Woman raped on Lahore Ring Road, infront of her two children.

[shah_123]

You've offered no logical rebuttal to the points I made about the flaws in 'blood money'.

If you don't want to discuss the issue further because of the thread being hijacked, then you shouldn't have responded, but you did. Merely throwing out the Islam card and implicitly threatening people who disagree with your views is a disgusting display of using threats to shut down debate and is not going to change the fact that you have offered no rational counterargument.

Again derailing the thread?

this ain't the place+ I don't waste time with athiests/liberals/seculars/agnostics, not because I have ego, but due the fact that these people don't want to understand -- these people hardly know the ABC of Islamic laws and what they want to do is debate.

Rebuttal was made in my very brief post, those who wanted to understand, they did and those who didn't; they never will.

 

[Paul2]

Do you have experience dealing with armed robbers or something? Have you seen people getting shot at from point blank range or something? Talk is cheap, tough guy.

Yes, lived a part of my life in a country where a robbery usually starts with a shot to the back, against which no response can be taken by the victim. Still... there were cases when assailants were shot back by passer by, or by mortally wounded, but yet alive victims. This is why I am saying that it's better to be shot, and have a slim chance to shoot back, than be shot, and just die, doing nothing.

It is to signal the societal non-acceptance of crime as something just ignored, and let pass, and go. Criminals must feel impediment from the entirety of society, and be hounded on every step, wherever they are. They must be made to know that they can't "win" against the society, as eventually, by somebody, somewhere, some time they will be caught, humiliated, and punished, no matter how well they hide, or how big of a gun they have to protect themselves.

Do WE desire a society in which LAW & ORDER SYSTEM should deliver (or) WE desire a society in which LAW OF THE JUNGLE should prevail and anybody should be allowed to kill anybody to address a problem/dispute? How would WE know who is in the RIGHT and who is in the WRONG?

Do you need to put much thinking decided who is wrong in the case of rape, or robbery?

Second, In my opinion, a law of the jungle is better than no law at all, or a law that is completely ruined, and failed.

Life in a country where children, and women don't have to hide at night, like as if they were on the enemy territory, is beautiful.

It's for people of your country to decide if they want to live in their, or enemy's territory.

 

[shah_123]

He is only presenting a certain interpretation of Islam that supports his pov while conveniently ignoring other/contradicting views.

For example, as we are talking about "Pakistan" here, he has conveniently ignored the fact that scholars like Sir Syed Ahmed Khan (the founder of two nation theory), Muhammad Asad (Jinnah's advisor on religious matters) and Ghulam Ahmed Pervez (prominent Quran scholar) have translated qisas/diyat verses differently and that they didn't agree with the classic interpretation of Diyat laws. They have noted that murder can be with or without intent and maintained that in the former the punishment is death, not ransom money, whereas in the latter, the punishment is payment of money as compensation, as ordained in Quran. 4:92

All I asked was, from where did this blood money came into equation in this very thread --- gang rapes have nothing to do with blood money --- it's beyond my understanding what you both are trying to achieve in the context of this very rape incident?

 

[M. Sarmad]

All I asked was, from where did this blood money came into equation in this very thread --- gang rapes have nothing to do with blood money --- it's beyond my understanding what you both are trying to achieve in the context of this very rape incident?

And I was talking about misuse and abuse of Sharia laws. For example:

Sharjah: Four men facing the death penalty for raping, killing and dismembering an Ethiopian maid five years ago have been bailed after blood money was paid to the victim’s family.

Family of dead maid accepts blood money

Four men, who were sentenced to death for rape and murder, were bailed

gulfnews.com

 

[shah_123]

Do you have experience dealing with armed robbers or something? Have you seen people getting shot at from point blank range or something? Talk is cheap, tough guy.

Having the experience couple of times, I say, it's very very tough -- you have to make decision quickly as what you want to do -- do you want to make it do or die, or you want to look around for the safety of your family.

I have some scores to settle with these coward ********, and I make Duas that I am all alone at that time --- Ya mein nai, Ya o nai; no middle ground.

 

[truthfollower]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1304063147419074566

 

[LeGenD]

Yes, lived a part of my life in a country where a robbery usually starts with a shot to the back, against which no response can be taken by the victim. Still... there were cases when assailants were shot back by passer by, or by mortally wounded, but yet alive victims. This is why I am saying that it's better to be shot, and have a slim chance to shoot back, than be shot, and just die, doing nothing.

It is to signal the societal non-acceptance of crime as something just ignored, and let pass, and go. Criminals must feel impediment from the entirety of society, and be hounded on every step, wherever they are. They must be made to know that they can't "win" against the society, eventually, somebody, somewhere, some time they will be caught, humiliated, and punished, no matter how well they hide, or how big of a gun they have.
Do you need to put much thinking decided who is wrong in the case of rape, or robbery?

Second, In my opinion, a law of the jungle is better than no law at all, or a law that is completely ruined, and failed.

Life in a country where children, and women don't have to hide at night, like as if they were on the enemy territory, is beautiful.

It's for people of your country to decide if they want to live in their, or enemy's territory.

