the army is baaad.

I am a big proponent of democracy, however there are certain lines I will not cross even if the decision is democratic. For ex. compromising on our nuclear assets.

Like wtf guys?

The issue is process. If you break process once, it will be broken again and again and again. When Musharraf was good, he was good but when he closed down Geo, we were just looking at his face. So it is important, its not for the fun of it.

 

[Awesome]

Look, first of all democracy is imperfect anywhere. There are power groups everywhere. Where others influence things more subtly in Pakistan the need to do it more overtly has always been there.

It is wrong either way, true people's representatives should come forward and they should do as they people want them to do. The good news is this Army, as of today, wants to see that happen. Its a first step and thats why they have retained some lines that they won't allow anyone to cross and the reason you are seeing public rally behind them is because these are the lines the Public doesn't want our government to cross.

So the people's will is being done, only difference is that we can't stick to a process where we can be sure of it 100% of the time that this is the people's will.

So democracy is the only way, but the culture of listening to your constituents after you are elected in should also be there. The fear of people's power should also be there, then the fear of the COAS won't be needed.

 

[Windjammer]

Sardar Asif Ali, maybe, I think no one in PTI took that announcement seriously. But I think what PTI couldn't do in 15 years, Qureshi did in 2 months. Expect big things, this wave is only getting bigger. Time to admit it, now. Hassan Nisaar pointed out that its now time to stop saying there are 2 mainstream parties in Pakistan. PTI is the third big one.

There is no doubt public are fed up with the old merry go around and both require and need a sweeping changes, and they are indeed looking up to Imran Khan to deliver. Hassan Nisaar indeed is a highly credible observer, albeit, one shouldn't bother him after 9.00 PM, the danger is that the likes of Sardars and Hashmis are merely "hangers on" and in no position for deliverance....Qasoori, i'll give him the benefit of doubt... we all witnessed how once popular Pervez Musharraf was let down by the cronies. Success in our part of the world tends to go to people's head. Surely hope Imran can salvage from his past 15 years experiences.

 

[shuntmaster]

This is the best situation for the Pakistan military. They have all the power without any responsibility..

 

[Awesome]

There is no doubt public are fed up with the old merry go around and both require and need a sweeping changes, and they are indeed looking up to Imran Khan to deliver. Hassan Nisaar indeed is a highly credible observer, albeit, one shouldn't bother him after 9.00 PM, the danger is that the likes of Sardars and Hashmis are merely "hangers on" and in no position for deliverance....Qasoori, i'll give him the benefit of doubt... we all witnessed how once popular Pervez Musharraf was let down by the cronies. Success in our part of the world tends to go to people's head. Surely hope Imran can salvage from his past 15 years experiences.

Old turncoats, switching sides for personal benefit, is only a dialogue. Whenever its risen in front of PTI members they have been able to aptly dispel the notion.

1. ISI couldn't have turned Javed Hashmi. Hashmi who has been tortured by agencies and is a seasoned politician saw something in PTI and saw that its not controlled from Aabpara, joined them. Moreover even still if the they have the backing of agencies, PTI can't do anything about it.
2. ISI can't drag out 300,000+ crowd each time a jalsa is called. Its impractical to assume ISI went to each person and told them to come out in support of Imran Khan and no one is the wiser.
3. The people we are calling Turncoats, they have a right to participate in politics and align with like minded people. Back in the 80s, PPP seemed like they will turn things around, someone could have joined them, then Nawaz seemed like the non-corrupt option, people could have switched to them, Musharraf was good for a while... Now if someone settles on PTI, we shouldn't jump to the assumption that there is something fishy, we should look at it from the perspective of the party taking them and that their own reputation is clean. You need solid evidence to levy such charges, not just fashionable dialogues.

 

[Developereo]

I agree with the article that Kayani is doing the right thing. The worst thing you can do to a wannabe martyr is play their game. Let Zardari and co. go down in history for their crimes against the country, not as martyrs.

The only concern I have is that Zardari hasn't played his last card. What will be his next move to try and prod the army into action? How low will he go?