Why the army will have to go into North Waziristan
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Irfan Baloch
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before I respond to your post, I will like to say that I respect your point of view and appreciate that you expressed yourself without rhetoric, although the subject is very serious and has impacted the lives of Pakistanis very deeply. But I must also say that I disagree with you. Let me explain why
back in the 70s to 80s when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, we didn’t have the luxury of choice. The Soviets never kept their plans secret and that was to reach the warm waters that they were denied from elsewhere and that was it was part of their psychological war on Pakistan.
There used to be a saying during the time of USSR, that whenever Red army occupies a place, it becomes a part of USSR for good and it’s a reality. Their visual propaganda used to contain endless columns of T-72s and the emotionally charged macho songs had the thumping of the marching soldier boots as a drum beat.
What became of central Asian states earlier was known to Pakistani state, and in late 70s what was becoming of Afghanistan was a living nightmare. Clearly, the Pakistanis were intimidated & worried and rightly so. Although on paper it was the communist Afghan regime that requested the help of the Soviet empire to help quell the uprising but in reality Soviets had already “invited themselves” since they instigated the chain of events that gave them excuse to intervene and effectively occupy Afghanistan.
Please note, Pakistani state had no role in displacement of millions of Afghans that were forced to move into Pakistan.
Pakistan had no say or no role in the cold & systematic destruction of mosques and raising of villages by the red army & its communist lackeys. They say that a picture speaks a thousand words but there was no one left alive to take a picture when red army’s war machine ravaged an Afghan settlement.
Back in the 80s, I personally visited a Pakistani check post in Turkham and the officer briefing there told us about a massacre of Afghans by the soviets near the border. Stench of the dead bodies spread for miles and reached them too and they actually witnessed how the Soviet war machine mangled & dismembered the Afghans who were either trying to escape into Pakistan or staged a last stand. This was one of the messages to Pakistanis that they were next!!!
Millions of Afghans were already seeking refuge in Pakistan well before we started to get in active conflict with the Soviets. Fear, doubts and unrest were being cast through literature and airwaves among the population, the toy bombs were being spread by Khad/ KGB agents among the refuge camps and Pakistani settled cities were already blowing up children well before ISI and CIA ever held their first meeting with Afghan Mujahideen. The high profile assassinations were taking place regularly and hammer group was already striking fear among the Pakistani population (men & women, old & young, infants & toddlers on the hit list) & it was only the prelude to the Soviet invasion and this was all unprovoked (like I said, well before Afghan resistance got Pakistani support). So the choice was to die fighting now or do nothing & die later. As the world knows we chose the former to conserve our way of life and stand up to a super power with defiance and say out loud that we wont go down without a fight or in silence.
Regarding the first part of the question my earlier explanation should suffice but I will say it to clear any ambiguity or doubt, we DIDN’T decide to openly go into conflict with the Soviets, they did it FOR us when they forced millions of Afghan to seek refuge in Pakistan.
Now to your question about morality The reasons are many, both religious and moral
I will start with religious (quoting Islam as it being the predominant faith followed by Pak, Afghan population)
During the time of Prophet Muhammad PBUH, one of the reasons to go into the last fight with the Quraish (Meccans) was that they broke the truce of Hadabbiya when one of their allies Banu Bakr (with active support of Quraish) had attacked and killed the members of a tribe Banu Khuzra’a who were allies of the Muslims. It’s more or less the same reason (sans religion) Allies went to war with the Axis when Poland was invaded by the Germans. Allies also knew from experience that they were next.
The other is moral reason as espoused by UN charter and human rights and the convention about the intervention.
Humanitarian intervention is defined as “the threat or use of armed force without the agreement of the target state to address a humanitarian disaster, in particular caused by grave and large-scale violations of fundamental human rights”
A fascist empire had invaded a weak country and was mercilessly spilling the blood of its population, destroying everything in its path and displacing millions, the people it shares custom, ties, religion and language and most importantly it was a matter of survival as well as I explained earlier, Pakistan was next.
The jibe about the American “aid” is misplaced and unfair. Americans only came in too late and were very reluctant. They wanted to keep a low profile and in the begining didn’t even provide any weapons to avoid any hostilities with the Soviets, hence the result was no matter how much brave and fearless Afghan mujahideen were, but their world war era weapons were no match for the Soviet war machine and they were mowed down very easily. It was their persistence and resolve that joined Saudis, Americans and Pakistan to help in this war effort. Kindly remember that it was not just the American “Aid” as you put it but there was a big element of our Arab Muslim brother Saudi Arabia too both in terms of money and Salafi ideology (that is biting us now).
