Why Islam took a violent and intolerant turn in Pakistan

[Luftwaffe]

Someone is trying hard, move on loser' ultra liberal whining mouth has not solved any problems yet come with something with what you and your kind offers the world something credible.

 

[K^se]

Seperation of Church and State.. Religion and Democracy cannot be intertwined..

 

[muse]

Religion and Democracy cannot be intertwined..

Sure they can, they are intertwined in Europe and in North America -- What I think you are pointing to is that religion has a legitimate role in culture and in conscience in society, but that a nation states political structure or architecture does not arise exclusively from religion and it's politics are not informed exclusively by religion.

Separation of Church and State does not mean that religion plays no role at all, rather it means that in a religiously, ethnically pluralistic society, the state must ensure that confession is the realm of the private, even as conscience includes the public.

It's important to be as specific as we can be, we don't want to scare people, on the other hand the Wahabi/Deobandi/Ahle hadith types can simply not be reconciled and other remedies will have to be applied to them, including sadly, the eventuality that they will express themselves with violence.

 

[Pride]

I am just a participant like you here. It is up to Mods and Admin to enforce rules as they see fit. I am trying to keep things on track but failing miserably.

Sorry VCheng.. My point was not being offensive but to open for all other things except listed down points in topic..

 

[Pride]

if i say something to you then you will call it conspiracy ...i think you should stay away from things ,you dont know..

World's biggest problem is that people believe that they know much more than others and hence lose to listen others and applying their own thought process... If you think I dont know anything then I can never ever convince you..

 

[Pride]

You wont find "absolute" Islam anywhere but in Islam itself. If allah wanted he could have made every human being obedient to him 24/7 but the whole point of creating Mankind was to let them make decision on their own and Allah revealed his guidance to them to fallow.

Absolutely... I second on that..There is nothing "True" or "Absolute" in any religion and many of the times they get affected by Socio-politico-geographical environment. Here, in my opinion, If Pakistan stick to only one theory and that is Islamic principle only and leave other impactic issues as I mentioned above the situation may be much more better. The normal public need to ignore the leaders/Mullahs and go back to basic books of religion and understand the messages within. This will make a normal people to be more tolerant and complete.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Seperation of Church and State.. Religion and Democracy cannot be intertwined..

In Islamic nations, it is intertwined.

If one goes through Ayesha Jalal/s The State of Martial Rule, Tan Tai Yong's Punjab and Making of Pakistan etc. one would understand how religion plays a part in the ethos of Post Partition Pakistan.

In short, the 'sons of the soil' i.e. those natives of West Pakistan, who were feudal and not highly educated, but were in large majority in the army, felt alienated by the more educated Mohajirs (refugees from India), since they latter practically took over the governance, judiciary and commerce of Pakistan and became the de facto rulers of Pakistan.

On the other hand, the Mohajirs had no roots to the soil of what became Pakistan and so were insecure. Therefore, the devised a mechanism to ensure their relevance to Pakistan. They introduced Urdu (their language) as the National Language and made Islam the centrepoint of matters Pakistan. And the Mohajirs were more steeped in religion than the landed easy going native sons of the soil. Thus, religion was cranked into the politics and governance.

Not to be outdone, the Punjabis, who were in the majority in the Army, seized the Kashmir issue and turn the tables on the Mohajirs by using the very tool of the Mohajirs - Islam - to prove that the Punjabis were the real torchbearers of Pakistan.

And this seesaw battle continues in Pakistan wherein Punjab has benefited most at the expense of the other provinces.

And Islam continues to be the common denominator in this political seesaw.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

You wont find "absolute" Islam anywhere but in Islam itself. If allah wanted he could have made every human being obedient to him 24/7 but the whole point of creating Mankind was to let them make decision on their own and Allah revealed his guidance to them to fallow.

That may be true.

However, when each person takes his own decision, he thinks he is the last word of being pious and a true Muslim and then goes to bomb the place out of shape claiming it is the true Islam path shown and deemed to them!

That is where the problem lies.

None to decide who is a Muslim or what a Muslim is and should be!

Each is a Khalifa to himself!

 

[53fd]

Sure they can, they are intertwined in Europe and in North America -- What I think you are pointing to is that religion has a legitimate role in culture and in conscience in society, but that a nation states political structure or architecture does not arise exclusively from religion and it's politics are not informed exclusively by religion.

Separation of Church and State does not mean that religion plays no role at all, rather it means that in a religiously, ethnically pluralistic society, the state must ensure that confession is the realm of the private, even as conscience includes the public.

It's important to be as specific as we can be, we don't want to scare people, on the other hand the Wahabi/Deobandi/Ahle hadith types can simply not be reconciled and other remedies will have to be applied to them, including sadly, the eventuality that they will express themselves with violence.

Most European countries & North America are for the most part secular. They have seen the brutality of Christianity during its Dark Ages, they see the brutality of Christianity in today's world when fanatics kill doctors that perform abortions, stuff like that. So they are pretty much disinclined from religion, & I can safely say that as someone who's spent most of his life in America & living here.

