Why Sindhis are genetically no where near Indians(Gujaratis)

[Sindhi(Indus)]

Population cluster maps show the genetic relationship that Sindhis have against other races within the region

PCA plots show that North and South Indians are right next to each other hovering around a majority haplogroup H and that the ONLY group of Indians that as a whole mass do not fit near Indians are northeast Indians who are near Chinese people

Now going by my common sense and most peoples, Manipuris look Mongoloid with some darker skinned, they then on PCA plots are no where near north and south Indians.

The ONLY races within the region that apart from Manipuris do not go near Indians are

Sindhis/Baloch/Pakistani Pashtun/Afghan Pashtun/Kalash/Afghan Tajik/Tajik from Tajikistan

Tajiks also have ASI in their blood at 12% at least and on your Moorjani report, they would be seen as ANI people. However Tajikistan has virtually nothing to do with India. The Tajiks would look at you confused if you say that they're related to you Indians even if your Moorjani report says ANI and ASI of them is that they're 88% ANI and 12% ASI on their blood too

@Indus Pakistan

It is for responsible Pakistanis like you to keep these neo-savants off PDF pages.



These are the findings of linguists; no Hindu came up with this.
The words 'Sindh', 'Indus', and 'Hindu' were all traced through their mutual relations by linguists. Hindus had nothing to do with it; Hindus don't even call themselves Hindus.



@Indus Pakistan

Do you see the damage caused by half-baked theories, where some random member talks about 'mentality' being from the Ganges River, and not the Indus? Even the famous racists of the 19th and 20th centuries would flinch at this nonsense.



Now we get instant invention of history. But it gets better.



Racist differences proved by blood tests! Irrefutable. There goes the ANI and the ASI; this budding genius has just blown them into little bits.



Now 'dravidians' (sic) are a race.

On another bulbul melody, 98% Indians are not apart (sic) of the Indus valley. Er, yes, it'd be difficult to fit us all in. That, by itself, geographical dispersion, is not sufficient to distinguish Indians from Indians.



@Indus Pakistan

I'm in whoops of laughter as I read this.

<straightening myself and looking seriously at my keyboard - a keyboard is no laughing matter>

Prisoner @Indus Pakistan, you are arraigned with serious charges, and the evidence is overwhelming. Co-terminous Pakistan is NOT to be revealed to people with an IQ of less than 50. For those with a middling IQ, between 50 and 75, the idea must be imparted under professional supervision.
Have you anything to say for yourself before sentence is passed?



Oh, OK, this is a mental case.

Sorry about the jibes; @Indus Pakistan, I apologise.

The findings among linguist doesn't take the workings of Al Istakri who is a Persian and wrote a whole extensive historical bases on how Sind and Hind are two different from

ALL maps show Sindh and Hind as different

Persians
Arabs
Greeks
Portuguese
Babylonians

They all had Sindh written and Hind written afterwards on their maps

I've posted the historical maps and references from the actual geographers and travellers on another thread titled why Sindh and Hind were separate from each other

The term Hindu Kush mountain

The Persian-English dictionary[30] indicates that the word 'koš' [koʃ] is derived from the verb ('koštan' کشتن‬ Persian pronunciation: [koʃˈtæn]), meaning "to kill". According to Francis Joseph Steingass, the word and suffix "-kush" means "a male; (imp. of kushtan in comp.) a killer, who kills, slays, murders, oppresses as azhdaha-kush".[31] A Practical Dictionary of the Persian Language gives the meaning of the word kush as "hotbed".[32] According to one interpretation, the name Hindu Kush means "kills the Hindu" or "Hindu killer" and is a reminder of the days when slaves from the Indian subcontinent died in the harsh weather typical of the Afghan mountains while being taken to Central Asia.[25][33][34] The World Book Encyclopedia states that the word kush means death, and was probably given to the mountains because of their dangerous passes.[35]

In his travel memoirs about India, the 14th century Moroccan traveller Muhammad Ibn Battuta mentioned crossing into India via the mountain passes of the Hindu Kush. In his Rihla, he mentions these mountains and the history of the range in slave trading.[36][14]Alexander von Humboldt stated that it can be learned from his work that the name only referred to a single mountain pass upon which many Indian slaves died of the cold weather.[37] Battuta wrote,

After this I proceeded to the city of Barwan, in the road to which is a high mountain, covered with snow and exceedingly cold; they call it the Hindu Kush, that is Hindu-slayer, because most of the slaves brought thither from India die on account of the intenseness of the cold.

