Why Muslims and British did not ban caste system?

[jamahir]

Well abolishing caste system now will harms lower caste people. Generation of discrimination, made weak socially and financially. Current Indian constitution provides Reservation in education, jobs and politics and also anti discrimination laws to protect them.

The best and simplest thing to do would be to implement Communism whose current form can include these elements :

1. The Jamahiriya direct democracy system that governed Libya until 2011 and was also adapted for Venezuela by Hugo Chavez. This system really embodies the "Withering away of the State" desire of Communism. People ruling themselves without political parties, five-yearly election, unnecessarily complicated political structures, just yes / no votes etc. This system will be developed on the basis of social enlightenment and will dismantle social classification.

2. Implement a Communistic socio-economic system which retains a money system but has abolished the traditional money system which maintained economic classes ( rich, middle, poor ) and other elements like stock markets. I propose such a system in this thread.

This way an instant transformation will occur in Indian society whose side effect will be abolition of the caste system.

Invaders did not ban it

Let us use the word Invader with the understanding that the original Hindus were invaders too. The came in probably around 3000 years ago.

and they were all racists themselves.

How ?

Discrimination on the basis of caste is illegal in India.

Untouchability is banned since 1950

Please tell that to the ghost of Dalit student Rohith Vemula who committed suicide in 2016 in his university campus because he was being oppressed by Upper Caste university officials and Upper Caste government officials.

Please tell that to his mother and brother who converted to Buddhism the same year.

And about 1950, tell that to the ghost and descendants of Bhimrao Ambedkar who left caste-ridden Hinduism and converted to Buddhism in 1956 along with approx 500,000 of his followers.

 

[kankan326]

If you must insist that this is a caste, all right.
But there are only two caste classes, and the population of lower castes is so small. Isn't that a little strange?

It meets all characteristics of caste. 贱民 were hereditary and could only do some most humble works. Every Chinese knows below man. His family once belonged to 贱民. Acting was regarded as humble work in ancient China.

 

[lightoftruth]

Looks good on paper but 16% Dalits have never made it to PM, COAS, head of R&AW. Only in 2006 a dalit was made chief justice it became a news. Dalits still get killed if they touch upper caste hindus, drink water from their areas or enter into their temples. India has a structured bias against Dalits.

Our president is dalit, many Chief Ministers are Dalit, BJP-RSS has huge membership from dalit community.

Even PM Modi is not upper caste and has proudly called himself an OBC.

Read SC/ST ACT

1.The SC/ST Act lists 22 offences relating to various patterns or behaviors inflicting criminal offences and breaking the self-respect and esteem of the scheduled castes and tribes community. This includes denial of economic, democratic and social rights, discrimination, exploitation and abuse of the legal process.

2. According to the SC/ST Act, the protection is provided from social disabilities such as denial of access to certain places and to use customary passage, personal atrocities like forceful drinking or eating of inedible food sexual exploitation, injury etc, atrocities affecting properties, malicious prosecution, political disabilities and economic exploitation.

3. For speedy trial, Section 14 of the SC/ST Act provides for a Court of Session to be a Special Court to try offences under this Act in each district.

4. The prime objective of the SC/ST Act is to deliver justice to marginalized through proactive efforts, giving them a life of dignity, self-esteem and a life without fear, violence or suppression from the dominant castes.

and this is your blasphemy law:-

" Use of derogatory remarks, etc. in respect of the Holy Prophet. Whoever by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representation, or by any imputation, innuendo, or insinuation, directly or indirectly, defiles the sacred name of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) shall be punished with death, or imprisonment for life, and shall also be liable to a fine. "

And this is it's result.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/worl...for-committing-blasphemy-101632815004881.html

 

[jamahir]

Our president is dalit

LOL. Him being president did not stop him and his wife from being harassed by Brahmin priests during a visit to the well-known Jagannath temple in Odisha some years ago.

BJP-RSS has huge membership from dalit community.

LOL again. That is as good as the RSS having the Muslim Rashtriya Manch, the "Muslim" unit of RSS. These two units don't stop the Hindutvadi oppression of Dalits and Muslims.

