TaimiKhan
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Why the army will have to go into North Waziristan
- Thread starter fatman17
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bc040400065
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and should i clearify who created these monsters? and why., do i have to remined everyone here what this establishment was doing in the 80's just because their masters in US paid them Aid at that time as well??? this establishment has a history of selling its own countrymen for few dollars.
Irfan Baloch
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maybe a refresher course is needed regarding the reasons why Pakistan army is fighting taliban
Pakistani & Afghan Taliban
The brutality and ruthlessness and disregard for human life are one of the many qualities that Taliban on either side of Pak-Afghan border share. There is no difference in Pakistani or Afghan Taliban, both have vile & hateful belief system which is not only antisocial and inhumane but also confrontational, condescending & threatening to anyone happening to be on the wrong side of Taliban.
In a Taliban world, no other human being deserves a peaceful & dignified life if he or she is not a Muslim (and even being Muslim is not enough if he/ she) doesnt follow the Taliban version of Islam.
Under Taliban rule
There is no room for dissent (punishment is death)
There is no room for a non-Muslim & Shia/ hazara (punishment id torturous death)
There is no room for Shrines (desecration & destruction)
There is no room for coexistence/ respect of any other religion. (sacrilege/destruction of historical sites)
There is no room for education, except terrorist training fuelled with Salafi/ Deobani faith.
Order of business
Beheading & Dismembering captives is a religious ritual
Denying access to health & medicine to women & children (hospitals/ schools)
Banning basic hygiene and cleanliness (if someone dies, accept it as a will of God)
Rules of engagement
Nothing is off limits, mosques and shrines
Schools, colleges & universities
Hospitals and dispensaries
Shops, hotels and restaurants, all are legitimate targets
No concept of taking prisoners or sparing their lives. Video tapped or public executions are a way of religious expression.
The driving force
Hate and violence is their life blood. The consequence of this dislike is death
Fear, intimidation, intolerance is their way of life.
wana read from? click below
Examples
Pakistani & Afghan Taliban
The brutality and ruthlessness and disregard for human life are one of the many qualities that Taliban on either side of Pak-Afghan border share. There is no difference in Pakistani or Afghan Taliban, both have vile & hateful belief system which is not only antisocial and inhumane but also confrontational, condescending & threatening to anyone happening to be on the wrong side of Taliban.
In a Taliban world, no other human being deserves a peaceful & dignified life if he or she is not a Muslim (and even being Muslim is not enough if he/ she) doesnt follow the Taliban version of Islam.
Under Taliban rule
There is no room for dissent (punishment is death)
There is no room for a non-Muslim & Shia/ hazara (punishment id torturous death)
There is no room for Shrines (desecration & destruction)
There is no room for coexistence/ respect of any other religion. (sacrilege/destruction of historical sites)
There is no room for education, except terrorist training fuelled with Salafi/ Deobani faith.
Order of business
Beheading & Dismembering captives is a religious ritual
Denying access to health & medicine to women & children (hospitals/ schools)
Banning basic hygiene and cleanliness (if someone dies, accept it as a will of God)
Rules of engagement
Nothing is off limits, mosques and shrines
Schools, colleges & universities
Hospitals and dispensaries
Shops, hotels and restaurants, all are legitimate targets
No concept of taking prisoners or sparing their lives. Video tapped or public executions are a way of religious expression.
The driving force
Hate and violence is their life blood. The consequence of this dislike is death
Fear, intimidation, intolerance is their way of life.
wana read from? click below
Examples
Bhairava
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Errr... I think the Pak Army is fighting the Taliban because the US told them to do so in the name of WoT after 9/11.
fatman17
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Opinion Operation inevitable
Zafar Hilaly
Wednesday, July 20, 2011
If the army is agonising over whether to undertake a military operation in North Waziristan it must know that it has no choice. An operation is inevitable because North Waziristan is the country’s black hole that has been growing bigger and more threatening with each passing month.
Initially many sympathised with the army’s dilemma. Why indeed go after the Haqqani group of the Afghan Taliban presently sheltering in North Waziristan, when we have our hands full with the TTP and other extremist groups. Why create a situation that could unite the Afghan Taliban with the TTP et al against the army. Besides, the leverage we have with the Afghan Taliban would be lost if we were to war with them. And it hardly helps to be at daggers drawn with those whom we will eventually have to live with as neighbours.
There were other weighty considerations as well. The army continues to be over stretched with as many as 150,000 troops deployed on the western border. Nor would it appear sensible to invite retribution from the Afghan Taliban just to give the Americans an easier time in Afghanistan.