— Ibn Batutta, Chapter XIII, Rihla – Khorasan

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sindhis have mostly Arab origin. That's why a Sindhi wife is such a pain

Darn it, got it now!

@Sindhu(Indus)

Are you a Sindhi wife?

Magnificent!

Pakistani cricket produces fast bowlers like an assembly line.

PDF produces this sort like an assembly line.

@Indus Pakistan

I know I'm addressing far too many tags to you, but this situation is too delicious to resist.

Do you realise that you are the Mike Brearley to these donkey-droppers? (note to Moderators: a donkey-drop is a kind of delivery in cricket. It is not intended, at this point, to compare any member to a donkey.)

 

[Sindhi(Indus)]

Hindu Kush mountain was because the Indians of the hot plains of India during M

Darn it, got it now!

@Sindhu(Indus)

Are you a Sindhi wife?

Magnificent!

Pakistani cricket produces fast bowlers like an assembly line.

PDF produces this sort like an assembly line.

@Indus Pakistan

I know I'm addressing far too many tags to you, but this situation is too delicious to resist.

Do you realise that you are the Mike Brearley to these donkey-droppers? (note to Moderators: a donkey-drop is a kind of delivery in cricket. It is not intended, at this point, to compare any member to a donkey.)

Why is the ganges the dirtiest river in the world yet the whole Indus River is used to drink out of?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hindu Kush mountain was because the Indians of the hot plains of India during M


Why is the ganges the dirtiest river in the world yet the whole Indus River is used to drink out of?

Let me guess.

Is it because all of the inhabitants of the Indus Valley are descended from a couple of sheep-herders from the Altai Mountains and had nothing to drink but their enemies' blood? Out of their enemies' skulls? Making them so (genetically) thirsty that they'll drink anything in liquid form?

Every Sindhi wife knows that.

 

[fitpOsitive]

Let me guess.

Is it because all of the inhabitants of the Indus Valley are descended from a couple of sheep-herders from the Altai Mountains and had nothing to drink but their enemies' blood? Out of their enemies' skulls? Making them so (genetically) thirsty that they'll drink anything in liquid form?

Every Sindhi wife knows that.

Brother Joe, it was a joke, and just intended for amusement. Sindhi women are one of the best women in the world. Beautiful and faithful.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Darn it, got it now!

@Sindhu(Indus)

Are you a Sindhi wife?

Magnificent!

Pakistani cricket produces fast bowlers like an assembly line.

PDF produces this sort like an assembly line.

@Indus Pakistan

I know I'm addressing far too many tags to you, but this situation is too delicious to resist.

Do you realise that you are the Mike Brearley to these donkey-droppers? (note to Moderators: a donkey-drop is a kind of delivery in cricket. It is not intended, at this point, to compare any member to a donkey.)

I don't mind you taggig me Joe. Sometimes I don't have time to reply or should I say 'considered reply'. Your tags don't deserve 'shoot an scoot' replies I often use when being economical with time.

I think I need to clarify my thoughts on nationalism. It is true that nationalism can be dangerous and we saw that what it did to Europe in both WWs. But it is also true that nationalism is needed. It is badly needed in un-reformed countries in the developing world. Whereas Europe is at a stage that could be described as post-nationalism, most of the developing world is in early stages of pre-nationalism.

In a pre-national state a country will be riven along tribal, clan, caste, ethnic, sub-ethnic, religious, sectarian, regional cleaveages all of which detract and make developing a modern state difficult and in worse cases descent into chaos. Therefore in the context of developing world and specifically Pakistan I feel nationalism is a weed [poisonous] that needs to be nurtured. Thus my attempts at nourishing it by whatever means possible even if it involves creating a 'us against them' narrative because that will plaster over the cleavages we have. But I am also cognizant of the extremism from the religioius groups so I go for a secular narrative of 'us against them'. And if that means making others look 'evi;' so be it. Ends justify the means.

