Why Pakistan has abandoned F-16 Deal with US....???

[MastanKhan]

ISI and Pakistan Army are the most powerful institutions in Pakistan. If they could get away with the Lal Masjid operation and hanging of Mumtaz Qadri, they could also capture Osama Bin Laden and parade him in the public naked and get away with it.

Pakistani authorities have investigated this matter at a great length and documented its findings in Abbottabad Commission Report. Highly recommended: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/724833-aljazeera-bin-laden-dossier.html

Hi,

What do you mean get away---regarding Lal Masjid and Qadri---.

Qadri was a terrorist---he had taken an oath to protect and serve---he swore an oath---he was a uniformed soldier---. If he wanted to kill Taseer---he should have resigned from his job---.

As for Lal Masjid---Mushy shoul dhave done what any Amir ul Momineen would have done----or any Muslim king of the past---execute all male and female members over the age of 14----and put the rest of them in a training camp and raised the Red mosque to the ground being a hub of terrorist activity and also being on illegal land.

I'll give you an honest view on stuff I am debating others with. Unlike our Indian friends, I am not here to show off how awesome America is. We don't talk and show off like others do on here and else where. We DO IT. And let the world see the awesomeness. Actions speak much louder than the words.

On the above, you don't know ANYTHING about the seating capacity or the loading capacity of these heli's. These were built a few in numbers and with much more powerful engines, avionics, altered size etc. The level of sophistication is such that it alone, like the Raptor (but limited though) can Jam Radars by itself beyond being Stealthy. It won't be uncommon or it to go undetected and take a dozen people with it.

The Chinook in question, wouldn't have the seating capacity needed as it was modified for carrying fuel for heli's and it was carrying fuel for both, plus extra equipment and supplies, etc, in case a fight broke out and supplies were needed.

The Pak Army wasn't on the scene. The SEAL's did the ops and a few others with translators did the blocking off the corridor. This was a VERY quick operation and lasted for just a short while.

Check these out. Remember the Airwolf? That was a prototype for Stealth hi-speed and heavy weapon systems with advanced avionics (C4I), and then the newer version of the Stealth heli. No one can tell me on here they know the seating capacity or capability in these pics!! So that Black-hawk was a cross between these two. So no one knew how that ghost was from the inside, outside of the people who used it!!

View attachment 310065

This puppy now has everything the above does, plus a LOT of advance tech, seating capacity and much more fuel and load carrying capability:View attachment 310066



This guy is being punished because he helped id OBL's family and then got their DNA's and other details. I believe capturing someone like OBL, was a favor to humanity. This guy should be freed and in fact, he helped Pakistan in many ways in getting this person. If OBL was alive today, like the other attacks from Taliban, he would be directing stuff towards Pakistan too, as he didn't have the capability anymore to even do something in Dubai!! Let alone the West.

On Baluchistan, I don't have any input. Sorry. Those attacks were ordered per the President's policy of taking out all high level terrorists wherever they were found. POTUS was pretty clear about it when he announced it years ago.



That is EXACTLY my point. This situation, if played well, would've helped soften Pakistan's image. 1: Thank you USA for cleaning up this mess. 2: This is how pissed off we are at these terrorists, that our people are even willing to help the US like this Doctor did (and even with the negative sentiment). This is why I keep saying, the military is too black and white, they can't use any diplomatic situation to their advantage and thus the wrong calls made in the foreign policy over the decades!! Diplomacy is ALL about how to use events and situations to your country's benefit without getting into a bad situation like Pakistan is with the US now. That thing, only civilian minds who think like that and are used to politics can do.

Hi,

It was not a quick operation---. The remaining seals were on the ground 45 minutes---the Chinook had to dump the fuel bladders in a field---to come pick them up.

The guy Dr Afridi is being punished for thumbing his nose at the country---he had the chance to depart with his family---nicely and quietly---but in his arrogance he refused---wanting to take care of some PETTY BUSINESS AFFAIRS.

Now is this the height of stupidity on his part---a major evet has taken place in the country---his family has been whisked away by american special forces out of the country---and this dumb fck moron---the supposed central character wants stay behind to sell his house and business and things like that---supposedly---the goofball is being told multiple times by the U S operators that he might face dire consequences---but he don't give a sh-it---maybe because he thought that he did not have much involvement---or he did not do anything to damage his motherland---basically no known involvement.