That the CIA selectively passed up opportunities to take out Hakimullah Mehsud despite the precise co-ordinates on his location reinforced this view. Recent attacks on army posts by the TTP from bases in Kunar and Nuristan, which Petraeus slyly described as ‘North Waziristan in reverse,’ is considered simply too neat and contrived a phenomenon to be purely coincidental and further fortifies objections to an operation in North Waziristan.
But, in retrospect, there are countervailing considerations which we can only ignore at our peril. North Waziristan is today the bolt hole, indeed, the headquarters of the TTP, assorted banned lashkars and jaishes, sometimes known as the Punjabi Taliban. And just about every band of foreign and local criminals, murderers, bank robbers, and kidnappers who are on the run are holed up there. It is where these scrofulous rogues retreat to plan their next foray while staying in hotels and homes in Mir Ali and Miran Shah which are locally dubbed as the rest and recreation centres of the TTP. And it is North Waziristan from where the cancer of criminality and terrorism emanates and is now spreading into the large ‘settled’ areas of Khyber-Paktunkhwa and our major cities.
In such dire circumstances, notwithstanding the blowback in terms of more violence that will certainly occur in mainland Pakistan, the army must nevertheless act because by staying our hand we are willy-nilly allowing the cancer to overwhelm the country.
This latter view, it seems, has finally prevailed. Even if surreptitiously and incrementally, the army has begun operations in Kurram and Momand to seal off the bolt holes when it eventually advances into North Waziristan and similar operations are likely in the near future.
What perhaps bothers the army leadership is that an operation in North Waziristan might suggest that it has somehow bowed to American pressure, capitulated to US threats and finally acquiesced in the face of incessant American badgering. And this is not an entirely untenable view. The US has indeed sought to force our hand by capriciously withholding promised military reimbursements. And although this knee jerk reaction by Congress went down predictably well in India, it has proved hugely counterproductive for the US here, draining whatever little support remained.
To be fair, the army has acted firmly to dispel any impression of irresolution in the face of US threats. It has sent out the unmistakable signal that we will act in accordance with our national interests, come what may. Suggestions by the Americans as to where and when the army should operate stand rejected. To emphasise the point and no doubt pander to public opinion, the withheld US military reimbursements have been dismissed as being of little consequence.
Keeping public opinion in mind is important but not to the extent of skewing priorities on complex strategic issues. It should matter on issues such as fixing our derelict public transport system. But on matters of military necessities pandering to public opinion can create confusion. It would be better therefore for the army to share with the public its long-term strategy rather than tailoring its military plans to shore up its popularity by repeatedly postponing operations or limiting their ambit to suit public whims.
The army should also be less obsessed with secrecy. It is absurd to assume that the enemy has no contingency plan for an army operation in North Waziristan which has been so long in the offing. Why then keep our strategy (though not operational plans) under wraps. Instead of undertaking the operation quietly and gingerly, it would be better to be frank about the North Waziristan issue and let the public know how important it is for rolling back extremism which has brought this country to such a sorry pass. The public must be told that we will be at a dead end unless we are able to cripple the TTP et al; and that the TTP cannot be crippled if it is able to operate unmolested out of North Waziristan.
The one lesson to emerge out of the Swat operation was surely that a stitch in time saves nine and it always better to act quickly to rout the enemy rather than wait until he is properly entrenched. Indeed, the people of Swat are still puzzled why it took the army so long to liberate them from the Taliban’s clutches.
Another pretext sometimes proffered for being tight-lipped about plans is that it is for the elected government, not the army, to take the lead. Alas, it is a lame excuse. Since its very inception the government has demonstrated neither the ability nor the inclination to call the shots, having handed over the direction of the war to the army and preferring to watch the action from a distance – as is evident from the president’s travel itinerary. Mr Zardari is far too immersed in doing deals to prolong his stay in office. In any case, war has always been the preserve of the military and the military must show decisiveness.
Nor need Kayani worry about the public. Public antipathy towards the terrorists, especially the TTP, has never been greater. Most politicians, except the most incorrigible, will fall in line when we cripple the TTP and others in North Waziristan just as the people heaved a sigh of relief after the Swat operation. Even the US may warm up and we would be in a much stronger position to demand and seek a lot more from them about stemming cross-border raids by the TTP using sanctuaries etc on the Afghan side.
As for the unspoken fear that our politically aware jawans will not be sufficiently motivated unless public support is manifest, the fact is that they are already gung ho and eager to take on the extremists having had a lot of their brothers in arms slaughtered by these barbarians.