 

[Paitoo]

Let us use the word Invader with the understanding that the original Hindus were invaders too. The came in probably around 3000 years ago.

Fair enough, I don't have a problem with that.

While the Muslims were probably more meritocratic in their military recruitments, racism is a different matter. Indian lower castes have had a raw deal under all kinds of administrations. There is a hierarchy among muslims as well, and one of the indicators of this can be found in matrimonial ads. Since I don't buy the newspaper anymore I can't show you evidence. But you are intelligent enough and surely know this.

The bottomline is that discrimination has always existed. We may add qualifiers to it such as 'social', 'economic', 'political' etc but in the end it all originates from a feeling of superiority.

 

[jamahir]

Fair enough, I don't have a problem with that.

There is a hierarchy among muslims as well, and one of the indicators of this can be found in matrimonial ads. Since I don't buy the newspaper anymore I can't show you evidence. But you are intelligent enough and surely know this.

Well, yes. There are so-called Shaikh and Syed communities in India who many times inter-marry within their own communities. Also the non-inter-marrying between Shia and Sunni in general.

The bottomline is that discrimination has always existed. We may add qualifiers to it such as 'social', 'economic', 'political' etc but in the end it all originates from a feeling of superiority.

Communism, sir. Communism is the answer like I described in short in post# 46.

 

[MH.Yang]

It meets all characteristics of caste. 贱民 were hereditary and could only do some most humble works. Every Chinese knows below man. His family once belonged to 贱民. Acting was regarded as humble work in ancient China.

View attachment 781213

Yes, in ancient China, beggars, actors and other occupations were regarded as lower-class occupations. But these occupations are not hereditary.
Caste occupations should be hereditary. And it should have something to do with race and color.

 

[Maula Jatt]

Fair enough, I don't have a problem with that.

While the Muslims were probably more meritocratic in their military recruitments, racism is a different matter. Indian lower castes have had a raw deal under all kinds of administrations. There is a hierarchy among muslims as well, and one of the indicators of this can be found in matrimonial ads. Since I don't buy the newspaper anymore I can't show you evidence. But you are intelligent enough and surely know this.

The bottomline is that discrimination has always existed. We may add qualifiers to it such as 'social', 'economic', 'political' etc but in the end it all originates from a feeling of superiority.

Do muslims have castes in India?
From my experience they mostly have Arabic last names which despite whatever hindutavas (saying they're low-caste people- first experienced it when hindutavas were insulting Muhajirs with this) may say is kinda good tbh
Over generations you can forget your previous castes and start fresh

Except for Syed, I didnt see someone else acting like a big shot

In Pakistan we didn't have this practice, you always had your clan name regardless of religion like there's a Bajwa, janjua everywhere

This trend is slowly coming to halt, last names are changing but still this clan affiliation is strong (I say clan cause I don't think it's a caste issue, it's more of a tribal issue)

 

[SIPRA]

A sort of recognized and accepted social hierarchical structure suited all the medieval rulers. Why would thay have disturbed it?

 

[Paitoo]

Do muslims have castes in India?
From my experience they mostly have Arabic last names which despite whatever hindutavas (saying they're low-caste people- first experienced it when hindutavas were insulting Muhajirs with this) may say is kinda good tbh
Over generations you can forget your previous castes and start fresh

Except for Syed, I didnt see someone else acting like a big shot

In Pakistan we didn't have this practice, you always had your clan name regardless of religion like there's a Bajwa, janjua everywhere

This trend is slowly coming to halt, last names are changing but still this clan affiliation is strong (I say clan cause I don't think it's a caste issue, it's more of a tribal issue)

Not officially. Maybe a better way of putting it is that there is a strong preference for fair skin (again, Hindus are no exception) and lineage during marriage. Among muslims who claim to be descendents of some or the other royal family, this is a factor.

It works in the reverse direction too. Dark skinned and poorer muslims seem to have extra courtesy and even admiration reserved for fair skinned and higher status muslims. Clan distinctions are virtually absent among Indian muslims.