The other thing is nationalism itself. I was reading a article [I forget or else I would love to link it here] that said nationalism is a recent concept. The feeling of belonging to something like a nation state become only possible with rise of modern media. We can all associate with a family, clan or possibly a tribe but beyond that the numbers get so large that a individual cannot possibly know or be able to relate with other members of a nation state. Modern media creates that common space that all individuals of a nation state can relate to.

This is done by weaving myth, history, legend etc amongst a population. Once the idea [howsoever artifical or constructed] takes hold the nation state comes into existence. In other words if people believe they belong to XYZ because of so and so then that becomes reality. It does not need logic or some fundamental basis behind it. Mere belief is sufficient to make it exist. This is exactly what western states have done. Manufacture myths and narratives, spread them through the population via schools, media and propaganda. Once that has been done relentlessly it eventually takes root.

Living in the west I am fascinated how similiar most of Europe or even the wider west is. If you trace a line from New York east to Dublin, London, Brussels, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Berlin, Warsaw, Kiev, Talinin, Moscow you will cross a dozen countries along 4,000 mile range but the actual real differances between the peoples is same if not less than from Peshawar to Islamabad to Lahore a distance of 200 miles. But in Europe at every step the same people [often speaking the same language and same religion] they have branded differant identities and then compete on those - in past on the battlefield but today on the footbal field.

You have your 'freedom' USA, your emerald isle [Ireland], your queen [British], your cultured French, industrious Germans, Vodka Russians. One family has incredibl created so many brands each proud and vocal about it. Take British isles. The brother who stayed behind is British today, the one who settled in Ulster is Irish, one is American, one is Ausatralian, one New Zealand. Each have managed to stamp a separate identity when all are from the same womb. I mean New Zealanders have managed to brand themselves as Kiwi's. The differance between a Kiwi and a 'Stralian is zero. But each has better formed identity and nationalism then Pakistan.

Therefore I think Pakistan needs doze of nationalism based on anything as long as it build a united identity that forms the base of a modern succesfull economic entity. What is needed is a violent, hard push for 'Pakistan' in brazen way. And in this context people like @Sindhi(Indus) are needed badly.

 

[Sindhi(Indus)]

I'm not racist, I consider the Brahui and Balochis as Sindhis

I even consider the Makrani Balochis from Africa as Sindhis

The reason is that they live in Sindh and if given a chance would fight for Sindh

I didn't mean to upset any people of India especially not Indian Muslims as this is not directed towards you

My facts are towards the RSS and Tarek Fatah trolls that try to teach our history

Also to the Zionist funded Singh world organization that are lying too

I'm alright with Indian Muslims and see them as pre Buddhist

I've heard that majority of India's Muslims are Arabs, Buddhist, lower caste that were pushed around

I've always separated Indian Muslims from Hindus and never saw them as the same

 

[Joe Shearer]

I don't mind you taggig me Joe. Sometimes I don't have time to reply or should I say 'considered reply'. Your tags don't deserve 'shoot an scoot' replies I often use when being economical with time.

I think I need to clarify my thoughts on nationalism. It is true that nationalism can be dangerous and we saw that what it did to Europe in both WWs. But it is also true that nationalism is needed. It is badly needed in un-reformed countries in the developing world. Whereas Europe is at a stage that could be described as post-nationalism, most of the developing world is in early stages of pre-nationalism.

In a pre-national state a country will be riven along tribal, clan, caste, ethnic, sub-ethnic, religious, sectarian, regional cleaveages all of which detract and make developing a modern state difficult and in worse cases descent into chaos. Therefore in the context of developing world and specifically Pakistan I feel nationalism is a weed [poisonous] that needs to be nurtured. Thus my attempts at nourishing it by whatever means possible even if it involves creating a 'us against them' narrative because that will plaster over the cleavages we have. But I am also cognizant of the extremism from the religioius groups so I go for a secular narrative of 'us against them'. And if that means making others look 'evi;' so be it. Ends justify the means.

