Why Pakistan has abandoned F-16 Deal with US....???

[Viper0011.]

i understood your part but is this in our interest , that is what started the whole conversation. Leadership broadly don't care or don't understand?

Leadership who? The military or the civilians? The Civilians have no say in foreign policy like I stated.

 

[MastanKhan]

MK - We'll have to learn to agree to disagree. There was no need to "Test" weapons built whenever in Afghanistan. We have similar empty Rocky mountains here where this kind of testing happens all the time.

We went there because we were attacked. And we were attacked today too where 50 people died without having a reason to see a Gun in that facility, let alone receiving bullets while they were in a Club as part of their normal life. This was the SAME reason why we went to Afghanistan, we wanted to cut off the terrorist and ideology support to other places including the US in the future. Imagine if there was 100K terrorist running around still alive today, trying to find a way to get to the West or the US???? So 100K terrorist less is MUCH better than having them potentially turn into 200K today (15 years later). So there are valid reasons why we went to Afghanistan. I have reservations about Iraq like many other ordinary people and law makers do to. But Afghanistan was the MOST important place to be, to dismantle this global terrorism network who only killed others without mercy. Just like what we say this early AM on TV in Orlando.

I used to work in that area and used to go drinking with my friends not too far from Pulse. I used to have business meetings just right up the street from this area. So you can imagine how pissed I am today. We will go wherever the crazy effing terrorists exist. Today, was a renewed 9-11 IMO.

On Mushy and the rest, well, you see what happened in Orlando this morning......there were many issues like these across the globe that could've been avoided if Mushy had delivered on his commitments. He didn't even care about Pakistan, the SAME terrorist have killed over 50000 Pakistanis. So his demeanor and attitude was just selfish and time passing. With billions of American dollars flowing, he and a few of his buddies saw $$$$ and opportunity. Not blood of innocent victims which he committed to protect along with the US. He needed to deliver on that instead of playing double games and all. He isn't trust worthy and that's why no body wanted to work with him even inside Pakistan. The US realized that after 7-8 years sadly.

That's the US reservation with Pakistan and its become stronger with time and now its resulting in the US finding that partner in the shape of India, to fill this vacuum in Afghanistan.

Sir,

I understand that the U S was attacked---but the drama that the U S created in afghanistan had nothing to do with capturing Osama Bin Laden but to lay the land waste.

Even though you may have mountains---there is nothing that comes close to real time killings and testing of wqeapons when real human flesh and body blow up.

So---the excuse of the U S invasion is no good---right at the moment the U S military let Osama Bin Laden escape from Tora Bora---that excuse was done and dusted.

After that---it is all murder and execution of muslims.

It is a historical fact=---than any successful campaigns that have been carried out against insurgents---those who revolted or otherwise---they swift in execution---the leaders were rounded up and summarily executed and areas captured and sanitized.

The U S military did none of this----rather there was a lackadaisical approach to the cause---ie---the revenge for the death of 3000 american men and women.

And now it has turned into the deaths of over 4 million muslims at the hands of the christian army and their cohorts and lackeys.

These second coming of the Christers have ruined this world---and there is no end in sight to the stupidity of Pres Obama---.

I am as rascist of a man as one black man who another who calls another black man a ' nigger'---and I will tell you clearly----and my country men do not understand me----.

In the first Guld war---the biggest fear I had was from Collin Powell---during the second time around---the biggest fear I had was from Condi Rice and Collin Powell---and the third time I was scared was when Obama came into power.

Do---you know what is common amognst these three---they are black---black leaders amongst the white---and you know what happens under these circumstance---they have to man up and do things more ruthless and brutal than those of other skin color to prove their loyalty and conviction for the nation.

There is none more radical than a new convert---I fear new converts---I feared these three black people more---because they had more power than anyone else---and all the white community revered the first two---.

And Obama---he had to prove himself to be the man in front of the white people---and you can see his atrocities are equally horrendous.

Mushy could only do so much----the dead are as much the fault of the U S for not containing their enemies in their region of conquest---the pakistani public who did not want to believe many a terrorists were muslims.

It was the operation of a super power----it was the right of the american sodlier to execute the terrorists at the start of the campaign after 9/11---.

There is no open carte blanche given to the U S soldier to murder muslims without any restraints. The time of kiling muslims is over---. The U S needs to get out of its areas of conquest---the misery and destruction it has brought in---must stop.

 

[ziaulislam]

Leadership who? The military or the civilians? The Civilians have no say in foreign policy like I stated.

why? because they want to protect their govt?
i know what you are saying but civilian leadership doesn't care and military leadership has no interest

 

[Signalian]

The US didnt keep its word of payment so Pakistan backed off from the deal too instead of paying the amount it wasnt supposed to pay.

 

[Viper0011.]

why? because they want to protect their govt?
i know what you are saying but civilian leadership doesn't care and military leadership has no interest

So you have two parties (Civil and Military), one doesn't care and the other one has no interest as you explained? Well, the result is the mess Pakistan's been in for decades!!

 

[RedRock]

That's untrue, they are only when Pakistani side is reluctant to take out people as inane as OBL and his buddies. That's ONLY when the US has to be "comfortable" with it. But Pakistan is a sovereign nation, if the commitments made between the two nations are honored, I can't imagine why the US would do it alone.

