Why Hindi-Urdu is One Language and Arabic is Several

[EjazR]

Neither does Urdu have an independent history from Hindi

The word Urdu didn't come until the 1800s just like Hindi didn't come until the 1800s. And it might be your ignorance that you think Iqbal or Amir Khsrau is not comprehensible to Indians/ They might not be able to read Nastaliq script but if the same poetry is in Devangiri then they will be able to understand it. At least as much as an average Pakistani can. Not to mention the 50-60million Urdu speakers in India as well.

 

[53fd]

Similarly Arab traders that came to Kerala wrote Malayalam in the Arabic script as they were more comfortable with it. They also incorporated some Arabic language words. But the language was still Malayalam. It did'nt become Arabic because it was written in Arabic script.

So you admit that Muslims have a right to the Sanskrit derived dialects & all the ancient South Indian languages at the time, right? So why do Indians say Sanskrit derived words are foreign words in Urdu?

 

[Vinod2070]

The works of Khusro, Ghalib, Shah Zafar, Iqbal are not comprehensible to the average Hindustani speaker today, but they are to most Urdu speakers.

You are wrong about Ghalib and Iqbal at least. Others I have not read so much.

You are fooling yourself if you think Indians can't understand "Saare jahan se achchhaa"!

I am sure most of us will be able to understand Khusro as well, epecially those from North India.

For you it would be a foreign language anyway. Just because you can understand English doesn't make it your language.

 

[Vinod2070]

Don't Include all Indians into this discussion, i am keeping out of this discussion for the only reason that i am not a native speaker of Hindi. Only 35% of Indians speak Hindi as their first language and in that 40% of people speak hindi-urdu, others speak dialects like Bhojpuri, Maithili, Bihari which has no connection with Urdu, i am proud that my mother tongue is classified as classical langugage which Urdu can achieve only in its dreams.

Exactly, these languages with no foreign words themselves prove that the invaders only mixed some foreign words in our existing language.

We can always chose to go back if we wish to. Pakistanis have no business meddling with it.

 

[Vinod2070]

So you admit that Muslims have a right to the Sanskrit derived dialects & all the ancient South Indian languages at the time, right? So why do Indians say Sanskrit derived words are foreign words in Urdu?

What has religion got to do with it?

Any Indian can use Sanskrit. Anyone in the world can use Sanskrit.

It remains an Indian language.

 

[53fd]

Neither does Urdu have an independent history from Hindi

The word Urdu didn't come until the 1800s just like Hindi didn't come until the 1800s.

It doesn't matter what the language is labeled as, its what it actually resembles to. I was arguing that Nastaliq script is Muslim script, as it is a derivation of the Arabic script. The Quran was revealed by Allah in Arabic, so yes, script does matter. The Quran was never written in Devanagari script in its original form. Arabic/Nastaliq script was never used in the Indian subcontinent, so yes, the script has a special significance to Muslims.

And it might be your ignorance that you think Iqbal or Amir Khsrau is not comprehensible to Indians/ They might not be able to read Nastaliq script but if the same poetry is in Devangiri then they will be able to understand it. At least as much as an average Pakistani can. Not to mention the 50-60million Urdu speakers in India as well

Stop making this a thread about India-Pakistan. I never used the word Pakistan here. I used the term 'Indians' to refer to Indian Hindus who speak Hindi. I realize there are Urdu speakers in India as well, I'm not talking about them. Stop making this a thread about India-Pakistan. This is a thread about Urdu-Hindi. And yes, Urdu was born in North Delhi. Indians will not understand the complex Persian/Arabic derived words in their poetry, because the 'Hindi' they speak has been 'purified' by the Indian government post 1947 to get rid of its Arabic/Persian influence.

 

[gulte]

It doesn't matter what the language is labeled as, its what it actually resembles to. I was arguing that Nastaliq script is Muslim script, as it is a derivation of the Arabic script. The Quran was revealed by Allah in Arabic, so yes, script does matter. The Quran was never written in Devanagari script in its original form. Arabic/Nastaliq script was never used in the Indian subcontinent, so yes, the script has a special significance to Muslims.



Stop making this a thread about India-Pakistan. I never used the word Pakistan here. I used the term 'Indians' to refer to Indian Hindus who speak Hindi. I realize there are Urdu speakers in India as well, I'm not talking about them. Stop making this a thread about India-Pakistan. This is a thread about Urdu-Hindi. And yes, Urdu was born in North Delhi. Indians will not understand the complex Persian/Arabic derived words in their poetry, because the 'Hindi' they speak has been 'purified' by the Indian government post 1947 to get rid of its Arabic/Persian influence.

Yes, then whats you point ? I didn't understand what r u trying to prove.

 

[Vinod2070]

It doesn't matter what the language is labeled as

It's only you who has been doing it consistently.