Of course that is not to suggest that Gen Kayani should, a la Musharraf, become impetuous or adventurist. But that’s unlikely given his propensity to scrutinise and fine tune plans almost endlessly. Even if the Swat operation was late by as much as a year it did have the advantage of being meticulously planned and of course heroically executed. There is no reason to doubt that the operation in North Waziristan will be any different. Gen Kayani has had long enough to build up the force level to the required strength and to have the required weaponry in place.
The issue has been hanging darkly over us for too long. Any strategy to stem terrorism and armed violence in the country will fail unless this black hole is neutralised. The menace emanating from it will not go away on its own. Nor will any deal do the trick, as some fondly believe. It is time we acted decisively in our own national interest for both internal and external reasons.
The writer is a former ambassador. Email: charles123it@hotmail.com
Zafar Hilaly
Wednesday, July 20, 2011
If the army is agonising over whether to undertake a military operation in North Waziristan it must know that it has no choice. An operation is inevitable because North Waziristan is the country’s black hole that has been growing bigger and more threatening with each passing month.
Initially many sympathised with the army’s dilemma. Why indeed go after the Haqqani group of the Afghan Taliban presently sheltering in North Waziristan, when we have our hands full with the TTP and other extremist groups. Why create a situation that could unite the Afghan Taliban with the TTP et al against the army. Besides, the leverage we have with the Afghan Taliban would be lost if we were to war with them. And it hardly helps to be at daggers drawn with those whom we will eventually have to live with as neighbours.
There were other weighty considerations as well. The army continues to be over stretched with as many as 150,000 troops deployed on the western border. Nor would it appear sensible to invite retribution from the Afghan Taliban just to give the Americans an easier time in Afghanistan.
That the CIA selectively passed up opportunities to take out Hakimullah Mehsud despite the precise co-ordinates on his location reinforced this view. Recent attacks on army posts by the TTP from bases in Kunar and Nuristan, which Petraeus slyly described as ‘North Waziristan in reverse,’ is considered simply too neat and contrived a phenomenon to be purely coincidental and further fortifies objections to an operation in North Waziristan.
But, in retrospect, there are countervailing considerations which we can only ignore at our peril. North Waziristan is today the bolt hole, indeed, the headquarters of the TTP, assorted banned lashkars and jaishes, sometimes known as the Punjabi Taliban. And just about every band of foreign and local criminals, murderers, bank robbers, and kidnappers who are on the run are holed up there. It is where these scrofulous rogues retreat to plan their next foray while staying in hotels and homes in Mir Ali and Miran Shah which are locally dubbed as the rest and recreation centres of the TTP. And it is North Waziristan from where the cancer of criminality and terrorism emanates and is now spreading into the large ‘settled’ areas of Khyber-Paktunkhwa and our major cities.
In such dire circumstances, notwithstanding the blowback in terms of more violence that will certainly occur in mainland Pakistan, the army must nevertheless act because by staying our hand we are willy-nilly allowing the cancer to overwhelm the country.
This latter view, it seems, has finally prevailed. Even if surreptitiously and incrementally, the army has begun operations in Kurram and Momand to seal off the bolt holes when it eventually advances into North Waziristan and similar operations are likely in the near future.
What perhaps bothers the army leadership is that an operation in North Waziristan might suggest that it has somehow bowed to American pressure, capitulated to US threats and finally acquiesced in the face of incessant American badgering. And this is not an entirely untenable view. The US has indeed sought to force our hand by capriciously withholding promised military reimbursements. And although this knee jerk reaction by Congress went down predictably well in India, it has proved hugely counterproductive for the US here, draining whatever little support remained.
To be fair, the army has acted firmly to dispel any impression of irresolution in the face of US threats. It has sent out the unmistakable signal that we will act in accordance with our national interests, come what may. Suggestions by the Americans as to where and when the army should operate stand rejected. To emphasise the point and no doubt pander to public opinion, the withheld US military reimbursements have been dismissed as being of little consequence.
Keeping public opinion in mind is important but not to the extent of skewing priorities on complex strategic issues. It should matter on issues such as fixing our derelict public transport system. But on matters of military necessities pandering to public opinion can create confusion. It would be better therefore for the army to share with the public its long-term strategy rather than tailoring its military plans to shore up its popularity by repeatedly postponing operations or limiting their ambit to suit public whims.
The army should also be less obsessed with secrecy. It is absurd to assume that the enemy has no contingency plan for an army operation in North Waziristan which has been so long in the offing. Why then keep our strategy (though not operational plans) under wraps. Instead of undertaking the operation quietly and gingerly, it would be better to be frank about the North Waziristan issue and let the public know how important it is for rolling back extremism which has brought this country to such a sorry pass. The public must be told that we will be at a dead end unless we are able to cripple the TTP et al; and that the TTP cannot be crippled if it is able to operate unmolested out of North Waziristan.