Mate,

I completely understand the urge and need to give a befitting response to armed robbers - assuming this is possible in personal capacity. I would try to do the same (Allah Almighty keep me and my family safe; Ameen).

However, it is also important to understand what a potential instigator is really up to. Would you be willing to kill someone for merely demanding belongings? If you really need to, shoot the instigator in the leg and then call the Police. Let the LAW take its course.

Every sane individual desire a CRIME-FREE environment but this is not possible through practice of vigilante justice. Violence begets violence unfortunately. If you are trigger happy, you will make lot of enemies and chances are that somebody will pursue you and your family and take revenge at some point.

Do not try to be Terminator in your dealings in life. LAW & ORDER SYSTEM was created for good reason. People should exert pressure on the government to improve LAW & ORDER SYSTEM instead.

It is also important to understand why people resort to criminal activities. Socio-economic injustice? Exposure to crime? Lack of education? It is important to address these problems.

It is important to create a SOCIETY.

Law of the jungle does not work in reality and will lead to societal ruin. EXTERNAL VULTURES will tear your country apart if it is internally compromised. Pakistan cannot afford to be internally compromised given its security environment and considerations.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

What I heard on TV that she is a French national and is visiting Pakistan. Her husband is still in France.

This is how we treat our guests? Shame.

Not one, two skulls, but dozens, even hundreds, need to roll for this.

Totally unacceptable.

@Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @PakSword
What shall we do with these Libros..

We bring Islamic Nizam. Carry out first of many hudood punishment on these scum.

Stone or hang to death. Leave their bodies up for one week, next to a pile of stones.

Let anyone who wishes, stone their corpse.

Consistency is key. This needs to happen every time.

خاتون اور اس کی فیملی فرانس میں رہتے تھے۔ ان کے پاس وہاں کی نیشنیلٹی بھی تھی۔ خاتون کے ایک رشتہ دار کا کہنا ہے کہ وہ اپنے بچوں کو لے کر پاکستان آئی تھی کہ بچے یہیں پڑھیں اور یہیں کے اسلامی کلچر کے مطابق پلیں بڑھیں۔
ایک ایجنسی کے دوست کا کہنا ہے کہ ہم لوگ جس وقت جائے وقوعہ پر پہنچے خاتون پولیس والوں کے آگے گڑگڑا رہی تھی کہ مجھے گولی مار دو۔میں زندہ نہیں رہنا چاہتی۔ وہ ان لوگوں کو خدا کے واسطے دے رہی تھی کہ مجھے گولی مار دو۔ انہیں ان کے بچوں کا واسطہ دے رہی تھی کہ مجھے مار دو۔ اس کے اس مطالبے پر عمل نہیں ہوا تو اس نے دوسرا مطالبہ سامنے رکھا۔
خاتون کا کہنا تھا کہ یہاں موجود سب لوگ حلف دیں کہ اس واقعے کے بارے میں کسی کو نہیں بتائیں گے۔ اس کے خاندان اور کسی بھی اور شخص کو اس وقوعے کے بارے میں پتہ نہ چلے۔وہ مقدمہ درج نہیں کرانا چاہتی۔ یہاں موجود ایک ایس پی صاحب نے خاتون کو یقین دہانی کرائی کہ یہ وقوعہ بالکل بھی ہائی لائٹ نہیں ہو گا۔
دوست کا کہنا ہے کہ خاتون کی حالت انتہائی خراب تھی۔ عموما فارنزک سائنس ایجنسی والے ایسے مواقع پر وکٹم کی تصاویر لیتے ہیں۔ لیکن خاتون کی حالت ایسی افسوسناک اور دردناک تھی کہ کسی کی ہمت نہیں پڑی کہ وہ اسے اس کام کیلئے کہہ سکے یا تصاویر اتار سکے۔ وہ ہاتھ جوڑ کر ان کی منتیں کر رہی تھی کہ مجھے قتل کر دو۔
خاتون شاید اسے فرانس سمجھ کر ہی رات کے اس پہر بچوں کو لے کر گوجرانولہ جانے کیلئے نکلی تھی کہ کونسا زیادہ سفر ہے۔ ایک گھنٹے میں گوجرانوالہ پہنچ جائیں گے۔ لیکن اسے نہیں پتہ تھا کہ یہ پاکستان ہے۔ یہ مسلمانوں کا ملک ہے۔ [emoji2969][emoji24]

Ya Allah. I have no words.

May Allah swt bless her in all her affairs and ease the trauma of her husband, children, and family/friends.

She should be given chance to kill those rapists herself. Give her some stones and let her and her husband stone them.

These criminals should not even be buried.

 

[Paul2]

Having the experience couple of times, I say, it's very very tough -- you have to make decision quickly as what you want to do -- do you want to make it do or die, or you want to look around for the safety of your family.

Yes, when you are being shot, you have split seconds to take the gun, turn towards the aggressor, point it, and shoot back before the assailant fires a finishing shot.

When receiving a firearms training when working on automation project for an oil refinery in one of less lawful African countries, i was told "if you can hear a shot, be glad as it means you still have brains in the head to hear it with."

