World Bank approves $12 billion, five-year loan for Pakistan: Ishaq Dar

[Dubious]

@Talon

1. " PML-N President Mian Nawaz Sharif said Sunday his party, if came into power, would try to resolve the ongoing power crisis in six months. Speaking at a conference here, Nawaz Sharif denounced claims to end the load shedding in three months as lies"

This should clear the worth of objections. Read this a few times if it does not make sense the first time. This is the reference provided by @Leader at your request.

2. Any fool can see that it is not possible to tackle the power crisis in less than 3 years.

Our PM is a fool for saying 3mths hana?

3. Politicians talk a lot. One has to know how to make sense. People are instinctively drawn to strong do-or-die personalities like SS. He is known to make tall claims. But he is also known for getting things done. That is why people voted for him. If you were to make an issue out of his claims, you would be laughed at. People want to get things done, not cry about politicians' claims.

Na liar is a liar no matter how much sugar coat you do! Yes, I agree politicians should talk less and do their work and produce results!

Voters know what to make of impossible claims. He once said during a by-election rally in Hazara that he would price roti at Rs 1 - a clear impossibility. PML-N candidate lost that election. So, people are smart enough to know who to vote for and what to do with politicians' claims.

Yes, habitual liar I see..

4. When it comes to lies, our very own IK is doing a good job these days. And I trusted him to not lie. What was I thinking? He is a politician now and prone to all the mistakes that they make - including stating glaring contradictions for the sake of getting attention.

Yes I pointed it out once when he claimed he would not tolerate lootayray but he took the very same lootayray of other parties...

5. I understand your contention that since NS is in power he gets the blame. But I still think that it is not fair. I would just re-iterate that politicians are judged on their performance, not promises. Every politician would have you think that he would make Pakistan Paradise in five years. You just need to know what to do with those claims.

Yes we are waiting for results...in the meanwhile any decision he makes effects us and since he was "voted" by us and is our voice...we have every right to criticize a wrong move...Democracy ring a bell?

6. The theme of 2013 elections was survival as a nation. That is why PML-N got majority of votes. People were instinctively drawn to them, because they believed PML-N could do a better job. We need at least another year or two to see if that confidence was misplaced.

Fair enough...But he must justify or at least show his plan on how to pay back the loans he is taking...that really is worrying that you just keep signing like an anghutha chaap but dont show proper plans like a para likha!

PTI's talk of massive rigging etc... is just talk for getting attention. Rigging at one level or another takes place in every election. The general opinion is that even without any rigging, PML-N would still have formed government in Center and Punjab. If they were ambitious, they could have had a go in KPK as well. It is NS's maturity as a politician that he has not paid any heed to JUI-F and others to make a bid for government in KPK. It has taken him a lifetime to get to this stage. Indeed politicians are not made in a year or two, based on bookish learning. This is a totally practical field that requires decades of effort.

Agreed...

 

[VCheng]

There is a difference.....If a person takes loan to buy a BMW, he is getting rich...and if he is taking loan to buy food, he is getting poor.......

Even the person buying the BMW is in more debt to acquire a depreciating asset. In both cases, only the entity making the loans is getting rich off the interest. It is only the person taking out a loan to invest in a business that makes more money than the interest due on the loans that is growing any richer.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well Nawaz promised , crisis for energy resolved in 6 months , did not happened , and will take 8 years , so he failed which is why he is now focused on Metro Bus in Islamabad.

The privatization attempt is reasonable , lets see what happens, recently telecom licences worth 5-8 billion were sold for 700 Million so lets see how much PIA would sell for may be 400 million ?

The world bank deals lets see what else is being sold for this loan

KPK government is delivering the goods , education + schools + civilian services change

Sindh government well all I see is Bilawal gaining few pounds of weight so he looks older then his age for political reason
other then that no major project in works

Balouchistan , well no one knows what is happening there apart from old projects done by Musharaf

 

[Pakistanisage]

PMLN is running the govt. on Loans and Borrowed Money....