The one lesson to emerge out of the Swat operation was surely that a stitch in time saves nine and it always better to act quickly to rout the enemy rather than wait until he is properly entrenched. Indeed, the people of Swat are still puzzled why it took the army so long to liberate them from the Taliban’s clutches.
Another pretext sometimes proffered for being tight-lipped about plans is that it is for the elected government, not the army, to take the lead. Alas, it is a lame excuse. Since its very inception the government has demonstrated neither the ability nor the inclination to call the shots, having handed over the direction of the war to the army and preferring to watch the action from a distance – as is evident from the president’s travel itinerary. Mr Zardari is far too immersed in doing deals to prolong his stay in office. In any case, war has always been the preserve of the military and the military must show decisiveness.
Nor need Kayani worry about the public. Public antipathy towards the terrorists, especially the TTP, has never been greater. Most politicians, except the most incorrigible, will fall in line when we cripple the TTP and others in North Waziristan just as the people heaved a sigh of relief after the Swat operation. Even the US may warm up and we would be in a much stronger position to demand and seek a lot more from them about stemming cross-border raids by the TTP using sanctuaries etc on the Afghan side.
As for the unspoken fear that our politically aware jawans will not be sufficiently motivated unless public support is manifest, the fact is that they are already gung ho and eager to take on the extremists having had a lot of their brothers in arms slaughtered by these barbarians.
Of course that is not to suggest that Gen Kayani should, a la Musharraf, become impetuous or adventurist. But that’s unlikely given his propensity to scrutinise and fine tune plans almost endlessly. Even if the Swat operation was late by as much as a year it did have the advantage of being meticulously planned and of course heroically executed. There is no reason to doubt that the operation in North Waziristan will be any different. Gen Kayani has had long enough to build up the force level to the required strength and to have the required weaponry in place.
The issue has been hanging darkly over us for too long. Any strategy to stem terrorism and armed violence in the country will fail unless this black hole is neutralised. The menace emanating from it will not go away on its own. Nor will any deal do the trick, as some fondly believe. It is time we acted decisively in our own national interest for both internal and external reasons.
The writer is a former ambassador. Email: charles123it@hotmail.com
darkinsky
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if you can only explain the logic of not stopping the drone attacks and letting innocents killed, i will consider you the wisest guy in the pakistan army!! and the logic of not going to NW before and as army said, it didnt serve its interest, why go now aft so much delay??
thank you
OrionHunter
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But then the 'Establishment' has failed to ensure a better future for the children of Pakistan. Why shift the responsibility to your children? Hang the guys who have made Pakistan what it is today.
The present generation - the powers that be - need to take the call to make Pakistan a better place for the sake of future generations. And the turnaround has to start NOW! Not wait for your children to do it. It perhaps would be too late by then!
OrionHunter
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Yes! As you mentioned, all Talibanis are vile, hideous and indulge in brutality and ruthlessness with an utter disregard for human life. You're absolutely correct here. But where you have faltered in your analysis is that you've clubbed both Taliban together. The incontrovertible fact is that there are two factions - one fighting the PA and the Pakistani Establishment which is the TTP, and the other is the Taliban controlled by Haqqani/Mullah Omar.
The Quetta Shura under them is directing the insurgency in Afghanistan, according to General Stanley A. McChrystal. In a report to President Obama in 2009, he stated that it posed the greatest threat to his troops. He said, "Afghanistan's insurgency is clearly supported from Pakistan".. As I mentioned earlier, the reason for the PA/ISI to back the Haqqani Taliban is to install a 'friendly' and pliable government at the helm of affairs in Afghanistan after the Americans/ISAF withdraw. This is a fact that cannot be brushed under the carpet.
And that is why the Americans are pissed off. On the one hand they are pumping in billions of dollars into Pakistan for the so called WOT and on the other hand they claim that Pakistan is supporting the very Taliban they are meant to fight against with these American dollars. Pakistan's argument that they are fighting the WOT and that they themselves are a victim is partially correct. The PA is only fighting the TTP to safeguard the country's national interests but NOT the Haqqini/Omar Taliban that they are supporting.
"Running with the hare while hunting with the hounds", as the Americans claim! Until and unless the Pakistani Establishment treats ALL militant groups (Including the Taliban(Haqqani), LeT, JeM, etc) as one, and goes after them hammer and tongs, the situation will only get worse as all these militant groups support each other in various ways.
omar1984,
Either you have no idea about history of the region and jihadis or you are deliberately acting dumb. Correct your knowledge, before others have to do it for you. Go pay some more taxes to the US war machine and act like a hypocrite.
