Why everyone is out to discredit ISI?

[Leader]

It is quite useful.. but I think the blame starts with Ayub Khan..The man who brought the military into power and took its greatest asset : Professionalism at the highest level . and made a mockery out if it.
Zia was a product of that beginning, and so is every other gold braided one that takes power.
However, there are examples of those that did stick to their principles... as there are of those in politics.(Asghar Khan).
The question is, how much of our national character has turned to rot that we are now a nation in shambles.

When what is supposed to be the best of you.. Your military, your core institution's.. turned into puppets or tainted with corruption like the rest of the thieves ruling the roost. Then you truly are a nation running on the good graces of god.

We are not working towards establishing institutions, we got rotten ones from the British, carried on without improving them..

you see everyone is sticky to its inner group, truly a case of undeveloped minds !

 

[Icarus]

I have observed that military apologists have found this notion "Blame Zia" quite useful..

Firstly, I concur with Irfan Bhai, we prefer the term, Pakistan Apologists.
Secondly, I blame Zia because when you were watching singers jumping around on the stage at IK's Lahore Jalsa, I was somewhere in FATA assessing how our history could have allowed us from becoming one of the most liberal muslim counties to a hell hole of religious bigotry and hatred, Zia-era Islamization is where the pivotal change took place in all calculations.

 

[SQ8]

We are not working towards establishing institutions, we got rotten ones from the British, carried on without improving them..

you see everyone is sticky to its inner group, truly a case of undeveloped minds !

So did India.. are you implying that we as a people are rotten to the core? You included?

 

[pak-marine]

=Icarus;3298485]First of all ISI's scope of activities is based on countering foreign elements whereas the TTP and BLA are home grown.

Oh so its alright to have a political cell , but not counter threats like bla , ttp and sindhu desh liberation rats .. what a lame excuse

Secondly, the ISI has adapted well to the requirements of today's Pakistan and it is a great achievement that we have subdued the TTP within such a short time and that too in the middle of the militant bad lands, Sri Lanka, an island took over 26 years to defeat the LTTE.

subdued TTP wouldnt that be a over statement so far karachi , quetta & N waziristan talibans remains un touched though

 

[Leader]

this discussion and any proposal to improve the workings and bringing it according to the constitution and law should remain within the confines of Pakistan. brought up by Pakistanis, discussed with Pakistanis, proposed, amended and decided by Pakistanis

not by people from a country like USA that invades a country after every 3 or 4 years. A country like India that itself has dismal human rights record and is on record reported by human rights watch and amnesty international for grave atrocities by its agencies and forces.

Absolutely !! We all should have this unsaid understanding that its by Pakistanis, for Pakistanis.

 

[Icarus]

We are not working towards establishing institutions, we got rotten ones from the British, carried on without improving them..

you see everyone is sticky to its inner group, truly a case of undeveloped minds !

If being a developed mind means undermining the efforts and sacrifices of arguably the most hard-working men and women in our countries and completely neglect their sacrifices, then I prefer to be an underdeveloped mind.

Oh so its alright to have a political cell , but not counter threats like bla , ttp and sindhu desh liberation rats .. what a lame excuse

The political cell is a huge hoax, it's a fall back for politicians whose governments fail. They can't account for their poor performance so they blame the mysterious Political Cell of the ISI, that NEVER EXISTED.

subdued TTP wouldnt that be a over statement so far karachi , quetta & N waziristan talibans remains un touched though

Karachi: Local Criminals, negligible TTP presence.
Quetta: Local BLA insurgency, negligible TTP presence.
NWA: Protected by MMA enforced peace accord, preparations for Op under-way.

That much for your argument.

 

[SQ8]

Oh so its alright to have a political cell , but not counter threats like bla , ttp and sindhu desh liberation rats .. what a lame excuse




subdued TTP wouldnt that be a over statement so far karachi , quetta & N waziristan talibans remains un touched though

There is a double edged sword there..
If for eg, the ISI acts against them(which it does to a certain extent) ..it will be taken as the military acting against them..and hence the slogan of a "Punjabi Military" will come into play again. This will only provide more fuel to such groups.
Information on these groups is passed onto the regional police, but whether they act on it or not is another matter.