 

[tarrar]

When Ishaq DOLLAR starts to come on media often then it means only one thing, they are preparing for massive loans. Where is this money going, I don't see them getting used in Pakistan anywhere? answer is corruption, who will pay these loans? answer is no one. corrupt politicians will come & rob Pakistan.

 

[F.O.X]

They have Broken the Kashkol ... as it was not big enough ... now they have taken up the "Daig" ... lets see how long it lasts .

 

[Jzaib]

now gangas will speand all of them on their PR .. on loan schemes , laptops schemes, jangla bus scheme and youth festivile to win the next election .. by the end of this term i guess we would have more then 100 billion of loan upon us

 

[Chak Bamu]

Our PM is a fool for saying 3mths hana? .

Read the quotes again. Nowhere is PM saying 3 months. He is not even saying that he would finish loadshedding in 6 months. Look at his words again. You are reading your own mind into it and not looking at the words or the context.

Na liar is a liar no matter how much sugar coat you do! Yes, I agree politicians should talk less and do their work and produce results!

I agree - a liar is a liar. But it is no sugar coating to point out that politicians lie as a matter or routine. I do not like this. But I would pick the best from among lying politicians who gets a few things done and gets many things right by keeping the nation together. The criticism of politicians is still taken as an implicit support for generals. That is the unfortunate truth and the reason why I do not like unbalanced criticism of politicians. That is the reason why we are having this exchange. If you value constitutionalism you would see why I take this matter seriously.

Yes, habitual liar I see..

Indeed. But a habitual liar that gets things done, and that is the reason why he gets elected and gets votes for his party, PML-N.

Yes I pointed it out once when he claimed he would not tolerate lootayray but he took the very same lootayray of other parties...

That is one of the reasons. Yes. But there is more. @Leader will have a cow if I start listing his blunders. Until recently I like IK much more than others. But man, his advisors suck. And he sucks because he chose his advisors according to his own inclinations. Not good. Not good at all. But still support for PTI means rejection of dynasty politics and that still has much value.

Yes we are waiting for results...in the meanwhile any decision he makes effects us and since he was "voted" by us and is our voice...we have every right to criticize a wrong move...Democracy ring a bell?

We have not option but to wait. Criticize logically all you want. I am with you. But if PA starts to think that they should have another go at government, then all that criticism should be cast aside in support of constitutionalism. If we could survive Zardari, we can survive Nawaz Sharif.

Fair enough...But he must justify or at least show his plan on how to pay back the loans he is taking...that really is worrying that you just keep signing like an anghutha chaap but dont show proper plans like a para likha!

PML-N is not known for transparency. The typical decision making process involves select members of "kitchen cabinet". Outside this small circle (NS, SS, Ishaq Dar, Ch. Nisar, maybe Kh. Asif / Saad Rafique / Ahsan Iqbal). Even other cabinet members do not like this type of decision making, since they and other elected members of PML-N have to defend these decisions. We should criticize that opacity. But our criticism may not change this entrenched style. Best wait for someone else in a few years.

 

[Dubious]

Read the quotes again. Nowhere is PM saying 3 months. He is not even saying that he would finish loadshedding in 6 months. Look at his words again. You are reading your own mind into it and not looking at the words or the context.

I will take your word for it and read it again...good thing he used try...saved him...

I agree - a liar is a liar. But it is no sugar coating to point out that politicians lie as a matter or routine. I do not like this. But I would pick the best from among lying politicians who gets a few things done and gets many things right by keeping the nation together. The criticism of politicians is still taken as an implicit support for generals. That is the unfortunate truth and the reason why I do not like unbalanced criticism of politicians. That is the reason why we are having this exchange. If you value constitutionalism you would see why I take this matter seriously.

Unfortunately I am starting to doubt the constituition and would really like it revised or if it is good enough like all ministers to have it memorized and recite the important parts with the Qaumi nagma every morning during assembly to remind them of who they are serving not ruling!