The other thing is nationalism itself. I was reading a article [I forget or else I would love to link it here] that said nationalism is a recent concept. The feeling of belonging to something like a nation state become only possible with rise of modern media. We can all associate with a family, clan or possibly a tribe but beyond that the numbers get so large that a individual cannot possibly know or be able to relate with other members of a nation state. Modern media creates that common space that all individuals of a nation state can relate to.

This is done by weaving myth, history, legend etc amongst a population. Once the idea [howsoever artifical or constructed] takes hold the nation state comes into existence. In other words if people believe they belong to XYZ because of so and so then that becomes reality. It does not need logic or some fundamental basis behind it. Mere belief is sufficient to make it exist. This is exactly what western states have done. Manufacture myths and narratives, spread them through the population via schools, media and propaganda. Once that has been done relentlessly it eventually takes root.

Living in the west I am fascinated how similiar most of Europe or even the wider west is. If you trace a line from New York east to Dublin, London, Brussels, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Berlin, Warsaw, Kiev, Talinin, Moscow you will cross a dozen countries along 4,000 mile range but the actual real differances between the peoples is same if not less than from Peshawar to Islamabad to Lahore a distance of 200 miles. But in Europe at every step the same people [often speaking the same language and same religion] they have branded differant identities and then compete on those - in past on the battlefield but today on the footbal field.

You have your 'freedom' USA, your emerald isle [Ireland], your queen [British], your cultured French, industrious Germans, Vodka Russians. One family has incredibl created so many brands each proud and vocal about it. Take British isles. The brother who stayed behind is British today, the one who settled in Ulster is Irish, one is American, one is Ausatralian, one New Zealand. Each have managed to stamp a separate identity when all are from the same womb. I mean New Zealanders have managed to brand themselves as Kiwi's. The differance between a Kiwi and a 'Stralian is zero. But each has better formed identity and nationalism then Pakistan.

Therefore I think Pakistan needs doze of nationalism based on anything as long as it build a united identity that forms the base of a modern succesfull economic entity. What is needed is a violent, hard push for 'Pakistan' in brazen way. And in this context people like @Sindhi(Indus) are needed badly.

The drinks are on me when we meet. We shall.

However, I reserve judgement about your approbation of our newbie; he lacks much.

PS: Do you remember how they described the poems of Sappho? 'Few, but roses.' This is why I tag you, chief. For the sheer delight of reading the brilliant reply that sometimes comes out. You realise that you are doomed, that I will tag you unmercifully, hoping for just another such answer!

Brother Joe, it was a joke, and just intended for amusement. Sindhi women are one of the best women in the world. Beautiful and faithful.

Of COURSE I know that! I was just using it as a cudgel to 'school' the little fellow

 

[Great Janjua]

Why do some Pakistani members think they have Arab origin you don't unfortunately we are people of the indus region we shall remain indus till the world ends no one has Arab blood in their veins inside the indus valley bongia na maro this land is sacred it has given birth to brave people matched no where in the world Islam was given to us by the grace of Allah and we should be thankful for that .our castes are reminders of our great ancestors who fought valiantly against invading foreigners and if hindus think that sindhis can only be hindus you are in great error. Castes are not part of one's religion they are part of ones identity culture irrespective of religion castes bound our civilization together if your a sindhi hindu or a muslim sindhi none of the latter can claim superiority over the other key part you are both sindhis once the protecters of the sindhu subcontinent now divided by beliefs only Allah knows best

 

[Indus Pakistan]

PS: Do you remember how they described the poems of Sappho? 'Few, but roses.' This is why I tag you, chief. For the sheer delight of reading the brilliant reply that sometimes comes out. You realise that you are doomed, that I will tag you unmercifully, hoping for just another such answer!

Not a problem. I am glad you like my reply. I have just come back from the gym, 1,000 steps on stairmill at max pace, upper body weight training and now I feel exhausted. Dead. Everytime I do this I swear no more. But then in a few days I am back at it.

 

[scorpionx]

I don't mind you taggig me Joe. Sometimes I don't have time to reply or should I say 'considered reply'. Your tags don't deserve 'shoot an scoot' replies I often use when being economical with time.