I've given you a true count of the history, Mushy used to come to the US, agree with the US on goals and objectives, would go back and in Corps Commanders' briefing would brag about how he had the Americans by the ball and he can fool them in any way shape or form. As he thought we were so "stuck" in Afghanistan.

This needed to be played with the utmost sensitivity......dealing with a super power, getting billions in aid and other benefits, and making a fool out of them would only last for a little while. Now when India puts 200K troops, weapons and jets in Afghanistan, tell me how grave that situation would be for Pakistan?

I want you guys to understand what I am trying to explain here.......my posts aren't "anti-Pak military". I am trying to tell you guys where the ball was dropped many times. And this partnership (whatever is left out of it between the US and Pakistan), could've benefited Pakistan tremendously on all aspects including the economy and military hardware. But it was screwed over by the same constant "temporary strategy" by the running general as policy making is NOT their forte!!! You guys, as Pakistanis need to realize when something is good and something is bad. I would personally like to see Pakistan grow like India has. But these "temporary strategies" since Zia's time till now, have ONLY pushed Pakistan back.

Its time that Pakistani military leadership became an adviser and allow the civilian leaders in developing a strategy / foreign policy to ensure growth of the country on all fronts, including influence and military affair. They can advise and ensure that the goals are being met, but going to countries as an Army Chief, and requesting to meet their Presidents (who don't even meet their own general unless absolutely needed), makes no sense. They look down upon the uniform (like the Army men on Civilians in Pakistan). So does Pakistan want to run like all other civil, mature, growing countries, or does Pakistan want to be that one exception to the rule in the entire globe? Its not my country and obviously, I don't have a say in it. But as a human, caring for 220 million people, I feel like its my obligation to at-least tell you how the world looks at these things in terms of Pakistan.




Precisely the point I've been trying to make!!!!! If Mushy played his cards honestly and really formed a real honest partnership, Pakistan could've received a TON of benefits and it would be all beneficial on the economic end as well as on the military end. Now, to get a similar platform, you'll need more funds.

If I had any say in these relationships and I was Gen. Raheel, I'd meet with the current civilian government (this doesn't has to be NS, let's pretend IK or whoever you like was in power, but try to understand the point please). I would ask these guys to devise a foreign policy based on economic objectives (just like India did in 1994 and sold it to the US even being in Russian block for 5 decades through Mr. Rao and Mr. Singh). The military advises the Civilians on what it needs in terms of hardware, influence, leverage, etc, and let them go show you the results. Do a small project like this as a Test. You'll be surprised to see results. But in that process, no general needs to go run around asking Vice Presidents and Presidents to "meet" with him. That would kill it. Let the Civilian system do what you need done but also remember, this is about growing a country. Not just about the military. If a country doesn't grow, it will fail and eventually go bankrupt and beak. So the strategy has to be for the country. Not who is more macho than the other. Everyone needs to work together.



They will screw up stuff like the F-16's, future generations of much needed advance munitions, billions of investments which for the US, would be a piece of cake to do, influence across the globe, etc, etc. Military should be involved of-course, but as an advisor not generals running around in planes, trying to meet with democratic countries VP and Presidents (who don't like the uniform and don't even give their own generals time as they are civilian elected). That's the point. When you want to drive a Motorbike, you learn the rules to drive it, when you drive a Car, you learn the rules and same for riding a horse or flying a plane.

Similarly, if you want the world to work with you and treat you the same specially in terms of India, you have to learn the rules that would get you there. That's Civilians doing it, its not any Military's jobs or a part of their training. So focus on your country, not your ego, allow the right people to run your foreign policy (that's your civilian government, whoever it may be). And allow them to deliver. Slowly but surely, all of these things can be fixed! At the end of the day, Pakistan needs to grow, expand and become a peaceful, growing and prosper nation and a global economy. That would drive all military spending and strength up also.

Hey
I feel you are looking at it from an american pov by placing the blame on the military leadership. What you have to understand is that the military did not have many options. The US came in bombing their way to get the Taliban out. Lets say the Pakistan's agreed with that approach. What was you next move?
Support drug lords and warlords who have committed genocide? and who are very anti pakistan
Place Karzai as the president??
Give our no.1 enemy a role to play??
Pakistan military did what it had to, cause they knew if they played along with the US they would have created more enemies and allowed India a major part to play, which was out of the question. I feel the former DG ISI Asad Durrani has explained it perfectly in all his interviews. On the onset of this war Pakistan military leadership realized that the US and us were not real allies. You played a double game with us by supporting war lords and drug mafia cartels who were anti Pakistan, and placed an anti Pakistan guy as their leader and on top of that allowed India a foot hold in that country next to our borders, and turned a blind eye to the activities they conducted in Pakistan. Now you tell me, why should the military have trusted you? Did the USA actions on the ground warrant our trust. I say no. You pushed them into a tight corner or should i say pushed them towards the very policies you are right now saying is ruining the relationship. If you had been sincere you would not have done the things i have mentioned(in BOLD). anyhow..this is my pov, a guy who has no "inside information". i may be very wrong, but i just feel you all started this mess and we just did what we had to, to survive.