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Why China paid $1trillion to US but doesn't pay a dime to the Pak govt?

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You have summarised what I've been saying all over this thread.

But you are bound to be taken more seriously.

I guess that's got more to do with my flags than my posts.

;)

You make a good point, people become highly defensive when someone they consider a competitor points out anything that may be negative. I agree with you, unfortunately many people from my own nation would rather overlook the harsh reality of Pakistan's place in the world today.
 
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if Chinese bails out Pakistan of the debt and in return a working commission/group is create to over see the areas of interest and investment and a guaranteed access is given to Chinese companies in all those fields would make sure both sides have a positive out come for their economies. This how it took place in North America.

So China gets to bail out Pakistan in return for a commission ?? Are you serious?? God helps those who help themselves and if Pakistan want Chinese investment they have to show not just China but any investor that Pakistanis have changed their orientation from Jihad to doing business - and when Pakistani business begins investing, so will others.

And Pakistani business will not invest unless their capital and investments are respected and PROTECTED -- that means no terror, no ethnic BS, and it means laws and courts that will protect them - when Pakistan does this, the world will want to come - the exploitation of hydrocarbon potential (without Baluchi Sardras collective rent and using the investment as a patronage tool) the coal reserves, the liberalizing of all industry particularly power generation and distribution, the dredging and use of the Indus itself, the development of the road infrastructure and reservoirs, the creation in Baluchistan of arable lands and production of wheat for the Chinese markets - the scope is certainly there.
 
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The worth of the Pakistan China relationship is up to them to decide, surely, right? However, the question as to why there is not more investment is interesting - clearly the Pakistanis are deficient in terms of attracting more investment not just from China but the world and the most important thing is that if Pakistanis are not willing to invest in Pakistan in greater amounts, why should others?

OK, now for a proper discussion.

China does not like the idea of giving "aid". This paternalistic behaviour, is seen as a failed policy of the developed world, and has been without much success. Instead, it has led to a "crutch" mentality in places like Africa. And of course, China is still a country with low per-capita income, and we can't donate large sums without damaging our average standard of living.

But for the sake of argument, let's say that the OP's proposition is carried out, and China essentially "erases" Pakistan's national debt. Which is no small feat.

What will Zardari do? Like a problem gambler, his underlying behaviour will not change, and Pakistan will quickly go back into the position it had before, of being under large amounts of debt.

Aid money is essentially a "quick-fix" solution, and does not solve the underlying problem, which is inefficient administration.

To solve the underlying problem, Pakistan's political system needs to appoint administrators based on merit, not for political reasons. As a stop-gap solution, I also think China needs to loan some of our administrators to Pakistan, at least on a short-term basis.
 
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To Luftwaffe:

Erasing Pakistan's national debt won't mean anything if the same administrators (like Zardari) remain in place.

For a true "clean slate", the entire political system of Pakistan needs to be reformed, only then will such a measure have a long-term positive effect.
 
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Dragon

Spot on -- could not agree more -- but we are a very small minority. PPP government, actually any Pakistani government are generally very weak (you already know the internal dynamic with the army) and these governments therefore use patronage as a tool for gaining political support - Pakistanis basically have no choice but to accept this reality.

You say China does not like the idea of "aid" - bravo - but in Pakistan, the idea that one can stand on their own feet, is actually a alien idea - people give it lip service but they no longer believe it - they have seen the government, particularly the PPP steal their property and basically make someone else's property their own - so for Pakistanis, in their experience, politics is everything.

Can such a polity be a good candidate for further investment?

China should in my opinion, NEVER, bail out, Never give "aid" to Pakistan - because this is the fastest way to destroy the relationship between the two.
 
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OK, now for a proper discussion.

China does not like the idea of giving "aid". This paternalistic behaviour, is seen as a failed policy of the developed world, and has been without much success. Instead, it has led to a "crutch" mentality in places like Africa. And of course, China is still a country with low per-capita income, and we can't donate large sums without damaging our average standard of living.

But for the sake of argument, let's say that the OP's proposition is carried out, and China essentially "erases" Pakistan's national debt. Which is no small feat.

What will Zardari do? Like a problem gambler, his underlying behaviour will not change, and Pakistan will quickly go back into the position it had before, of being under large amounts of debt.

Aid money is essentially a "quick-fix" solution, and does not solve the underlying problem, which is inefficient administration.

To solve the underlying problem, Pakistan's political system needs to appoint administrators based on merit, not for political reasons. As a stop-gap solution, I also think China needs to loan some of our administrators to Pakistan, at least on a short-term basis.