Or all this vaccination was a drama setup by the U S intel agy's to save Gen Kiyani and Gen Pasha's ar-se----and divert the attention to someone else. A scapegoat----a scapegoat who did not know what was in the works---but was supposedly given protection---.

So--he never anticipated the arrest and the aftermath---.

Gen Kiyani / Gen Pasha needed someone to take the full blame---so that their names would not come to the forefront.

The supposed shooter in his tv interview---one time stated that they had to wait 45 minutes for the chinook to come pick them up after the first helicopter left.

Zero dark thirty was a much needed feel good movie for Obama---with 25% truth to it.

Why would Pakistan want to look bad in the OBL episode?

Capture of OBL should be a matter of pride for the nation. Yet, it became the beacon of embarrassment for the nation. Something is amiss.

Whosoever is responsible, let us not assume that CIA is incompetent in its operations. Dr. Shakil Afridi had no clue that his polio vaccination campaign was being used to collect Intel from the region. By the time he realized what was going on, it was too late for him. But he could escape from the country, if he wanted to. He didn't.

It is difficult for a common man to grasp the ground realities of how CIA operates.

We continue to tout that RAW did this and that in Pakistan, but when it comes to CIA; ISI might be collaborating.

Hi,

I just read your post after writing my comments---.

Pres Bush made open statements that the U S is not after Osama Bin Laden anymore---the americans care less what happens to Osama---.

But paks did not understand the deceit and connivance of Obama---who was in a very difficult spot for his second term in office.

 

[RedRock]

It is treason to help foreign powers in an attack on Pakistan.
The killing of OBL is hardly an attack on Pakistan, unless Pakistan considers Al-Qaeda to be an ally.

chena my swedish friend. not my rules buddy, the countries.

 

[aftab_s81]

Moral of the story: Let civilians lead the foreign policy, Military is too narrow minded for diplomacy. If military is allowed to steer foreign policy, they will screw up everything just like in Pakistan. .

@MastanKhan @Viper0011.

 

[RedRock]

If Pervez Musharraf can be booked under the charges of treason, Shuja Pasha and Pervaiz Kiyani can be as well.

Blow-back is expected from operations against militants at times. However, this does not stops ISI and Pakistani Army from performing their duties; they are supposed to be tough and expected to dismantle support structures of militants within Pakistan.

Their is no justification of Americans conducting an operation deep inside Pakistani territory and Pakistan Army watching the show from a distance. Even the most die-hard American stooges won't be comfortable with this kind of arrangement.

If US creates a new enemy figure tomorrow, inserts him in Kahuta and conduct an operation against him in the area at a later stage just like Operation Neptune Spear. Would you still claim that Pakistan Army was involved?

We should not look for ways to justify American operations within Pakistani territory, we should discourage this precedent.

If Pervez Musharraf can be booked under the charges of treason, Shuja Pasha and Pervaiz Kiyani can be as well...TRUE

Blow-back is expected from operations against militants at times. However, this does not stops ISI and Pakistani Army from performing their duties; they are supposed to be tough and expected to dismantle support structures of militants within Pakistan.....TRUE, but, why create new enemies and more problems when you are already stuck in a big pile of mess as we were at that time. And to top it of we had haqqani as our ambassador if i am not wrong and the cherry on the cake, Zardari as our president. I am not justifying what Kayani and Pasha have done IF they were involved(never said they were and never will know if they are) all i am giving is my point of view of why they did what they did.

Their is no justification of Americans conducting an operation deep inside Pakistani territory and Pakistan Army watching the show from a distance....TRUE

Even the most die-hard American stooges won't be comfortable with this kind of arrangement....like a poster has already written, apparently they are.

If US creates a new enemy figure tomorrow, inserts him in Kahuta and conduct an operation against him in the area at a later stage just like Operation Neptune Spear. Would you still claim that Pakistan Army was involved?...don't know what you meant by this reference.

We should not look for ways to justify American operations within Pakistani territory, we should discourage this precedent.....agree with you a 100%

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

???? What's the topic of your post? Just rambling.......?? The Chinese stole American stealth designs, there is nothing that they've "learned" through science, hard work and experiment

The downed chopper's tail at best could give them an understanding of some RAM quoting but the real experience gained was through stolen designs. Next time, give me an example of someone who actually did research in this field like the US has, and she's been building Stealth tech for 40+ years now!!!! The rest of the is off topic and I don't really understand the purpose of!!