Those Taliban in Karachi, Quetta and N waziristan are mostly common people..
we as a nation are descending into extremism and violence. To discount it as "external" forces is to bury our heads in the sand.
This cannot be solved by an agency.. it has to be a nationwide responsibility to curb and thwart all extremist teachings from any mosque or any seminary.
Sadly.. for that you need cohesive religious leadership and a good understanding of religion not based on copy paste Mullahs or Muftis or Aalims(to the insult of the word as it is used for mere Primary pass people in Pakistan today).
Until you and I decide to act on these people, speak against them.. with the understanding of Quran and Sunnah with us.. This ccancer will only grow till it eats up half the country with it.. and then..the true enemy... to your east and west..will have won.

The political cell is a huge hoax, it's a fall back for politicians whose governments fail. They can't account for their poor performance so they blame the mysterious Political Cell of the ISI, that NEVER EXISTED.

There were agencies involved at different points at Pakistan's history under the directives of the leadership themselves..
but to sum up all agencies(FIA, CIA etc) as the ISI is fairly common for our political lot.

 

[Jango]

Funny to see on TV yesterday that the human rights violation for some people start and end at ISI and Army!! And that too Balochistan.

Somebody needs to give those few some knowledge about the people who are caught by ISI and then the stupid laws that make them go free!

BTW, Najam Sethi once said that while he was caught by civilian agencies and tortured, the ISI came in and took him with them, and that saved his life according to him, because the civilian police agencies would have killed him with the amount of torture. Don't know how true that is.

There were agencies involved at different points at Pakistan's history under the directives of the leadership themselves..
but to sum up all agencies(FIA, CIA etc) as the ISI is fairly common for our political lot.

agreed on this point. Sometimes the IB is mistaken as ISI, and most times, people on TV even say that it was MI which did it, although the case has nothing to do with the army and military setup.

 

[Bratva]

Ex DG ISI General Duraani on record stated in supreme court that Political does existed in ISI. Initiated by Bhutto. . . in 1990's there was initiative to close it down, but interior minister naseerullah babar verbally told asad durrani that on paper it will be closed but not practically. All said by General Asad Durrani. While in 2002 referendum. General Ehtasham Zameer ( now write regular columns in Jang news paper) than DG internal wing ISI was invovled in makin of PML-Q. It was a famous joke back than, Faisal Hayat said in NA that " Mey Apnay Zameer ki awaz par PML-Q join ki hay". . . . Moulana diesel jokingly said there that " app kay zameer ki awaz ya phr General zameer ki awaz par join ki hay"

And we all know the role of General kayani in the prepartion of NRO.General Pasha was also invloved in Politics.

 

[Ticker]

I don't care of ranking, all i know that ISI failed to take preventive measures to stop insurgency, they were sleeping when Terrorists took over almost complete province and we did military operation and millions were displaced and precious lives were lost, ISI is still struggling against TTP & BLA.

My attitude is a result of your actions! So if you don't like my attitude blame yourself! - OOs.


And how do you know, ISI failed.

The decision to respond rests with the government, not even the Army.

Don't start apportioning blame by being speculative and ignorant.

 

[Jango]

And we all know the role of General kayani in the prepartion of NRO.General Pasha was also invloved in Politics.

That's why he has been in office for so long!

 

[Icarus]

That's why he has been in office for so long!

He has been in office for so long because we are in a state of war.

 

[Jango]

He has been in office for so long because we are in a state of war.

....in addition to having a big hand before the elections in the NRO and others.

 

[Icarus]

....in addition to having a big hand before the elections in the NRO and others.

How did you figure that? I don't think Kiyani would have any stakes in the NRO.

 

[Jango]

How did you figure that? I don't think Kiyani would have any stakes in the NRO.

It was on the behalf of Musharraf. Kayani was the architect of this whole idea. Mush proposed it, Kayani made it.