I agreed with you. China has also look after her own people. It is their hard earned money and everyone would like to invest their money where it is safe and having high rate of return.

Pakistan has to walked her own way to reach her manzil. Stop gap measure is no long term solution. Political and economic reforms are the order of the day. See IMF had also snubbed you because of lack of reforms. It will have short term implications but you will be able to create strong foundation for the future. I believe pakistan has enough talent and resources to walk her own. You have to channelize that energy properly by investing in socio-economic reforms. I wish you all the best.
 
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To Luftwaffe:

Erasing Pakistan's national debt won't mean anything if the same administrators (like Zardari) remain in place.
For a true "clean slate", the entire political system of Pakistan needs to be reformed, only then will such a measure have a long-term positive effect.

To all members participating, I am not suggesting or giving a finale thoughts, I have opened this thread for discussion to get meaning out of it.

I do not and cannot put any last words regarding the situation.
 
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Great question,Unfortunately it's a sure shot bait for trolls(Exhibit A-Look at the unrelated comments.I rest my case!).

Also,it's structured poorly.Buying into America's debt AKA purchasing American Treasury bills isn't considered as "bailing it out". It is not a loan per se but a fixed investment with guaranteed returns.The primary reasons that countries with surplus foreign reserves usually invest in US Treasury bills;

A.The world reserve currency is US Dollars.It's an investment by default in many ways rather than by choice.

B.It's the safest financial instrument on the planet(At least until recently :-))

C. It offers a great mix between profitability and security as compared to alternatives.

Even at the unlikely situation that would arise with China selling off US bills it holds,It would still find buyers in the market.

The question would've been better served in analyzing what transpired between the United States and Pakistan that has shaken their historic ties and what role can China play to assist Pakistan on the road to it's stability.I could offer my take on it but I don't want to indulge trolls leading to my hands as well as my head to hurt!
 
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I'll state the obvious:

East Asians are stupid white loving mental slaves. We may have a high IQ but that doesn't matter for sh!t when we're all brainwashed. China and Vietnam are merely mental slaves. Korea and Japan are literal slaves. And we pretend to be superior to each other to ease the pain of slavery.
 
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China has invested in USA and they are investing in Pakistan as well. If you think the Chinese should hand overe their hard earned cash on a silver platter to Pakistan, sorry tht is wishful thinking and not virtues of friendship. I dont support china giving any kind of financial assitance to Pakistan government especially zardari government. They should invest the money on Pakistan people instead.
 
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I'll state the obvious:

East Asians are stupid white loving mental slaves. We may have a high IQ but that doesn't matter for sh!t when we're all brainwashed. China and Vietnam are merely mental slaves. Korea and Japan are literal slaves. And we pretend to be superior to each other to ease the pain of slavery.

Goodness! What this about?
 
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So you say you want investment, eh?



Pre-Eid sales fall by 70% due to killing spree
By Tanveer Sher

KARACHI: In the wake of uncertain law and order situation and incessant cycle of violence in Karachi, Pre-Eid sales in major markets and shopping centres in the port city nose-dived to around 70 percent of last year sales.

Amid the third week of holy month of Ramazan, dismal sales of male and female garments, shoes, wide varieties of clothes of all ages of children ranging from 3 to 13 years, cosmetics and many other items, have spelled gloom for an overwhelming majority of traders and businessmen, who had invested billions of rupees in the hope of capturing seasonal hike in sales.

With no end in sight of the current wave of violence, which has so far claimed more than 70 lives during last three to four days, majority of shopkeepers and traders at some big markets expressed pessimism over better sales prospects before the Eid.

Some of the traders replying to a question of the scribe claimed that pre-Eid sales had started gaining momentum from 10th of Ramazan sparking a ray of hope of better business prospects for them until the end of the holy month.

The unexpected surge, however, in violence in some parts of Karachi during the last four to five days coupled with a menace of steep rise in extortion had shattered all their hopes and optimism leaving them at the mercy of terrorists and extortionists.

Atiq Mir, Chairman of Alliance for Market Association, Karachi expressing his disgust over the prevailing law and order situation warned to pull shutters of all Karachi markets if the government failed to act promptly and take measure to reverse the deteriorating situation.

“We are left with no choice but to close down our trades as present critical situation have left no option for us,” Mir said.

Suspension of large-scale trade would not only hurt interests of traders but national exchequer would also eventually suffer colossal financial losses. In the holy month of Ramazan an additional amount of trade of Rs 40 had been anticipated, which would have definitely strengthened the national kitty.