Every party had its own interests and provided what was needed for the war effort. Just because Saudis & Americans were better placed in providing funds & weapons doesn’t make Pakistan a lesser member of the party, it provided what Americans and Saudis couldn’t which was its own personnel & intelligence due to its proximity with the conflict zone. It was the combined support not “aid” (which has a lot more political and derogatory connotation to it and should be left for other forums and sections as there are plenty of them out there). But if people still insist on the word “aid” for American and Saudi support then Pakistan also “aided” both (Saudis & Americans) with facilities, men, intelligence, local knowledge and training.
I don’t think there is any need to go into detail on how that war was organized and run as there are countless articles and books about that
I appreciate your first part of the sentence. Rejecting fanaticism and condemning cruelty under the religious banner is dignified way of expressing yourself. That’s what differentiates a decent human being from a bigot or a hypocrite.
I also appreciate and support your sentiment about endangering and sacrificing the Pakistani lives for the sole sake of American dollars. Trust me on this, even our respected Indian & American members here (yes they are many) would hate to see the loss of life for the sake of American aid which is the right of the American taxpayer.
If you allow me, I will like to explain something from the word “but for killing…” and onwards, Pakistan’s fight with Taliban is not because of American aid or let me rephrase it....
Taliban have not declared war on Pakistani state just because Pakistan sided with Americans. TTP & Lal Masjid declared war on Pakistan because they see Pakistan state as un-Islamic & they want to implement their our version of Islamic law (read graveyard law) on Pakistan. It doesn’t matter to Taliban, whether we stay idle or active, whether we condemn or praise Americans, just because we are not “THEM” (Taliban) we are automatically wrong. Its worth revisiting the story of Swat. The events in Swat would have happened anyway whether or not we participated and supported war on terror.
in real world, any nation that wants to be a part of a progressive and civilised world tries to find friends and allies and avoid confrontation where possible. In the case of the events after 9/11 and American war on terror in Afghanistan, both countries shared the same objective of quelling the roots of terrorism. What Pakistan did was in line with the UNSC resolution1267
Resolution 1267 (1999), Adopted Unanimously, Sets Out Measures To be Imposed if Demand Not Met by 14 November
Acting under Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter, the Security Council this afternoon demanded that the Afghan faction, known as the Taliban, turn over Usama bin Laden to appropriate authorities in a country where he would be brought to justice. In that context, it decided that on 14 November all States shall freeze funds and prohibit the take-off and landing of Taliban-owned aircraft unless or until the Taliban complies with that demand.
Mr. bin Laden and his associates were indicted by the United States for, among other things, his role in the 7 August 1998 bombings of United States embassies in Kenya and the United Republic of Tanzania, and for conspiring to kill United States nationals. The Council's action noted this, as well as the United States’ request to the Taliban to surrender Mr. Bin Laden and his associates for trial.
Now for the sake of chest thumping and rhetoric it is really appealing that we should have rejected American aid and stayed indifferent but that wouldn’t have stopped the events in Swat and the fitnah of Ghazi brothers of Red Mosque.
So the result would have been a “less than friendly” Indian army formations lined up along the eastern borders and a really pi*sed-off super power on the western side whose pride had been bruised by some “cave dwelling” terrorist leadership. Does anyone think that had Pakistan not joined the war on terror, would it have stopped KSM, Mullah Baradar and Osama Bin laden to escape Afghanistan and hide in Pakistan? Do you think Americans would have stopped at attacking Osama in Abbotabad only and not paid a visit to Rawalpindi and Islamabad too (all hypothesis and anyone’s guess, they might do it now, they might not have done it them but who knows?) but still, what was the likelihood of American reaction after finding Bin Laden deep inside a (not so cooperating) Pakistan? Again, we were not at liberty of making choices here as the 9/11 hijackers didn’t share their notes with ISI or GHQ before blowing up twin towers and Mr Bush didn’t request permission of Gen Pervaiz before starting the Afghan invasion.
As far as the American aid and the million dollars are concerned there are two groups that choose to criticise it.