Indeed. But a habitual liar that gets things done, and that is the reason why he gets elected and gets votes for his party, PML-N.

Well hopefully he gets things done this time...Like you suggested to wait and that is what I am doing...and so is the nation!

That is one of the reasons. Yes. But there is more. @Leader will have a cow if I start listing his blunders. Until recently I like IK much more than others. But man, his advisors suck. And he sucks because he chose his advisors according to his own inclinations. Not good. Not good at all. But still support for PTI means rejection of dynasty politics and that still has much value.

agreed...maybe Pakistan is better served if each province will have a different party serving it that way we can see where most development occurred and where most money disappeared?

We have not option but to wait. Criticize logically all you want. I am with you. But if PA starts to think that they should have another go at government, then all that criticism should be cast aside in support of constitutionalism. If we could survive Zardari, we can survive Nawaz Sharif.

Why are you against PA? Is our constitution soo sound that you support it to the core?

PML-N is not known for transparency. The typical decision making process involves select members of "kitchen cabinet". Outside this small circle (NS, SS, Ishaq Dar, Ch. Nisar, maybe Kh. Asif / Saad Rafique / Ahsan Iqbal). Even other cabinet members do not like this type of decision making, since they and other elected members of PML-N have to defend these decisions. We should criticize that opacity. But our criticism may not change this entrenched style. Best wait for someone else in a few years.

It should be transparent ...is that not in the constitution? It should be there as a reminder they are serving the nation not the other way round hence the nation has every right to know where resources are disappearing to and how much and how much money is coming in and how much going out and for what and where to?!

PMLN is running the govt. on Loans and Borrowed Money....

Which we will end up having to pay from nothing (no infrastructure no gas no electricity )

@Chak Bamu I aint the only one pointing his promise!

Well Nawaz promised , crisis for energy resolved in 6 months , did not happened , and will take 8 years , so he failed which is why he is now focused on Metro Bus in Islamabad.

 

[ajpirzada]

6.6 billion from IMF; 2 billion from International market; 12 billion from WB; and, potentially more than 1 billion from sukuk. Best of all, every single of this loan is/will be denominated in dollar terms. Hail the N-Legonomics!

...

Pakistan is facing a large shortfall in tax revenue. Some wealthy Pakistanis pay no income tax, which the government has repeatedly promised, and failed to change.

Many legislators and some ministers evade tax, according to the Center for Investigative Reporting in Pakistan, a non-government organization.

...
World Bank approves $12 billion, five-year loan for Pakistan: Ishaq Dar – The Express Tribune

why should anyone pay tax when there is no penalty to follow? instead only a cherry on top - that is amnesty schemes.

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

It seem $12 billion does not include Dasu dam. Dar is hopefull of WB approving loan for Dasu dam.

 

[Chak Bamu]

I will take your word for it and read it again...good thing he used try...saved him...

Any politician worth his name is very careful with his words. So is NS. SS on the other hand is another story.

Unfortunately I am starting to doubt the constituition and would really like it revised ...
.
.
.
.
Why are you against PA? Is our constitution soo sound that you support it to the core?

I am not against PA. I am against political role of PA and the mess that causes. Our history is a testament to that folly. One has to be blind to not see that. Only special interest groups peddle stories to confuse this fact. Sadly, many gullible / unwise / superficial people buy the flawed narrative and turn half-baked propagandists themselves.

Our constitution is great. It suits our environment and has been ratified by ALL the different parties / segments / schools of thought, ranging from socialists to ultra-conservatives. Casting doubts about our constitution is a pet project for special interest groups cited in the paragraph above. The people who framed our constitution in 1973 were not stupid. They had seen British India, struggle for independence, Pakistan movement, struggle to establish a new country, the vicissitudes of bureaucratic meddling and preponderance in politics, 1956 constitution and its violation by generals, Martial Law, rebellion in East Pakistan, break-up of our country, revolt against Yahya Khan, and then a provisional civilian martial law. They had a lot on their plate when they came up with 1973 constitution. Please have some respect for their experience, their intellect, and their effort. Any effort to frame another constitution would break Pakistan as it exists today.