That's ALL you could come up with? If you ANYTHING factual, I'd have seen it in your response. So yea,LOL obviously is the answer when you have no facts to counter or the discussion is much higher than one's IQ!!

All properties* are stolen - Karl Marx (who is better in understanding the western folks???)

Every US policy mistake since 9/11 has resulted in amplified gain for China. With foregoing F16s the US leverage on Pak is put to the death bed, which is being very cleverly exploited by China. Forget about technology or businesses, what will happen to the USA when the Capital and monetary instruments take a flight to China??? I had the confidence you would figure out these fine points in my post instead of being overly superficial..

*inetllectual property >> physical ones

 

[SBD-3]

Time to move on. Save up and buy something else, or plough the money into something more worthwhile. The deal was always mired in doubt, especially with the fact that US taxpayers were asked to part fund the jets.

A-Save up what? (when 70% of funds would be coming from FMS)
B-What something else? (When the planes of equal of higher quality would only be available at same or even higher price tag plus payment in full except maybe J-10 which would come with soft loans)

 

[Viper0011.]

apparently they are...

That's untrue, they are only when Pakistani side is reluctant to take out people as inane as OBL and his buddies. That's ONLY when the US has to be "comfortable" with it. But Pakistan is a sovereign nation, if the commitments made between the two nations are honored, I can't imagine why the US would do it alone.

I've given you a true count of the history, Mushy used to come to the US, agree with the US on goals and objectives, would go back and in Corps Commanders' briefing would brag about how he had the Americans by the ball and he can fool them in any way shape or form. As he thought we were so "stuck" in Afghanistan.

This needed to be played with the utmost sensitivity......dealing with a super power, getting billions in aid and other benefits, and making a fool out of them would only last for a little while. Now when India puts 200K troops, weapons and jets in Afghanistan, tell me how grave that situation would be for Pakistan?

I want you guys to understand what I am trying to explain here.......my posts aren't "anti-Pak military". I am trying to tell you guys where the ball was dropped many times. And this partnership (whatever is left out of it between the US and Pakistan), could've benefited Pakistan tremendously on all aspects including the economy and military hardware. But it was screwed over by the same constant "temporary strategy" by the running general as policy making is NOT their forte!!! You guys, as Pakistanis need to realize when something is good and something is bad. I would personally like to see Pakistan grow like India has. But these "temporary strategies" since Zia's time till now, have ONLY pushed Pakistan back.

Its time that Pakistani military leadership became an adviser and allow the civilian leaders in developing a strategy / foreign policy to ensure growth of the country on all fronts, including influence and military affair. They can advise and ensure that the goals are being met, but going to countries as an Army Chief, and requesting to meet their Presidents (who don't even meet their own general unless absolutely needed), makes no sense. They look down upon the uniform (like the Army men on Civilians in Pakistan). So does Pakistan want to run like all other civil, mature, growing countries, or does Pakistan want to be that one exception to the rule in the entire globe? Its not my country and obviously, I don't have a say in it. But as a human, caring for 220 million people, I feel like its my obligation to at-least tell you how the world looks at these things in terms of Pakistan.

A-Save up what? (when 70% of funds would be coming from FMS)
B-What something else? (When the planes of equal of higher quality would only be available at same or even higher price tag plus payment in full except maybe J-10 which would come with soft loans)

Precisely the point I've been trying to make!!!!! If Mushy played his cards honestly and really formed a real honest partnership, Pakistan could've received a TON of benefits and it would be all beneficial on the economic end as well as on the military end. Now, to get a similar platform, you'll need more funds.

If I had any say in these relationships and I was Gen. Raheel, I'd meet with the current civilian government (this doesn't has to be NS, let's pretend IK or whoever you like was in power, but try to understand the point please). I would ask these guys to devise a foreign policy based on economic objectives (just like India did in 1994 and sold it to the US even being in Russian block for 5 decades through Mr. Rao and Mr. Singh). The military advises the Civilians on what it needs in terms of hardware, influence, leverage, etc, and let them go show you the results. Do a small project like this as a Test. You'll be surprised to see results. But in that process, no general needs to go run around asking Vice Presidents and Presidents to "meet" with him. That would kill it. Let the Civilian system do what you need done but also remember, this is about growing a country. Not just about the military. If a country doesn't grow, it will fail and eventually go bankrupt and beak. So the strategy has to be for the country. Not who is more macho than the other. Everyone needs to work together.