The only role religion has to play in America is on a personal level. Which is fine, for a young country like America. The land of Pakistan is thousands of years old, it is filled with tradition, & religion plays a huge part in it. Btw, there are ideological differences between Wahabis/Ahle Hadith/Salafis & the Deobandis, I hope you realize that. Deobandis belong to the Hanafi school of thought, while the Salafis belong to the Hanbali school of thought. Islam is going through the same Dark Ages that Christianity went through in the 1500's. Christianity is about 600 years older than Islam, Christianity went through its Dark Ages in the 1500's, & its about the right time that Islam is going through its, in the 2000's. A day might come when Muslims become disinclined of Islam the way Christians are today. But Pakistan is an ancient land, full of tradition, & religion plays a huge part in an everyday person's life, unlike in the West.

 

[Vinod2070]

When you keep butchering Muslims from all over the world, from Palestine to Bosnia to Kashmir; and now to Afghanistan, Bahrain, Pakistan; some of the followers of the religion are going to get violent. Religion doesn't have to do anything with this, some of the followers just lose their cool, & religion shouldn't be made a scapegoat for this. The IRA did the same to the UK, & those people weren't Muslims either.

OK, let's see.

Bosnia happened a long time ago. There Muslim lives were saved by the kaffirs of USA, not the faithful! Would that still make "some of the followers just lose their cool"?

Against those who saved the Muslims or who had nothing to do with it?

The rest "Palestine to Bosnia to Kashmir; and now to Afghanistan, Bahrain, Pakistan"!

In all of them, the butchers are exclusively or majorly Muslims.

 

[Vinod2070]

Islam is going through the same Dark Ages that Christianity went through in the 1500's. Christianity is about 600 years older than Islam, Christianity went through its Dark Ages in the 1500's, & its about the right time that Islam is going through its, in the 2000's. A day might come when Muslims become disinclined of Islam the way Christians are today. But Pakistan is an ancient land, full of tradition, & religion plays a huge part in an everyday person's life, unlike in the West.

That is an interesting thought!

Are you alone in thinking like this or are there others?

 

[53fd]

OK, let's see.

Bosnia happened a long time ago. There Muslim lives were saved by the kaffirs of USA, not the faithful! Would that still make "some of the followers just lose their cool"?

Against those who saved the Muslims or who had nothing to do with it?

The rest "Palestine to Bosnia to Kashmir; and now to Afghanistan, Bahrain, Pakistan"!

In all of them, the butchers are exclusively or majorly Muslims.

Palestine - Butchered by Muslims?
Kashmir- Butchered by Muslims?
Afghanistan - Butchered by Muslims?
Pakistan - Butchered by Muslims?
Iraq - Butchered by Muslims?

Get a little perspective my friend

 

[53fd]

That is an interesting thought!

Are you alone in thinking like this or are there others?

Are you being sarcastic or serious? I can't really tell sitting on the internet. Anyways, that's just my personal opinion after putting some thought into this. Both Christianity & Islam are Abrahamic religions, & have a lot of similarities in many ways. I see Islam following the route of Christianity. In the 1500's, you weren't allowed to question the Church, today no one can question Saudi Arabia, which is the main source of extremism. So it's not Islam, but the authority that claims to be representing Islam (mullahs, Saudi Arabia) that have control over the people right now, just like the Church did in the 1500's. Coupled with the fact that Saudi Arabia also serves as a proxy for Western powers that aim to control the region.

 

[Vinod2070]

Palestine - Butchered by Muslims?
Kashmir- Butchered by Muslims?
Afghanistan - Butchered by Muslims?
Pakistan - Butchered by Muslims?
Iraq - Butchered by Muslims?

Get a little perspective my friend

Yes!

Palestine: At least some of it due to the terror by the likes of Hama/Hizbollah. Though I won't discuss this much.

Kashmir: All problems due to the Islamic terror sponsored and let lose by Pakistan. A very large number of victims by the terrorists and rest in cross fire.

Afghanistan: 80%+ casualties due to your dear Islamic Taliban!

Pakistan: Almost all murders by the Islamic terrorists.

Iraq: The vast majority of death due to sectarian bombings and murders.

 

[Vinod2070]

Are you being sarcastic or serious? I can't really tell sitting on the internet here. Anyways, that's just my personal opinion after putting some thought into this. Both Christianity & Islam are Abrahamic religions, & have a lot of similarities in many ways. I see Islam following the route of Christianity in many ways. In the 1500's, you weren't allowed to question the Church, today no one can question Saudi Arabia, which is the main source of extremism. Coupled with the fact that Saudi Arabia also serves as a proxy for the Western powers that aim to control the region.

I am not being sarcastic. I even think you may have a point here.

However, the Christian dark ages were when there was little science to disprove the religious fantasies.

This is not the case now! Why still the dark age of Islam?