One is the Pakistanis (unaffiliated + PTI, Nawaz league & religious organisations)
To this group I will like to remind them that Pakistan’s military operation will continue with or without the American aid, as has been seen recently. Pakistan army plans and operates according to its own planning and decision making no matter what the US state department says, hence it will listen to what Gen Petraeus etc have to say but it will only expand its operations in tribal areas after consolidating its positions and will exhaust all other alternatives before resorting to deadly force. Hence it negotiated deals with the trial elders, encouraged tribal armies to police themselves and signed peace deals much to the annoyance of the international media, hardly something that a “rented” or a “mercenary” army can ever do.
But having said that, it acted with full force at its disposal when peace was broken and tribes allowed anti-state element activities to continue under their watch. If Americans saw this as of mutual interest and help in their own war effort in Afghanistan then why the fuss? Their aid only helped Pakistan army in policing its own backyard.
Being a responsible country this is least Pakistan do is not to allow its territory to be used by terrorists to train, plan and execute attacks on other countries. Had Pakistan remained indifferent and stayed out of the tribal areas what would have stopped the Taliban from escaping into Pakistan and also what would have stopped Americans perusing them from entering into Pakistan? There would have been American check posts in Waziristan ensuring that Taliban don’t use it to launch attacks against the NATO and the Afghan government, what about sovereignty then?
So,..., Pakistani state and its forces that are bound to defend it are not fighting this war for the sake of American aid and their approval but Pakistan army is doing it for Pakistan.
Others are non Pakistanis including some American & Indian analysts. Bloggers & time & space wasters.
To this group I suggest to get over it, or raise it with the US state department.
Sorry, this statement is SO wrong at every level that I cant disagree more. TTP is not fighting a moral war. They are not bound by morals which you or I might understand.
Their morals involve beheading prisoners (without discrimination). Molesting women through forced Nikkah youtube;UModlQkVWIM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UModlQkVWIM"
Blowing up Shrines, desecrating dead bodies, executing women, children, teachers, medics and ordinary people like you and me no matter how much we criticise Americans.
Their morals involve hiding behind Burkahs and blowing up people through deceit. Their morals involve making videos of beheading and distributing them to instil fear.
Their morals involve mutilating bodies of the soldiers and not even giving them the dignity of a burial.
What morals are you talking about? For ten years they are executing ordinary Pakistanis and there are still people naïve enough to think that these guys will suddenly blush with embarrassment and lay down their arms when Imran Khan makes his next public speech? What TTP is today is what its former parts called themselves as Sipah Sahabah & Lasker Jhangvi that have been spilling the blood of your not so fortunate Shia fellow citizens for decades, they just acquired this taste of every Muslim and you think they will stop killing us as a good will gesture when Americans depart or when Pakistan army moves back to barracks? May God help us if we still choose to live in denial and delusion.
As for the choosing to sacrifice or not is concerned well this choice is taken away from ordinary citizen. This enemy uses deceit and cover to conceal itself and avoids full frontal confrontation and instead prefers soft target. So it doesn’t matter to a next suicide bomber on his way to explode him/herself if the people at target location will be willing or unwilling to loose life and/ or limbs.
So, sir they are not hindered by moral codes of us mere mortal ordinary human beings. They don’t believe that they are doing Gods work, They KNOW they are and they KNOW they will go to heaven for that. Their interpretation of Gods work includes what they have been doing in Swat, tribal areas and rest of Pakistan.
They say ignorance is a bliss, but in this case it’s a disaster that some of us still think that Taliban will lay down weapons due to the weight of moral obligation.
If you mean military leadership then look at the sacrifices made by its personnel, its dead and wounded not only include the lowest tier foot soldiers but also generals. It is one the forefront of this fight and has come under repeated attacks from the TTP, laskher Ghangvi & Sipah Sahabah etc. Not sure what else does any Pakistani needs that is doubting its sincerity and resolve regarding safeguarding Pakistan and its people.
If you mean civilian/ political leadership
For that I cant really help or advise anyone other than saying that try to vote for the right person or party who you think can deliver that promise. If you yet again vote the same mix of Nawaz league/ JI and PPP then you only got yourself to blame.
regards
back in the 70s to 80s when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, we didn’t have the luxury of choice. The Soviets never kept their plans secret and that was to reach the warm waters that they were denied from elsewhere and that was it was part of their psychological war on Pakistan.
