Why Doesn't Pakistan Issue MMRCA Tender?

[desiman]

I would ask people here to use their gray cells a little and understand what the report said.

$8 billion for 250 JF-17 = $32 million per aircraft.

whereas the entire costs of a new JF-17 is $15 million.

Are you trying to justify that you are spending $32 million on just avionics on a plane that itself cost $15 million???

The deal for AVIONICS was just worth $1.6 billion and not $8 billion as many would like to believe.

The $8 billion was total for all the deals which are in negotiation or being done at the moment.

At $1.6 billion the amount comes up to be $6.4 million per aircraft which seems to be more reasonable.

That is what i have been trying to say for so long but people dont want to listen lol Nice one. Its not even procurement, its just common sense lol

 

[niaz]

Well there has been very bad news lately.With the delay/Cancellation of JF-17 French Avionics.

But one thing that has surprised me very much is the worth of the Contract.I mean 6 Billion Euros that translates into 8 Billion Dollars.

I mean this is very much money.I never even dreamed of PAF having so much money.

So the Question is why Doesn't Pakistan Issue a MMRCA like tender.I mean just put 2-3 billion Dollars more and result would be like a MMRCA tender.I mean if India can buy 126 Euro fighters for 11 Billion Dollars so why can't we buy EF too.I mean 126 EF would surely better than 400 Thunders.What you guys think?

Let us first read the article again:

Quote
PARIS: France's plan to sell 1.2 billion euro ($1.6 billion) worth of military equipment for Pakistan's JF-17 combat aircraft has been held up, a source at President Nicolas Sarkozy's office said on Friday.
Newspaper Le Monde had reported earlier that France decided to suspend the sale of electronics and missiles -- the first section of a 6 billion euro contract -- under pressure from India and uncertainty over Pakistan's finances.
“It's a deal that's not ready from the Pakistani side,” the source said, without giving further details. “For now, the state of the dossier doesn't allow us to carry on with it.”
A consortium made up of French company ATE, arms group Thales <TCFP.PA> and missile manufacturer MBDA was supposed to produce the equipment, Le Monde said. Thales declined to comment.
France was also worried over insufficient protection of its technology, with Pakistan pushing to assemble the equipment on its soil, the paper said.
In February, MBDA said it planned to upgrade India's Mirage 2000 fighters and was looking to expand in India.&#8212;Reuters
Unquote.

It is for all to see that article is referring to 1.2-bilion Euros only. Pakistan is also discussing with France for submarines and may be additional mine hunters. Where does it say that entire 6-billion euros is for the Airforce?
One of the reasons sighted is &#8220;uncertainty over Pakistan&#8217;s Finances&#8221;. This is probably the only and the real reason.

Any one who has knowledge of large defense deals would know that very seldom countries dole out &#8220;Cash&#8221; per say. Nearly all cases involve financing thru soft loans and offsets. The payments are also normally spread over many years.

I have a fair Knowledge of the financing of the Al Yamamah -1, wherein 72 Tornados were supplied to Saudi Arabia in a multi billion pound deal. The deal included training, maintenance, missiles and ordinance; actual price was never officially revealed.

Thus an extremely rich country such as Saudi Arabia did not pay in cash but elected to pay in the form of oil. Entire quantity was sold to Shell by BAE on back to back basis. The payment was spread over a 10 year period; about the same time as the delivery of the aircrafts (first delivery started in 1987). UK gov't provided 1-billion pound guarantee to the BAE as a safeguard against possible default/cancellation by the Saudis.

This is to illustrate that financing of major defense contracts is no simple matter. Majority of Pakistan&#8217;s defense acquisitions are either thru US FMS program or thru Chinese gov't soft term loans. French never care too much about political pressure; French government may not be willing to provide financial guarantees. IMO the Indian pressure cited as one the reasons is only a conjecture by Le Monde.

To assume that PAF already has $8-billions and putting aside another $2-3 billions to issue a tender for$11-billion is nothing but a flight of fancy. Finally, on what authority can you claim that 126 EF are better than 400 Thunders?