Moral of the story: Let civilians lead the foreign policy, Military is too narrow minded for diplomacy. If military is allowed to steer foreign policy, they will screw up everything just like in Pakistan. .

@MastanKhan @Viper0011.

They will screw up stuff like the F-16's, future generations of much needed advance munitions, billions of investments which for the US, would be a piece of cake to do, influence across the globe, etc, etc. Military should be involved of-course, but as an advisor not generals running around in planes, trying to meet with democratic countries VP and Presidents (who don't like the uniform and don't even give their own generals time as they are civilian elected). That's the point. When you want to drive a Motorbike, you learn the rules to drive it, when you drive a Car, you learn the rules and same for riding a horse or flying a plane.

Similarly, if you want the world to work with you and treat you the same specially in terms of India, you have to learn the rules that would get you there. That's Civilians doing it, its not any Military's jobs or a part of their training. So focus on your country, not your ego, allow the right people to run your foreign policy (that's your civilian government, whoever it may be). And allow them to deliver. Slowly but surely, all of these things can be fixed! At the end of the day, Pakistan needs to grow, expand and become a peaceful, growing and prosper nation and a global economy. That would drive all military spending and strength up also.

 

[thrilainmanila]

Hi,

That is an interesting example---in the real world---that Geek becomes a doctor, a computer guy, a wealth manager etc etc etc---and then there is a long line of thiose same girls for him

And that is where pakistan has missed out---. The nerd has learnt that if he achieves high goals---are these pretty blondes and brunettes and other kinds are available dime a dozen---.

But pakistan cannot even graduate from high school---the mentality of the politicians is at that of a PRIMARY school level and that of the military is stuck at the 10----12th grade thinking.

And it is all due to a lack of exposure to the world---a lack of understanding the issues and problems---and accepting that they have problems understanding the issues and then seeking help---.

Your over complicating things I said viz a vi the F solah issue is where the geek narrative registers

 

[MastanKhan]

Moral of the story: Let civilians lead the foreign policy, Military is too narrow minded for diplomacy. If military is allowed to steer foreign policy, they will screw up everything just like in Pakistan. .

@MastanKhan @Viper0011.

Hi,

In order for you to do that---you have to have a designated foreign minister. The screw ups in pakistan incidently are not military---but civilian.

 

[C130]

Pakistan needs to look into acquiring

108- J-31 $6,500,000.000
36- JH-7B $1,800,000,000
that's $8.3 billion flyaway cost


if China is willing to subsidize half the cost it's a win-win for all.

 

[MastanKhan]

That's untrue, they are only when Pakistani side is reluctant to take out people as inane as OBL and his buddies. That's ONLY when the US has to be "comfortable" with it. But Pakistan is a sovereign nation, if the commitments made between the two nations are honored, I can't imagine why the US would do it alone.

I've given you a true count of the history, Mushy used to come to the US, agree with the US on goals and objectives, would go back and in Corps Commanders' briefing would brag about how he had the Americans by the ball and he can fool them in any way shape or form. As he thought we were so "stuck" in Afghanistan.

This needed to be played with the utmost sensitivity......dealing with a super power, getting billions in aid and other benefits, and making a fool out of them would only last for a little while. Now when India puts 200K troops, weapons and jets in Afghanistan, tell me how grave that situation would be for Pakistan?

I want you guys to understand what I am trying to explain here.......my posts aren't "anti-Pak military". I am trying to tell you guys where the ball was dropped many times. And this partnership (whatever is left out of it between the US and Pakistan), could've benefited Pakistan tremendously on all aspects including the economy and military hardware. But it was screwed over by the same constant "temporary strategy" by the running general as policy making is NOT their forte!!! You guys, as Pakistanis need to realize when something is good and something is bad. I would personally like to see Pakistan grow like India has. But these "temporary strategies" since Zia's time till now, have ONLY pushed Pakistan back.