There used to be a saying during the time of USSR, that whenever Red army occupies a place, it becomes a part of USSR for good and it’s a reality. Their visual propaganda used to contain endless columns of T-72s and the emotionally charged macho songs had the thumping of the marching soldier boots as a drum beat.
What became of central Asian states earlier was known to Pakistani state, and in late 70s what was becoming of Afghanistan was a living nightmare. Clearly, the Pakistanis were intimidated & worried and rightly so. Although on paper it was the communist Afghan regime that requested the help of the Soviet empire to help quell the uprising but in reality Soviets had already “invited themselves” since they instigated the chain of events that gave them excuse to intervene and effectively occupy Afghanistan.
Please note, Pakistani state had no role in displacement of millions of Afghans that were forced to move into Pakistan.
Pakistan had no say or no role in the cold & systematic destruction of mosques and raising of villages by the red army & its communist lackeys. They say that a picture speaks a thousand words but there was no one left alive to take a picture when red army’s war machine ravaged an Afghan settlement.
Back in the 80s, I personally visited a Pakistani check post in Turkham and the officer briefing there told us about a massacre of Afghans by the soviets near the border. Stench of the dead bodies spread for miles and reached them too and they actually witnessed how the Soviet war machine mangled & dismembered the Afghans who were either trying to escape into Pakistan or staged a last stand. This was one of the messages to Pakistanis that they were next!!!
Millions of Afghans were already seeking refuge in Pakistan well before we started to get in active conflict with the Soviets. Fear, doubts and unrest were being cast through literature and airwaves among the population, the toy bombs were being spread by Khad/ KGB agents among the refuge camps and Pakistani settled cities were already blowing up children well before ISI and CIA ever held their first meeting with Afghan Mujahideen. The high profile assassinations were taking place regularly and hammer group was already striking fear among the Pakistani population (men & women, old & young, infants & toddlers on the hit list) & it was only the prelude to the Soviet invasion and this was all unprovoked (like I said, well before Afghan resistance got Pakistani support). So the choice was to die fighting now or do nothing & die later. As the world knows we chose the former to conserve our way of life and stand up to a super power with defiance and say out loud that we wont go down without a fight or in silence.
Regarding the first part of the question my earlier explanation should suffice but I will say it to clear any ambiguity or doubt, we DIDN’T decide to openly go into conflict with the Soviets, they did it FOR us when they forced millions of Afghan to seek refuge in Pakistan.
Now to your question about morality The reasons are many, both religious and moral
I will start with religious (quoting Islam as it being the predominant faith followed by Pak, Afghan population)
During the time of Prophet Muhammad PBUH, one of the reasons to go into the last fight with the Quraish (Meccans) was that they broke the truce of Hadabbiya when one of their allies Banu Bakr (with active support of Quraish) had attacked and killed the members of a tribe Banu Khuzra’a who were allies of the Muslims. It’s more or less the same reason (sans religion) Allies went to war with the Axis when Poland was invaded by the Germans. Allies also knew from experience that they were next.
The other is moral reason as espoused by UN charter and human rights and the convention about the intervention.
Humanitarian intervention is defined as “the threat or use of armed force without the agreement of the target state to address a humanitarian disaster, in particular caused by grave and large-scale violations of fundamental human rights”
A fascist empire had invaded a weak country and was mercilessly spilling the blood of its population, destroying everything in its path and displacing millions, the people it shares custom, ties, religion and language and most importantly it was a matter of survival as well as I explained earlier, Pakistan was next.
The jibe about the American “aid” is misplaced and unfair. Americans only came in too late and were very reluctant. They wanted to keep a low profile and in the begining didn’t even provide any weapons to avoid any hostilities with the Soviets, hence the result was no matter how much brave and fearless Afghan mujahideen were, but their world war era weapons were no match for the Soviet war machine and they were mowed down very easily. It was their persistence and resolve that joined Saudis, Americans and Pakistan to help in this war effort. Kindly remember that it was not just the American “Aid” as you put it but there was a big element of our Arab Muslim brother Saudi Arabia too both in terms of money and Salafi ideology (that is biting us now).