It takes a few times a week firing range exercise to generate, and maintain the reflex, and reaction time necessary to have even the most minimal chance to respond to being shot. And you specifically need a gun with no safety, that relies solely on trigger discipline to prevent accidental discharge. And also, that gun has to be very small, and slim to allow for concealed carrying everyday, to not to alert an assailant.

Given how small of chance you have, even if you are ready to sacrifice so much of your everyday life to it, anybody practicing less has no chance whatsoever.

Without this level of dedication you have no chances at all, unless you travel in an armed group, who can shoot back people who shot you.

In three years of the project (I myself was there for only 1 month,) one foreign woman engineer was nabbed, and robbed despite carrying a gun, and 1 bodyguard of an engineering company CEO was shot, and robbed, because robbers took the bodyguard for a VIP.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Blood money shouldn’t exist for any kind of crime, especially not for any kind of violent crime.

Just because the victim of a crime is satisfied by receiving money from the perpetrator does not mean that the criminal won’t commit the same or other crimes again. Letting a criminal go free after paying blood money puts the rest of society at risk, and the concept itself favors the wealthy - those who have the money and resources can just pay their way out of crimes they commit.

The State has an obligation to prosecute and punish, to the fullest extent of the law, individuals who have committed crimes, especially violent ones. Whether Islam supports the concept of blood money as practiced in Pakistan I have no idea, but murderers have been ‘forgiven’ and walked free after blood money has been paid in Pakistan, and that is disgusting.

So no, I don’t support blood money and next time avoid violating forum rules and engaging in personal attacks.

Blood money does not apply to rape.

 

[Paul2]

It is important to create a SOCIETY.

Of course it's important, and given that it's even more important to make it obvious that the society has your back, that all and everybody in the society share that level of resoluteness.

You will never be able to rally people if they see their leaders being impotent, and see other people just passing by when crime happens meters away from them.

Such people should be made ashamed for them doing so. They should not feel right.

If people think that they can't win, they will not fight.

Make them feel they are winning battles, many of them, one after another, and then it will become an unstoppable avalanche. The miscreant enemies will give up, rout, and run, like an enemy after it understood that it lost a chance to victory.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Of course it's important, and given that it's even more important to make it obvious that the society has your back, that all and everybody in the society share that level of resoluteness.

You will never be able to rally people if they see their leaders being impotent, and see other people just passing by when crime happens meters away from them.

Such people should be made ashamed for them doing so. They should not feel right.

Pakistanis need to get out in the streets and protest.

We need to demand Islamic punishments against these crimes.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Blood money does not apply to rape.

I understand that. My comment was more general in response to another poster asking for changes in our laws to better address certain issues. The religious and tribal/rural lobbies in Pakistan have opposed reforms in certain laws many times, whether establishing a minimum age for marriage, qisas/diyat laws etc.

We had some pretty abhorrent laws related to rape at one point that you no doubt will recall, where a woman had to present 4 male witnesses to establish sexual assault. That law was finally repealed, but I was referring to obstacles such as these.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

I understand that. My comment was more general in response to another poster asking for changes in our laws to better address certain issues. The religious and tribal/rural lobbies in Pakistan have opposed reforms in certain laws many times, whether establishing a minimum age for marriage, qisas/diyat laws etc.

We had some pretty abhorrent laws related to rape at one point that you no doubt will recall, where a woman had to present 4 male witnesses to establish sexual assault. That law was finally repealed, but I was referring to obstacles such as these.

Yes, that is pretty terrible.

As I stated earlier brother, DNA evidence or evidence of abduction/physical abuse are grounds to charge rape equal to witnesses.

Usually 4 witnesses applies to zina between two consenting adults, whereas a rape victim is not consenting and hence a witness to the crime.

As far as age of consent, some areas have low ages for a reason. I believe we should not interfere too much in those areas. Some regions poor parents are not able to take care of daughters and may find them a burden, or marrying early will prevent fahisha in their society according to them.

I myself am in favor of lowering age of consent as much as possible, within reason, to make marriages easier for people who wish to marry. Another problem is overspending on weddings, we need laws to curb it.

 

[xyx007]

This is how we treat our guests? Shame.

Not one, two skulls, but dozens, even hundreds, need to roll for this.

Totally unacceptable.



We bring Islamic Nizam. Carry out first of many hudood punishment on these scum.

Stone or hang to death. Leave their bodies up for one week, next to a pile of stones.

Let anyone who wishes, stone their corpse.

Consistency is key. This needs to happen every time.



Ya Allah. I have no words.

May Allah swt bless her in all her affairs and ease the trauma of her husband, children, and family/friends.

She should be given chance to kill those rapists herself. Give her some stones and let her and her husband stone them.

These criminals should not even be buried.

Brother, this is fifth-generation warfare, I wrote in this thread how to fight back, read it, and spread it among your friends' circle. Prepare yourself how to fight; we are in active war zone.

Gen Asim Saleem Bajwa

I think Gen sb file defamtion case against these people becuase RAW hit our pakistan national interest and your creditibilty is important before the Chienese President visit

defence.pk