Its time that Pakistani military leadership became an adviser and allow the civilian leaders in developing a strategy / foreign policy to ensure growth of the country on all fronts, including influence and military affair. They can advise and ensure that the goals are being met, but going to countries as an Army Chief, and requesting to meet their Presidents (who don't even meet their own general unless absolutely needed), makes no sense. They look down upon the uniform (like the Army men on Civilians in Pakistan). So does Pakistan want to run like all other civil, mature, growing countries, or does Pakistan want to be that one exception to the rule in the entire globe? Its not my country and obviously, I don't have a say in it. But as a human, caring for 220 million people, I feel like its my obligation to at-least tell you how the world looks at these things in terms of Pakistan.




Precisely the point I've been trying to make!!!!! If Mushy played his cards honestly and really formed a real honest partnership, Pakistan could've received a TON of benefits and it would be all beneficial on the economic end as well as on the military end. Now, to get a similar platform, you'll need more funds.

If I had any say in these relationships and I was Gen. Raheel, I'd meet with the current civilian government (this doesn't has to be NS, let's pretend IK or whoever you like was in power, but try to understand the point please). I would ask these guys to devise a foreign policy based on economic objectives (just like India did in 1994 and sold it to the US even being in Russian block for 5 decades through Mr. Rao and Mr. Singh). The military advises the Civilians on what it needs in terms of hardware, influence, leverage, etc, and let them go show you the results. Do a small project like this as a Test. You'll be surprised to see results. But in that process, no general needs to go run around asking Vice Presidents and Presidents to "meet" with him. That would kill it. Let the Civilian system do what you need done but also remember, this is about growing a country. Not just about the military. If a country doesn't grow, it will fail and eventually go bankrupt and beak. So the strategy has to be for the country. Not who is more macho than the other. Everyone needs to work together.



They will screw up stuff like the F-16's, future generations of much needed advance munitions, billions of investments which for the US, would be a piece of cake to do, influence across the globe, etc, etc. Military should be involved of-course, but as an advisor not generals running around in planes, trying to meet with democratic countries VP and Presidents (who don't like the uniform and don't even give their own generals time as they are civilian elected). That's the point. When you want to drive a Motorbike, you learn the rules to drive it, when you drive a Car, you learn the rules and same for riding a horse or flying a plane.

Similarly, if you want the world to work with you and treat you the same specially in terms of India, you have to learn the rules that would get you there. That's Civilians doing it, its not any Military's jobs or a part of their training. So focus on your country, not your ego, allow the right people to run your foreign policy (that's your civilian government, whoever it may be). And allow them to deliver. Slowly but surely, all of these things can be fixed! At the end of the day, Pakistan needs to grow, expand and become a peaceful, growing and prosper nation and a global economy. That would drive all military spending and strength up also.

Hi,

It is a drama that the U S has played in this arena---indeed pakistan is at fault---but the U S is the biggest trouble maker in the arena.

Right from day one---when the killing of Osama Bin Laden turned into an invasion of afghanistan and liberation of afghans---rather than targetting al qaeda---from that day---american greed overcame the true need for revenge.

This war basically never started with executing Osama Bin Laden---. This war started to test the newest weaponry that was designed and manufactured after the first gulf war.

Killing Osama Bin Laden was never the target of this war---. The target was to land a christian army in a muslim land---get a foothold---get a secure place.

If Shahbaz Sharif had joined Mushy for the sake of pakistan---it would have been a different story---but Shahbaz sold himself short to play second fiddle to his brother.

Mushy tried to get Shahbaz---but Shahbaz tricked Mushy---Amin Fahim also chickened out---and so did Imran Khan---.

I gave a lots of blame to Mushy---but a major part of the blame also goes on the political parties as well----.

 

[Viper0011.]

Hi,

It is a drama that the U S has played in this arena---indeed pakistan is at fault---but the U S is the biggest trouble maker in the arena.

Right from day one---when the killing of Osama Bin Laden turned into an invasion of afghanistan and liberation of afghans---rather than targetting al qaeda---from that day---american greed overcame the true need for revenge.

This war basically never started with executing Osama Bin Laden---. This war started to test the newest weaponry that was designed and manufactured after the first gulf war.

Killing Osama Bin Laden was never the target of this war---. The target was to land a christian army in a muslim land---get a foothold---get a secure place.