Every party had its own interests and provided what was needed for the war effort. Just because Saudis & Americans were better placed in providing funds & weapons doesn’t make Pakistan a lesser member of the party, it provided what Americans and Saudis couldn’t which was its own personnel & intelligence due to its proximity with the conflict zone. It was the combined support not “aid” (which has a lot more political and derogatory connotation to it and should be left for other forums and sections as there are plenty of them out there). But if people still insist on the word “aid” for American and Saudi support then Pakistan also “aided” both (Saudis & Americans) with facilities, men, intelligence, local knowledge and training.
I don’t think there is any need to go into detail on how that war was organized and run as there are countless articles and books about that
I appreciate your first part of the sentence. Rejecting fanaticism and condemning cruelty under the religious banner is dignified way of expressing yourself. That’s what differentiates a decent human being from a bigot or a hypocrite.
I also appreciate and support your sentiment about endangering and sacrificing the Pakistani lives for the sole sake of American dollars. Trust me on this, even our respected Indian & American members here (yes they are many) would hate to see the loss of life for the sake of American aid which is the right of the American taxpayer.
If you allow me, I will like to explain something from the word “but for killing…” and onwards, Pakistan’s fight with Taliban is not because of American aid or let me rephrase it....
Taliban have not declared war on Pakistani state just because Pakistan sided with Americans. TTP & Lal Masjid declared war on Pakistan because they see Pakistan state as un-Islamic & they want to implement their our version of Islamic law (read graveyard law) on Pakistan. It doesn’t matter to Taliban, whether we stay idle or active, whether we condemn or praise Americans, just because we are not “THEM” (Taliban) we are automatically wrong. Its worth revisiting the story of Swat. The events in Swat would have happened anyway whether or not we participated and supported war on terror.
in real world, any nation that wants to be a part of a progressive and civilised world tries to find friends and allies and avoid confrontation where possible. In the case of the events after 9/11 and American war on terror in Afghanistan, both countries shared the same objective of quelling the roots of terrorism. What Pakistan did was in line with the UNSC resolution1267
Resolution 1267 (1999), Adopted Unanimously, Sets Out Measures To be Imposed if Demand Not Met by 14 November
Acting under Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter, the Security Council this afternoon demanded that the Afghan faction, known as the Taliban, turn over Usama bin Laden to appropriate authorities in a country where he would be brought to justice. In that context, it decided that on 14 November all States shall freeze funds and prohibit the take-off and landing of Taliban-owned aircraft unless or until the Taliban complies with that demand.
Mr. bin Laden and his associates were indicted by the United States for, among other things, his role in the 7 August 1998 bombings of United States embassies in Kenya and the United Republic of Tanzania, and for conspiring to kill United States nationals. The Council's action noted this, as well as the United States’ request to the Taliban to surrender Mr. Bin Laden and his associates for trial.
Now for the sake of chest thumping and rhetoric it is really appealing that we should have rejected American aid and stayed indifferent but that wouldn’t have stopped the events in Swat and the fitnah of Ghazi brothers of Red Mosque.
So the result would have been a “less than friendly” Indian army formations lined up along the eastern borders and a really pi*sed-off super power on the western side whose pride had been bruised by some “cave dwelling” terrorist leadership. Does anyone think that had Pakistan not joined the war on terror, would it have stopped KSM, Mullah Baradar and Osama Bin laden to escape Afghanistan and hide in Pakistan? Do you think Americans would have stopped at attacking Osama in Abbotabad only and not paid a visit to Rawalpindi and Islamabad too (all hypothesis and anyone’s guess, they might do it now, they might not have done it them but who knows?) but still, what was the likelihood of American reaction after finding Bin Laden deep inside a (not so cooperating) Pakistan? Again, we were not at liberty of making choices here as the 9/11 hijackers didn’t share their notes with ISI or GHQ before blowing up twin towers and Mr Bush didn’t request permission of Gen Pervaiz before starting the Afghan invasion.
As far as the American aid and the million dollars are concerned there are two groups that choose to criticise it.
One is the Pakistanis (unaffiliated + PTI, Nawaz league & religious organisations)
To this group I will like to remind them that Pakistan’s military operation will continue with or without the American aid, as has been seen recently. Pakistan army plans and operates according to its own planning and decision making no matter what the US state department says, hence it will listen to what Gen Petraeus etc have to say but it will only expand its operations in tribal areas after consolidating its positions and will exhaust all other alternatives before resorting to deadly force. Hence it negotiated deals with the trial elders, encouraged tribal armies to police themselves and signed peace deals much to the annoyance of the international media, hardly something that a “rented” or a “mercenary” army can ever do.