I think I need to clarify my thoughts on nationalism. It is true that nationalism can be dangerous and we saw that what it did to Europe in both WWs. But it is also true that nationalism is needed. It is badly needed in un-reformed countries in the developing world. Whereas Europe is at a stage that could be described as post-nationalism, most of the developing world is in early stages of pre-nationalism.

In a pre-national state a country will be riven along tribal, clan, caste, ethnic, sub-ethnic, religious, sectarian, regional cleaveages all of which detract and make developing a modern state difficult and in worse cases descent into chaos. Therefore in the context of developing world and specifically Pakistan I feel nationalism is a weed [poisonous] that needs to be nurtured. Thus my attempts at nourishing it by whatever means possible even if it involves creating a 'us against them' narrative because that will plaster over the cleavages we have. But I am also cognizant of the extremism from the religioius groups so I go for a secular narrative of 'us against them'. And if that means making others look 'evi;' so be it. Ends justify the means.

The other thing is nationalism itself. I was reading a article [I forget or else I would love to link it here] that said nationalism is a recent concept. The feeling of belonging to something like a nation state become only possible with rise of modern media. We can all associate with a family, clan or possibly a tribe but beyond that the numbers get so large that a individual cannot possibly know or be able to relate with other members of a nation state. Modern media creates that common space that all individuals of a nation state can relate to.

This is done by weaving myth, history, legend etc amongst a population. Once the idea [howsoever artifical or constructed] takes hold the nation state comes into existence. In other words if people believe they belong to XYZ because of so and so then that becomes reality. It does not need logic or some fundamental basis behind it. Mere belief is sufficient to make it exist. This is exactly what western states have done. Manufacture myths and narratives, spread them through the population via schools, media and propaganda. Once that has been done relentlessly it eventually takes root.

Living in the west I am fascinated how similiar most of Europe or even the wider west is. If you trace a line from New York east to Dublin, London, Brussels, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Berlin, Warsaw, Kiev, Talinin, Moscow you will cross a dozen countries along 4,000 mile range but the actual real differances between the peoples is same if not less than from Peshawar to Islamabad to Lahore a distance of 200 miles. But in Europe at every step the same people [often speaking the same language and same religion] they have branded differant identities and then compete on those - in past on the battlefield but today on the footbal field.

You have your 'freedom' USA, your emerald isle [Ireland], your queen [British], your cultured French, industrious Germans, Vodka Russians. One family has incredibl created so many brands each proud and vocal about it. Take British isles. The brother who stayed behind is British today, the one who settled in Ulster is Irish, one is American, one is Ausatralian, one New Zealand. Each have managed to stamp a separate identity when all are from the same womb. I mean New Zealanders have managed to brand themselves as Kiwi's. The differance between a Kiwi and a 'Stralian is zero. But each has better formed identity and nationalism then Pakistan.

Therefore I think Pakistan needs doze of nationalism based on anything as long as it build a united identity that forms the base of a modern succesfull economic entity. What is needed is a violent, hard push for 'Pakistan' in brazen way. And in this context people like @Sindhi(Indus) are needed badly.

Just wtf did I read!! I mean seriously, this is what PDF worth visiting for.

 

[Hamza913]

Why do some Pakistani members think they have Arab origin you don't

1. A lot of us do.
2. The OP is not talking about that.

our castes are reminders of our great ancestors who fought valiantly against invading foreigners

We're Muslim because our ancestors decided to join their lashkars. Like it or not, that's the reality.

 

[Great Janjua]

1. A lot of us do.
2. The OP is not talking about that.



We're Muslim because our ancestors decided to join their lashkars. Like it or not, that's the reality.