If Shahbaz Sharif had joined Mushy for the sake of pakistan---it would have been a different story---but Shahbaz sold himself short to play second fiddle to his brother.

Mushy tried to get Shahbaz---but Shahbaz tricked Mushy---Amin Fahim also chickened out---and so did Imran Khan---.

I gave a lots of blame to Mushy---but a major part of the blame also goes on the political parties as well----.

MK - We'll have to learn to agree to disagree. There was no need to "Test" weapons built whenever in Afghanistan. We have similar empty Rocky mountains here where this kind of testing happens all the time.

We went there because we were attacked. And we were attacked today too where 50 people died without having a reason to see a Gun in that facility, let alone receiving bullets while they were in a Club as part of their normal life. This was the SAME reason why we went to Afghanistan, we wanted to cut off the terrorist and ideology support to other places including the US in the future. Imagine if there was 100K terrorist running around still alive today, trying to find a way to get to the West or the US???? So 100K terrorist less is MUCH better than having them potentially turn into 200K today (15 years later). So there are valid reasons why we went to Afghanistan. I have reservations about Iraq like many other ordinary people and law makers do to. But Afghanistan was the MOST important place to be, to dismantle this global terrorism network who only killed others without mercy. Just like what we say this early AM on TV in Orlando.

I used to work in that area and used to go drinking with my friends not too far from Pulse. I used to have business meetings just right up the street from this area. So you can imagine how pissed I am today. We will go wherever the crazy effing terrorists exist. Today, was a renewed 9-11 IMO.

On Mushy and the rest, well, you see what happened in Orlando this morning......there were many issues like these across the globe that could've been avoided if Mushy had delivered on his commitments. He didn't even care about Pakistan, the SAME terrorist have killed over 50000 Pakistanis. So his demeanor and attitude was just selfish and time passing. With billions of American dollars flowing, he and a few of his buddies saw $$$$ and opportunity. Not blood of innocent victims which he committed to protect along with the US. He needed to deliver on that instead of playing double games and all. He isn't trust worthy and that's why no body wanted to work with him even inside Pakistan. The US realized that after 7-8 years sadly.

That's the US reservation with Pakistan and its become stronger with time and now its resulting in the US finding that partner in the shape of India, to fill this vacuum in Afghanistan.

 

[ziaulislam]

That's untrue

i have always believed that there is a complete understanding between civilia and definitivelyively military leadership with US when into comes to this issue

a simple fact: drones were limited in other regimes even in mushi era when he had strong sense of pakistani image.
i am not saying the will not do a critical drone like what they did recently but now a days its matter of routine

 

[Viper0011.]

i have always believed that there is a complete understanding between civilia and definitivelyively military leadership with US when into comes to this issue

You've clearly missed a lot of details I've posted above. Go re-read. In Pakistan, the "understanding" means, the military says "this is what we are going to do or tell NATO / US" and you have to say this on tv!! There isn't really a discussion around it or asked for a revision from the civilian leadership. In the modern world, understanding means, ALL stakeholders have looked at the broader objectives (welfare and growth of Pakistan), and have provided their inputs, have discussed and vetted out a clear agenda and all parties are on the same page of the final policy. That is the "real" understanding. And that's never existed between Civil and Military of Pakistan when it comes to the foreign policy sadly. Civilians are looked down upon as if they can't write A,B,C,D or don't know how to speak in front of the world. So there you have it. As clear and bold I can explain the issue to you!!

 

[ziaulislam]

You've clearly missed a lot of details I've posted above. Go re-read. In Pakistan, the "understanding" means, the military says "this is what we are going to do or tell NATO / US" and you have to say this on tv!! There isn't really a discussion around it or asked for a revision from the civilian leadership. In the modern world, understanding means, ALL stakeholders have looked at the broader objectives (welfare and growth of Pakistan), and have provided their inputs, have discussed and vetted out a clear agenda and all parties are on the same page of the final policy. That is the "real" understanding. And that's never existed between Civil and Military of Pakistan when it comes to the foreign policy sadly. Civilians are looked down upon as if they can't write A,B,C,D or don't know how to speak in front of the world. So there you have it. As clear and bold I can explain the issue to you!!

i understood your part but is this in our interest , that is what started the whole conversation. Leadership broadly don't care or don't understand?