Either you have no idea about history of the region and jihadis or you are deliberately acting dumb. Correct your knowledge, before others have to do it for you. Go pay some more taxes to the US war machine and act like a hypocrite.
Jihad
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What's your solution wiseguy.
Shake hands and give the insurgents a piece of land, their own rules and governance and leave them be?
Let them get away with their inhuman acts?
What is it that you propose? Since apparently, the deaths of innocent Pakistani soldiers, Pakistani common people, Pakistani women and children, clearly do not matter that much to you.
If it did matter, you wouldn't have the guts to ridicule or point a finger at the Army.
They're doing a damn fine job and the soldiers out there on the ground are giving their lives to ENSURE a better future for our children.
But yet, you are not satisfied.
What is it that you propose? Because I get a strong feeling that you're quietly a fan of either the TTP, or the Haqqani/Taliban network and the way they operate in and out of the country.
And anyone, even CLOSE to such a mindset, is as immoral and disgusting as the talibans acts.
nescafe
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we often forget a few things,
1. if you read saleem shahzad book , then you will know that "haqqanis" are not more then a myth. the NWA is influenced by alqaeda and TTP. the haqqani status quo is limited to media only. on ground facts are that what so ever left haqqanis, gulbahadar forces , alqaeda , LJ and TTP are on body, other wise they have never given refuge to TTP leaders after SWA assault in 2009.
2. the WoT cannot come to an end in pakistan unless there the kurram operation is extended to NWA. the kurram operation is launched so that NWA can be assaulted because the army feared that if they attack NWA first, the militants might make a supply change through kurram into afghanistan and flee or provide more resistance. the other operation which will be done next year will be blaochistan and near quetta.
3. pak army is no more stretched. it has better training and strategies now. i think , once they decide to go fro NWA, they will do it in a cleaner fashion this time and not like the human life cost ineffective SWA in 2009.
Irfan Baloch
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hence I "clubbed" them together as you have put it.
they share the ideology, their area of operation might be different but their aim is the same. they exchange and share resources they give support and give shelter to each other when the things get too hot for either one of them to handle. (the Afghan Taliban get shelter and support from the TTP here and the Fazlullah and his butchers enjoy the hospitality of the Afghan Taliban)
Hence the army will eventually have to go in every part of tribal area that has such elements with or without foreign help.
I beg to differ with your analysis about installing a Pakistan friendly regime in Afghanistan by supporting Afghan Taliban (Haqqanis). It is not a Pakistani policy to support a group which is not only supporting and sheltering TTP but also involved in cross border attacks on Pakistani check posts and villages. And by the way Pakistan never did it alone, it was Saudis, Americans and Pakistan who originally supported the Taliban (while both Americans and Saudis washed their hands and thank their luck for the short term memory of the people) but Pakistan is left for the sloe blame due to the neighbourhood.
This might refresh your memory about Pakistan also fighting the Afghan Taliban. please dont take it the wrong way, I know when you are bombarded with selective news and suffer with Prejudices, it is easy to ignore the bleeding obious sometimes.
thanks for your understanding.
bc040400065
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What's your solution wiseguy.
Shake hands and give the insurgents a piece of land, their own rules and governance and leave them be?
Let them get away with their inhuman acts?
What is it that you propose? Since apparently, the deaths of innocent Pakistani soldiers, Pakistani common people, Pakistani women and children, clearly do not matter that much to you.
If it did matter, you wouldn't have the guts to ridicule or point a finger at the Army.
They're doing a damn fine job and the soldiers out there on the ground are giving their lives to ENSURE a better future for our children.
But yet, you are not satisfied.
What is it that you propose? Because I get a strong feeling that you're quietly a fan of either the TTP, or the Haqqani/Taliban network and the way they operate in and out of the country.
And anyone, even CLOSE to such a mindset, is as immoral and disgusting as the talibans acts.
What about the mind set of those who firstly created these talibans? was there any need for us to interfere in afghaistan when soviets entered kabul? Was there any need to openly confront soviets in afghanistan and that too with American so called Aid? What kind of morality was in the 80's and now on part of our millitary, fighting a war to get few millions.?
Im storngly against these religious facists but for killing few hundred talibans i m not willing to sacrifise thousands of Pakistanis, just because it serves US interests or just because US will pay us few million dollars.
Get out of this US war and these taliban will have no moral ground to fight against us. common pakistanis will be ready to die for their country but sorry they are not willing to sacrifise their life, home and family just because our top brass wants american Aid.
Our leadership needs to show to the common pakistani that they are more important to them, they need to show to the world that they care for a single pakistani's life more than anything else.
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