You seem to be in the clouds am trying to tell you our ancestors were the same no matter what caste or religion you belong to we are still the sindhu people be it on this side of the border or that side and hardly 0000.1% of the population has Arabic lineage the Arab lineage theory is just a blatant lie I chuckle anytime a guy says to me he is related to the great bin qasim or his aba is from Damascus like chill bro your from the land between chenab and jhelum

 

[Hamza913]

am trying to tell you our ancestors were the same no matter what caste or religion you belong to

Not true.

https://www.harappadna.org/2012/05/harappaworld-admixture/

The above link contains another link to a spreadsheet containing the DNA results of many Muslims and non-Muslims. Here are some of the results from people in our area (NW of the sub-continent), please note that SW Asian ancestry comes from Arabia and the Levant:

Kashmiri Paharis (overwhelmingly Muslim): 2% SW Asian admixture
Kashmiri Pandits (overwhelmingly not Muslim): 0% SW Asian admixture

Punjabi Arains (overwhelmingly Muslim): 2% SW Asian admixture
Punjabi Muslim Jatts: 2% SW Asian admixture
Punjabi Brahmins: 0% SW Asian admixture

Gujarati Muslims: 4% SW Asian admixture
Gujarati Patels (overwhelmingly not Muslim): 0% SW Asian admixture

Muslim Punjabi Gujjar, he obtained 3% SW Asian admixture:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12411-Pakistani-Gujjar-Results-Harappa

More studies on Muslim Gujjars from NW India, they're shown to be distinct from Hindu Gujjars in a number of ways:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3163234

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3812661

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14524001

Other genetic studies on Muslims from India:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pub...

"we observed a certain degree of genetic contribution from Iran to both Muslim populations"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2859343/

“The correlation between the admixture contributions from Arabia and Iran is positive, with significant correlation coefficient values”

hardly 0000.1% of the population has Arabic lineage

The statistics clearly indicate otherwise.

Anyway, regardless of one's lineage, our ancestors still fought in the lashkars of these Muslim empire's. Like it or not, that's a fact. You're a Jat right? Well, believe it or not, Jats fought for Muhammad Bin Qasim:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...v=onepage&q=Muhammad Bin Qasim Gurjar&f=false

 

[Great Janjua]

Not true.

https://www.harappadna.org/2012/05/harappaworld-admixture/

The above link contains another link to a spreadsheet containing the DNA results of many Muslims and non-Muslims. Here are some of the results from people in our area (NW of the sub-continent), please note that SW Asian ancestry comes from Arabia and the Levant:

Kashmiri Paharis (overwhelmingly Muslim): 2% SW Asian admixture
Kashmiri Pandits (overwhelmingly not Muslim): 0% SW Asian admixture

Punjabi Arains (overwhelmingly Muslim): 2% SW Asian admixture
Punjabi Muslim Jatts: 2% SW Asian admixture
Punjabi Brahmins: 0% SW Asian admixture

Gujarati Muslims: 4% SW Asian admixture
Gujarati Patels (overwhelmingly not Muslim): 0% SW Asian admixture

Muslim Punjabi Gujjar, he obtained 3% SW Asian admixture:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12411-Pakistani-Gujjar-Results-Harappa

More studies on Muslim Gujjars from NW India, they're shown to be distinct from Hindu Gujjars in a number of ways:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3163234

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3812661

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14524001

Other genetic studies on Muslims from India:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pub...

"we observed a certain degree of genetic contribution from Iran to both Muslim populations"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2859343/

“The correlation between the admixture contributions from Arabia and Iran is positive, with significant correlation coefficient values”



The statistics clearly indicate otherwise.

Anyway, regardless of one's lineage, our ancestors still fought in the lashkars of these Muslim empire's. Like it or not, that's a fact. You're a Jat right? Well, believe it or not, Jats fought for Muhammad Bin Qasim:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...v=onepage&q=Muhammad Bin Qasim Gurjar&f=false

Mate mate mate listen carefully am not saying we did not fight for bin qasim the great what am saying is before our ancestors were muslim or Hindu they were the same people be it on this side or the other side they fought together Etcetera the thing is most pakistanis need to come out of this cave saying we share nothing in common with our neighbours that is true to some extent like we share nothing in common with the south Indians or some north, east, middle bits of Indian but we do share majority of our dna with the close border areas and further into the center they are legit the same people as us we shouldn't get carried away from our real identity the puttars of sindhu you can take a dna test and it will show where 99 percent of your dna cones from it's not hard to bust this Arab bubble