The Shudh Hindi taught in Indian schools has less Arabic/Persian words than Urdu, & hardly anyone speaks this. The language spoken by the masses is Urdu, but they call it Hindi. Simple.

And Khari Boli is not Hindi or Urdu, its Khari Boli. The colloquial 'Hindi'/Hindustani spoken by most Indian people today & by all Indian people prior to 1947 was actually Urdu.

What are you trying to say anyway? You are spinning in circles and not making any point.

 

[53fd]

You are wrong about Ghalib and Iqbal at least. Others I have not read so much.

You are fooling yourself if you think Indians can't understand "Saare jahan se achchhaa"!

I am sure most of us will be able to understand Khusro as well, epecially those from North India.

For you it would be a foreign language anyway. Just because you can understand English doesn't make it your language.

Explain to me the meaning of some of Ghalib's poetry here:

“Shabaan-e- hijraan daraaz chun zulf o roz –e–vaslat, chun umar kohtaah
Sakhi, piya ko jo main na dekhoon, to kaise katoon andheri ratiyan’

“Z-e-hal-e miskin makun taghaaful, varaaye naina banaaye batiyaan
Ke taab-e- hijraan n’daaram e jaan, na leho kaahe lagaaye chatiyaan?”

Are you telling me this is similar to pure colloquial Hindi today?

 

[Vinod2070]

Explain to me the meaning of some of Ghalib's poetry here:

“Shabaan-e- hijraan daraaz chun zulf o roz –e–vaslat, chun umar kohtaah
Sakhi, piya ko jo main na dekhoon, to kaise katoon andheri ratiyan’

“Z-e-hal-e miskin makun taghaaful, varaaye naina banaaye batiyaan
Ke taab-e- hijraan n’daaram e jaan, na leho kaahe lagaaye chatiyaan?”

I can tell you the meaning of this poetry.

unke dekhe se jo aa jaatee hai munh par raunaq
woh samajhte hain ke beemaar ka haal achcha hai

Now, I may not understand his words when he used too much Persian. But most of his shers are very much understood in North India.

Are you telling me this is similar to pure colloquial Hindi today?

This was never the colloquial language in India at any time in history. The language of the court many times differs from the colloquial language.

 

[53fd]

You are wrong about Ghalib and Iqbal at least. Others I have not read so much.

You are fooling yourself if you think Indians can't understand "Saare jahan se achchhaa"!

I am sure most of us will be able to understand Khusro as well, epecially those from North India.

For you it would be a foreign language anyway. Just because you can understand English doesn't make it your language.

Explain to me the meaning of some of Iqbal's poetry here:

"Maut ka nuskha abhi baqi hai ai wirde firaq
Charagar deeewana hai mai ladawa kiunker hua


Shamm-e-mehfil ho k tu jab soz se khaali raha
Tere parwaane bhi is lazzat se be-gaane rahe


Rishta-e-ulfat mein jab in ko piro sakta tha tu
Phir pareshaaN kiyuN teri tasbeeh k daane rahe

Shauq-e-be-parvaa gaya, fikr-e-falak-paimaa gaya
Teri mehfil mein na diwaane na farzaane rahe

Wo jigar-sozi nahi, wo sho’la-aashaami nahi
Faaida phir kya jo gird-e-shamma parwaane rahe

Khair, tu saaqi sahi lekin pilaaye ga kise
Ab na wo mai-kash rahe baaqi, na mai-khaane rahe

Ro rahi hai aaj ik TooTi hui meena usey
Kal talak gardish mein jis saaqi k paimaane rahe

Aaj hain khaamosh wo dasht-e-junooN-parvar, jahaaN
Raqs mein laila rahi, laila k diwaane rahe

Waaye na-kaami, mataa-e-kaarvaaN jaata raha
KaarvaaN k dil se ehsaas-e-zyaaN jaata raha"

---------- Post added at 11:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:54 AM ----------

I can tell you the meaning of this poetry.

Yes, by looking at the translation of his poetry off the internet.

 

[53fd]

This was never the colloquial language in India at any time in history. The language of the court many times differs from the colloquial language.

Thank you for admitting there was no language known as colloquial Hindi. The language of the court was Urdu, after it displaced Persian. It was referred by other titles, such as 'Hindwi' or 'Rekhta', but it represents the language known as Urdu today. There was no such language known as Hindi.

 

[53fd]

Ok, so I'm off for today, I've spent too much time on this thread anyways & you guys aren't sprouting out anything new or interesting. Later folks.

 

[Vinod2070]

Yes, by looking at the translation of his poetry off the internet.

Lol. You don't know anything and this proves it.

 

[Vinod2070]

Thank you for admitting there was no language known as colloquial Hindi. The language of the court was Urdu, after it displaced Persian. It was referred by other titles, such as 'Hindwi' or 'Rekhta', but it represents the language known as Urdu today. There was no such language known as Hindi.

You have a problem understanding the context.

I said the language of those couplets was never the colloquial language!