 

[Moscow]

Finally, on what authority can you claim that 126 EF are better than 400 Thunders?

exactly the obsession with anything western is superior must go

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Pakistans reserves are around 15 billion$$ not 10-12 billion....Few days back it was 16 billion$.

 

[pak-yes]

Finally, on what authority can you claim that 126 EF are better than 400 Thunders?

So,it means that 126EF wouldn't be better than 400 Thunders.

 

[aks]

I would ask people here to use their gray cells a little and understand what the report said.

$8 billion for 250 JF-17 = $32 million per aircraft.

whereas the entire costs of a new JF-17 is $15 million.

Are you trying to justify that you are spending $32 million on just avionics on a plane that itself cost $15 million???

The deal for AVIONICS was just worth $1.6 billion and not $8 billion as many would like to believe.

The $8 billion was total for all the deals which are in negotiation or being done at the moment.

At $1.6 billion the amount comes up to be $6.4 million per aircraft which seems to be more reasonable.

These indians knows more than us

 

[Moscow]

So,it means that 126EF wouldn't be better than 400 Thunders.

there are high chances that 3 efficient thunders can match 1 EF isnt it

 

[pak-yes]

there are high chances that 3 efficient thunders can match 1 EF isnt it

Wow now that's a big statement.

 

[ramu]

So far so good, Air Force is going good. Any out of the box move will be after indian mrca.

PAF future is secure. Allow me list things PAF will look into.

China is actively working on smaller and larger AWACS and AEW&C
Active work on small and large cargo planes
Active work on advance trainers for next generation fighters
Active work on FC-20/J-10B
Active work on AESA radars
ground radars
SAMs
Active work on derivative of SU-27/su-30 that is J-11B/C/D (i'm betting by 2015 not even russians can stop China from marketing it)
Active work on JXX
Active work on Air tankers
Inshort I don't see Pakistan is going to have any troubles with procurements of all these in the future Chinese are good with project timings as well as their products qualities are far better than russians because they have trends to follow North American Standards and that is a good approach.

Feel safe from western harassment.
in Future we'll get
Air tankers
AWACS/AEW&C
Trainers/advance Trainers
FC-20
JXX
joint work on blk 3 FC-1/JF-17
Cargo Planes
ground radars
SAMs

I think i've explained it in simple words.

I think the Chinese economy cannot support PAF against the backdrop of Indian defense spending and allocation in the future and in the long run. Pakistan has to come up with enough funds to buy equipment from China.

With all due respect to luftwaffe :
As long as Pakistan does not solve domestic issues and hurdles in its economy, it is unlikely that a large scale modernization is economically viable.

luftwaffe, I have read many of your posts in the past and I must say, I enjoy reading your posts. Keep posting ...

 

[ramu]

Why these Indians involve themselves in our debates like they are very important to us and like we need them

Do you know that this is a forum ?
Define "öur"debates

 

[jagjitnatt]

These indians knows more than us

In this case, YES.

Read niaz's statement just a few posts up. He has described it pretty good.

 

[ameer219]

Pakistans reserves are around 15 billion$$ not 10-12 billion....Few days back it was 16 billion$.

Dude you have a linked to that? on March 29th the reserves stood at 14.812billion USD, and just reached 15billion according to Dawn, in one of its articles

 

[ramu]

In this case, YES.

Read niaz's statement just a few posts up. He has described it pretty good.

Jagjit, I was surprised at the $8B figure and was thinking why Pak was spending such a lot of money on French avionics. Thanks for clearing this. Saved me a few mins on Google for sure !

 

[Myth_buster_1]

PAF has already evaluated EF, Rafale, Gripen and F-18 long time ago. THe IAF MRCA tender is noting but political play card to gain world wide defence market attention that hey India has got tones of money to spend.
Back in early 90s when UAE released a tender for 80 advance MRCAs they looked at all the potential platforms evaluated on the papers and only 2 were chosen, the Rafale and F-16 block 60. Then finally F-16 was chosen without making such a hype in european market.

 

[Comet]

Pakistans reserves are around 15 billion$$ not 10-12 billion....Few days back it was 16 billion$.

These are the reserves of Foreign exchange and are used to buy Oil etc. We cannot take this money and buy military hardware.