But having said that, it acted with full force at its disposal when peace was broken and tribes allowed anti-state element activities to continue under their watch. If Americans saw this as of mutual interest and help in their own war effort in Afghanistan then why the fuss? Their aid only helped Pakistan army in policing its own backyard.
Being a responsible country this is least Pakistan do is not to allow its territory to be used by terrorists to train, plan and execute attacks on other countries. Had Pakistan remained indifferent and stayed out of the tribal areas what would have stopped the Taliban from escaping into Pakistan and also what would have stopped Americans perusing them from entering into Pakistan? There would have been American check posts in Waziristan ensuring that Taliban don’t use it to launch attacks against the NATO and the Afghan government, what about sovereignty then?
So,..., Pakistani state and its forces that are bound to defend it are not fighting this war for the sake of American aid and their approval but Pakistan army is doing it for Pakistan.
Others are non Pakistanis including some American & Indian analysts. Bloggers & time & space wasters.
To this group I suggest to get over it, or raise it with the US state department.
Sorry, this statement is SO wrong at every level that I cant disagree more. TTP is not fighting a moral war. They are not bound by morals which you or I might understand.
Their morals involve beheading prisoners (without discrimination). Molesting women through forced Nikkah youtube;UModlQkVWIM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UModlQkVWIM"
Blowing up Shrines, desecrating dead bodies, executing women, children, teachers, medics and ordinary people like you and me no matter how much we criticise Americans.
Their morals involve hiding behind Burkahs and blowing up people through deceit. Their morals involve making videos of beheading and distributing them to instil fear.
Their morals involve mutilating bodies of the soldiers and not even giving them the dignity of a burial.
What morals are you talking about? For ten years they are executing ordinary Pakistanis and there are still people naïve enough to think that these guys will suddenly blush with embarrassment and lay down their arms when Imran Khan makes his next public speech? What TTP is today is what its former parts called themselves as Sipah Sahabah & Lasker Jhangvi that have been spilling the blood of your not so fortunate Shia fellow citizens for decades, they just acquired this taste of every Muslim and you think they will stop killing us as a good will gesture when Americans depart or when Pakistan army moves back to barracks? May God help us if we still choose to live in denial and delusion.
As for the choosing to sacrifice or not is concerned well this choice is taken away from ordinary citizen. This enemy uses deceit and cover to conceal itself and avoids full frontal confrontation and instead prefers soft target. So it doesn’t matter to a next suicide bomber on his way to explode him/herself if the people at target location will be willing or unwilling to loose life and/ or limbs.
So, sir they are not hindered by moral codes of us mere mortal ordinary human beings. They don’t believe that they are doing Gods work, They KNOW they are and they KNOW they will go to heaven for that. Their interpretation of Gods work includes what they have been doing in Swat, tribal areas and rest of Pakistan.
They say ignorance is a bliss, but in this case it’s a disaster that some of us still think that Taliban will lay down weapons due to the weight of moral obligation.
If you mean military leadership then look at the sacrifices made by its personnel, its dead and wounded not only include the lowest tier foot soldiers but also generals. It is one the forefront of this fight and has come under repeated attacks from the TTP, laskher Ghangvi & Sipah Sahabah etc. Not sure what else does any Pakistani needs that is doubting its sincerity and resolve regarding safeguarding Pakistan and its people.
If you mean civilian/ political leadership
For that I cant really help or advise anyone other than saying that try to vote for the right person or party who you think can deliver that promise. If you yet again vote the same mix of Nawaz league/ JI and PPP then you only got yourself to blame.
regards
humanfirst
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Spoken like a true representative of a spineless nation which dont even reveal which side it is on.Most probably out of the fear of losing some military aid.The one which you are thinking
TaimiKhan
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Sorry to disappoint you, but i am not a representative of the 170Mln+ people of Pakistan. And you think your nation has more balls compared to us ?? Don't think so.
Problem is, its waste of time to make Indians understand or argue with them, as you are sitting on that side of the border and we are here and you are not in our shoes, so you can't think and imagine like us and since you are not in a situation like we are, thus your brains are not capable enough to understand what we want to make you understand. No matter what we tell you, since the Indian brains are filled with hate for Pakistan & Pakistanis, you will not get the situation.