Why is it that the calls for another constitution (and the problems this can of worms would entail) invariably come from people who are either related to PA, or have a soft corner for it? The problem is with their security-centered authoritarian world-view, and not constitution as such. Their efficiency & order related arguments are just gross smoke screens to hide elitism that can not flourish in democracy.

A little respect for constitution goes a long way in making a country system-oriented, civilized, & respectable.

It should be transparent ...is that not in the constitution? It should be there as a reminder they are serving the nation not the other way round hence the nation has every right to know where resources are disappearing to and how much and how much money is coming in and how much going out and for what and where to?!

I agree with this whole-heartedly... I hope we get better people in next election cycle in 2018.

@Chak Bamu I aint the only one pointing his promise!

Ah, you quashed the relevance of this in your last post. Why bring it up?

 

[Dubious]

Any politician worth his name is very careful with his words. So is NS. SS on the other hand is another story.



I am not against PA. I am against political role of PA and the mess that causes. Our history is a testament to that folly. One has to be blind to not see that. Only special interest groups peddle stories to confuse this fact. Sadly, many gullible / unwise / superficial people buy the flawed narrative and turn half-baked propagandists themselves.

Our constitution is great. It suits our environment and has been ratified by ALL the different parties / segments / schools of thought, ranging from socialists to ultra-conservatives. Casting doubts about our constitution is a pet project for special interest groups cited in the paragraph above. The people who framed our constitution in 1973 were not stupid. They had seen British India, struggle for independence, Pakistan movement, struggle to establish a new country, the vicissitudes of bureaucratic meddling and preponderance in politics, 1956 constitution and its violation by generals, Martial Law, rebellion in East Pakistan, break-up of our country, revolt against Yahya Khan, and then a provisional civilian martial law. They had a lot on their plate when they came up with 1973 constitution. Please have some respect for their experience, their intellect, and their effort. Any effort to frame another constitution would break Pakistan as it exists today.

Why is it that the calls for another constitution (and the problems this can of worms would entail) invariably come from people who are either related to PA, or have a soft corner for it? The problem is with their security-centered authoritarian world-view, and not constitution as such. Their efficiency & order related arguments are just gross smoke screens to hide elitism that can not flourish in democracy.

A little respect for constitution goes a long way in making a country system-oriented, civilized, & respectable.

Sorry I may not have respect for the constitution coz I dont see it being followed...Hence, I kinda suppose it may not be in the constitution to start with...i.e. rights of minorities...

Lastly, what the people knew when they coined the constitution is not in my knowledge...However reviewing it might help and then after improving it (if need be) making it obligatory that each politician recites it daily in the morning and air this can help ensure that they cant say they were not aware of this and that or slipped their mind or something along those likes...

 

[ziaulislam]

Well Nawaz promised , crisis for energy resolved in 6 months , did not happened , and will take 8 years , so he failed which is why he is now focused on Metro Bus in Islamabad.

The privatization attempt is reasonable , lets see what happens, recently telecom licences worth 5-8 billion were sold for 700 Million so lets see how much PIA would sell for may be 400 million ?

The world bank deals lets see what else is being sold for this loan

KPK government is delivering the goods , education + schools + civilian services change

Sindh government well all I see is Bilawal gaining few pounds of weight so he looks older then his age for political reason
other then that no major project in works

Balouchistan , well no one knows what is happening there apart from old projects done by Musharaf

I am fan of PTI not PML N but currently PIA is not even worth a penny, its true value is somewheere around -(minus)250 billion rupees due to liablites.
even if govt take on the liablites noone will buy it unless it goes into profit and some people are layed off.
the licenses sale was pretty good but govt did one mistake to split the 10mhz into 5,5 probably because both telenor and ufone were not going to take part in the bidding..thats why govt fetch 100-200 million less than what they should have