Finally, it would be dishonest of me to say that these differences manifest in an identical way among Hindus and Muslims. They don't. Muslims are not openly discriminatory, and apart from personal matters, actually demonstrate a brotherhood, at least publicly.

These are all from second hand observations as I am not a muslim myself. Perhaps @jamahir can throw more light on it.

 

[VkdIndian]

Hinduism got corrupted and adopted the caste system. When Islam came to this region, it was expected that this system wouldn’t be adopted by the converts. However, Muslims in this region continue adopt it with few variations. It is rampant even amongst Muslims to seek marriage with higher caste Muslims. It is seen in other dealings too.

Caste system among South Asian Muslims - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

@jamahir may be able to throw some more light on it, since he dwells on social aspects in depth.

 

[jamahir]

Perhaps @jamahir can throw more light on it.

Thank you. Well, like @Sainthood 101 himself inferred it is probably the elders of Syed caste / clan who think of themselves to be superior. Then there is another thing in India called Shaikh who probably think of themselves as descending from Arabs who came into the Subcontinent and the Shaikhs consider themselves superior because the first Muslims were Arabs and the Quran was first produced in Arabic.

However, Muslims in this region continue adopt it with few variations. It is rampant even amongst Muslims to seek marriage with higher caste Muslims. It is seen in other dealings too.

Caste system among South Asian Muslims - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

@jamahir may be able to throw some more light on it, since he dwells on social aspects in depth.

Thank you. I agree with your comment and went through your link and agree with it. Indian Muslims may pray alongside in mosques and be friends crossing caste boundaries but I don't know if inter-marriage will be regular in the cities although it is the cities where a more enlightened and egalitarian approach is expected.

 

[MH.Yang]

Jamahir would certainly say Libya blablabla, Islamic communism blablab.

 

[jamahir]

Jamahir would certainly say Libya blablabla

Libya was certainly more Communist than the China of the "Communist Party" of China. Though I think Libya's ideological maintainers like Gaddafi did not use the word Communist for their country because of the perceived association with atheism but Gaddafi did write an essay that was titled something like "Has Communism arrived yet ?".

Islamic communism blablab.

A section from my 2016 thread whose OP is a long article by Pakistani journalist Nadeem Paracha and chronicles Socialist / Communist activism among Muslims from the early 1900s :

During the same period (1920s-30s), another (though lesser known) Islamic scholar in undivided India got smitten by the 1917 Russian revolution and Marxism.

Hafiz Rahman Sihwarwl saw Islam and Marxism sharing five elements in common: (1) prohibition of the accumulation of wealth in the hands of the privileged classes (2) organisation of the economic structure of the state to ensure social welfare (3) equality of opportunity for all human beings (4) priority of collective social interest over individual privilege and (5) prevention of the permanentising of class structure through social revolution.

The motivations for many of these themes he drew from the Qur’an, which he understood as seeking to create an economic order in which the rich pay excessive, though voluntary taxes (Zakat) to minimise differences in living standards.

In the areas that Sihwarwl saw Islam and communism diverge were Islam’s sanction of private ownership within certain limits, and in its refusal to recognise an absolutely classless basis of society.

He suggested that Islam, with its prohibition of the accumulation of wealth, is able to control the class structure through equality of opportunity.

Basically, both Sindhi and Sihwarwl had stumbled upon an Islamic concept of the social democratic welfare state.

 

[Novus ordu seclorum]

Well, yes. There are so-called Shaikh and Syed communities in India who many times inter-marry within their own communities. Also the non-inter-marrying between Shia and Sunni in general.

Syed = Kshatriya Sharif/Deva [Sumerian origin]
Sheikh = Rajput Scythian [Central Asian Origin]. Appropriated Kshatriya caste.

Indian civilization was founded on castes; should not be surprising to find continuation of identities where they are blood related ethnicities as well. Some people adopted those names, others dropped them, but originally they are ethnic caste identities. We can understand histioriography of ancient India by it. PS. There was a time when Syed Sunni and Syed Shia marriage was not as rare as they maybe today.