If i had said we are on this side, you would have objected and if i had said we are on that side, you would have objected, as that is the Indian mentality. So, i said what you would like to hear, think whatever you think.
Let the time come and then we will show you how much spineless we are, till then keep dreaming and thinking what you like as wastage of ones time to make Indians understand.
And yeah, its not for just military aid, there are lot of other factors involved too, but since you have an Indian brain, it would be hard for you to understand and digest.
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Irfan Baloch
Sir, Thanks for your such a detailed reply. i appreciate and respect your views.
few points.
i respect millitary personal sacrifices, and i know these talibans are jungli monsters. i want this menace to end. but how is where i think we disagree. you wrote about the soviet attrocities in afghanistan but what about US, bombings targeting one suspect ends up whole village destroyed. not to mention the drone attack in FATA, If our millitary can handle these talibans then why a foreign power is allowed to bomb our towns? now these kinds of things add salt to the wounds and common tribesmen end up supporting these taliban.
If we can end this support only then our military campaigns will have any success in the long run. daily drone attacks killing civilian are making life difficult for our military but just don't know why we are allowing it.
i will give an example of Swat operation, why it was success because local majority supported the military and thats why swat has hardly any militant activity now, peace is there .
About US aid well everyone knows that they use us and its the same now as well. So please tell them we don't need your aid, we can handle our situation better so please you keep your nose out of here. i think then if taliban don't lay their arms beleive me every pakistani will support the military to finish them at all cost. im all for fighting anyone that violates pakistan's national soveignty whether they are taliban or US.
Sir, Thanks for your such a detailed reply. i appreciate and respect your views.
few points.
i respect millitary personal sacrifices, and i know these talibans are jungli monsters. i want this menace to end. but how is where i think we disagree. you wrote about the soviet attrocities in afghanistan but what about US, bombings targeting one suspect ends up whole village destroyed. not to mention the drone attack in FATA, If our millitary can handle these talibans then why a foreign power is allowed to bomb our towns? now these kinds of things add salt to the wounds and common tribesmen end up supporting these taliban.
If we can end this support only then our military campaigns will have any success in the long run. daily drone attacks killing civilian are making life difficult for our military but just don't know why we are allowing it.
i will give an example of Swat operation, why it was success because local majority supported the military and thats why swat has hardly any militant activity now, peace is there .
About US aid well everyone knows that they use us and its the same now as well. So please tell them we don't need your aid, we can handle our situation better so please you keep your nose out of here. i think then if taliban don't lay their arms beleive me every pakistani will support the military to finish them at all cost. im all for fighting anyone that violates pakistan's national soveignty whether they are taliban or US.
Irfan Baloch
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Agreed on every single word you say. if you have been following my posts and other fellow think tanks and admin regarding American incursions, specially Drone strikes after RD release and his whole sham diplomat status, you will notice that the PDF admin, think thanks and all members who value life and can distinguish between the death of a terrorist & civilian, condemned the atrocities specially the brazen attack on the open air tribal elder gathering. Only the trolls and hypocrites with inherent hatred towards Pakistan (like that troll few posts above, don’t respond to him!) tried to enflame those threads but their short lived flame ended with them being ignored & overlooked by everyone and then trashed by the mods/ admin.
yes our military can handle these Taliban but there are limitations. Let me explain what they are.
Men & Material
In short, our military operations are conducted in accordance to available resources, men and material. The on and off American “aid” is not a reliable source to depend on and commit forces in farther areas.
Following the drum beat of Taliban and bowing down to consistent onslaught of American media analysts and lawmakers (who are not only detached from ground reality of this place but also don’t seem to care) would have resulted in abrupt ending of this whole operation due to lack of resources and over stretched forces prone to gorilla attacks.
US/ NATO military command understands that and has time and again explained that to media & the US select committee but it gets buried into the constant bravado and rhetoric of highly charged Anchors & politicians as they gets more media coverage because its in tune with the overall anti Pakistan media drive and helps with the rating.
COIN Operations
In order to fight a sustained COIN operation against an enemy which (by very definition of operation) is using deceit and deception to conceal itself and merge into the population, Pak army is carefully conducting the operations on its own dictates. Preparing, training troops, deploying them in the area, destroying training centres, killing and capturing the terrorists and finally consolidating its positions there and denying the terrorists from using that place in the future.