Replying to another question, Mir said that majority of Karachi markets wore a deserted look as buyers have been reluctant to visit them for the fear of potential violence putting their lives at risk.

In response to a question, he said even on Friday, when the situation was returning to normalcy, the old city area was forcibly shut down by some unscrupulous elements, which caused an estimated staggering loss of Rs one billion to the national exchequer.

Mir blamed that the present government had squarely failed to discharge its duty to restore law and order in the port city as it has become a party in the ongoing cycle of violence giving rise to a dangerous trend.

Furthermore, the administration has also failed miserably to control rampant cycle of extortion in Karachi markets spelling financial hardship for traders.


China says US eco remains ‘resilient’

BEIJING: China’s leader-in-waiting said America’s economy was “highly resilient” but stressed the need to restore confidence in global markets Friday, after holding talks with the visiting US vice-president.

Xi Jinping, who is widely expected to be named as the country’s next leader in 2012, made the comments during a five-day visit to China by Joe Biden, who is trying to shore up the reputation of his country’s battered economy in Asia.

China is the largest foreign holder of US debt and Biden, who will hold talks with Chinese President Hu Jintao later Friday, is visiting after a historic downgrade of the US credit rating earlier this month.

“The US economy is highly resilient and has a strong capacity of self repair. We believe the US economy will achieve even better development as it rises to challenges,” Vice President Xi told a roundtable of American and Chinese business leaders.

Xi also stressed that China’s economy — which is shifting towards a greater reliance on domestic demand — would be a boon for the United States.

“In the next five years, China is expected to import over $8 trillion of commodities and by 2015, total retail sales are expected to reach 32 trillion yuan ($5 trillion),” he said.

“That will create greater business opportunities for American businesses.”

Xi also stressed the need to restore confidence in the global markets, as stock markets plummeted after Wall Street investment bank Morgan Stanley warned that the US and eurozone economies were close to a double-dip recession. “Destabilising factors confronting world recovery have intensified, posing new challenges to economic growth and the businesses of our two countries,” he said.

“Under such circumstances, what is most important is to reinforce confidence, as confidence is more precious than gold.”

Xi said China would “strike a proper balance between fast and steady growth, adjustment of economic structure and managing inflation expectations”, adding his country’s booming economy would not suffer a “hard landing.” Beijing has been struggling to tame inflation, which last month hit a three-year high, fuelling international concerns about instability in the Chinese economy at a time of renewed global financial peril.

Xi also called on the United States to ease trade restrictions and provide for fair treatment of Chinese firms, pledging that Beijing remained committed to opening up its markets.

The United States and China “should not politicise or sensationalise trade issues”, he added.

Biden’s talks with Hu and Premier Wen Jiabao later Friday will take place against a backdrop of intense criticism in China over Washington’s handling of the debt crisis.
afp
 
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Well China has invested into US but purchasing commodities , the 1-2 trillion dollars are investments , which will return China 3-4 Trillion dollar return, and also better ties with US in term of world politics and business leverage

China on other hand also contributes to Pakistan's development but China has made it clear that they do not like to offer free ride
I think we respect china on that stance because we also Pakistani prefer to stand on our feet , and any help we get from China is always appreciated

a) Training of engineers
b) Setting up of infrastructure
c) Motor projects in Pakistan , getting rid of old vehicles and getting them replaced with new motors
d) Dams construction projects
e) Defense projects
f) Railway projects
g) Telecommunication projects
h) Sett-elite launches
i) IT collaboratoin
j) Trade

What China gives Pakistan is "Self Respect" and helping brothers to stand on their feet

We understand corruption is great with likes of Zardari , Bilawal , Nawaz , Altaf, xyz but the main thing is China has alwasy stood with Pakistani brothers

And we honor our friendship its more then Trillion Dollars

Think about it our debt is 75 billion dollars - my friend our economy can make us 500 billion and 1 trillion on our own power if we hang our own politicians by throat

If China gives us 75 billion loan guess what will our Politicians will do ? Yes you guessed it factories in Swiss , homes in UK and private jet liners for Bilawal

Be thankful we have a friend as China as true friendship is hard to come by these days

I agree 100% with Chinese decision WORK FOR YOUR BILLIONS approach to our politicians because our politicians are crooks and thieves and untill they are credible I agree 100% with china's decision to not outright donate large sums but invest in infrastructure, and defence and economic projects to help people of Pakistan
 
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