Things would have been completely different and we wouldn’t have been having this discussion if TTP had faced us up like Swati Taliban, then its existence would have been done and dusted and become part of history by now (which will happen Inshallallah).
So what our enemy is doing is called war of attrition which is primarily adapted by the insurgency & rebels to wear down the much stronger & resourceful state force by forcing its to deploy larger number of troops and military/ support hardware to deal with a highly mobile, deceptive enemy using gorilla hit and run tactics.
Our military is cognisant of this risk and hence has been careful in deploying its forces on the western side when it also has eastern front to worry about as well (where the Indians show no intention of easing their close border deployments, more on this later). But despite all this care, still there are costs involved and the losses of men and material to bear and a constantly hostile foreign media being spearheaded by Indians as a part of their state policy only adds more confusion to an already complex situation.
American state Department/ Murdock’s Media Empire
This is not exactly a limitation but a nuisance in conducting war on terror but since it is related to the war effort I thought it was worth mentioning.
Our other problem is the constant rant of American government and the media that are trying to pass the failure to conclude the Afghan war after ten years since the invasion on Pakistan. There are thousands of web pages and hours of videos spewing venom on Pakistan which we all have come across so no point in discussing them again but I will like to mention the slimy nature of Rupert Murdock’s media empire specially the sensational and emotive Fox News that lacks substance but is full of bigotry and racism towards Muslims & Pakistan. American state depart has to explain to its weary public why it is engaged in Afghanistan and as it happens Pakistan is an easy target to blame and Fox News etc fulfil that role. Now I mentioned the Indian military concentration along our eastern borders, that also is not helping us in freeing up our troops from that border to join in the COIN operations. Mr Obama is no doubt a very good speaker and there is no doubt in that but where he fails is when he says that “Pakistan should stop its obsession with India”.
In order to achieve that all I can say is Mr Obama, this is just a precaution due to the deployment of about 90% of Indian army along the borders with Pakistan. If you care to ask them to stop their obsession and move their troops back then Pakistan will be happy to respond in kind. Would he say that? No. Will India feel obliged? Maybe not
Why American drones?
After explaining a bit of background I come to your question why Americans are allowed to conduct drone strikes? It is because of the terrain and the sheer size of it. Look at the image above. And as I clarified above, our resources don’t allow us to be at every place of tribal badlands. The other reason is the technology which we lack, and the American reluctance to share it with us. So as the part of our cooperation agreement in WoT, it was agreed that drone strikes will take place with help of Pakistani ground intelligence.
Regardless of the public perception in Pakistan and United states, these strikes are mostly coordinated and have resulted in eliminating some well known terror figures that not only include Al Qaeda but also TTP which is a Pakistan specific in its terror operations. But it has had a lot of bad press due to its collateral damage and that too from a foreign super power that further ignites the emotions and helps in fuelling resentment and gives advantage to terrorist propaganda.
I agree with you, it not only hinders our war effort but also goes against the America’s so called “wining hearts and minds” approach. Some attacks definitely have been brazen and callous and Pakistan army / state and the public unanimously condemned them specially the one that followed after RD release.
I agree, public support is priceless and gives power to the soldiers and ups their morale when they know that their lives are not being put at risk without reason or support.
Swat operation was a classic example but also because we were able to pretty much block the bulk of the TTP forces and crush it.
Americans are not supporting Pakistan out of love or due to their excess resources, it is because both Pakistan and America view Al Qaeda and their Pakistani representatives (TTP/ laskher Jhagvi) as a threat to the national security so allies (no matter how uneasy and difficult) help each other out and that’s the only way to end it.
By the way, the bulk of any so called aid is actually reimbursements for using our facilities, ports and warehouses so they hardly count as aid (no one calls payment to an electricity bill as aid to the utility company) the remainder of those payments is taken by the state for debt financing and army only gets a much smaller piece out of it and that too has now been stopped (ref stopping $800M payments). Army has been conducting these operations mainly on its own budget and will continue to do so as the resources allow.
In order to achieve that, Pakistan army has been careful by not only bringing its regular troops up to speed with the Urban warfare and COIN operations but also revitalized the paramilitary forces like the FC and made it an effective fighting machine.
Regards,
Pakistan Paindabad
Pakistan Army Zindabad
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