Why can't the PA kill Baitullah Mehsud, Qari Hussain, Faqir Muhammad...

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

S-2,

I think the issue is one of perception, one which I raised with you during our earlier discussions on the Drug trade.

The perception largely is that, regardless of which nation is in charge of what district in Afghanistan, it is a US led and controlled effort, and you have complete authority and should be able to bring the others to task for not doing their 'job'.

The burdens of being the most powerful country on earth.

 

[S-2]

saadahmed,

The U.N. as part of the 2001 Bonn Accords on Afghanistan, gave the lead to Great Britain. We contribute $800m to that effort. In those provinces under our military control, we've shown dramatic improvement.

saadahmed, five provinces produce 147,000 of that 159,000 total. FIVE. Helmand, Farah, Kandahar, Oruzgan, and Nimroz in that descending order. Helmand is first at 103,000 hectares. Second is Farah with 15,000 hectares. Notice a difference?

Helmand is British controlled. Kandahar is Canadian controlled. Oruzgan is Dutch controlled. I don't know who's working Nimroz or Farah but it's not America.

We've burned fields and been VEHEMENTLY criticized by our British cousins. So we've tried other methods. The point is, we've tried and done something about it in those areas under our control.

This isn't an American issue. We seem to be finding results. Others aren't.

 

[notsuperstitious]

Only god knows what is going on. From what i have been told he has sent a team of 20 suicide bombers to spread bloodshed in our cities. The islamabad blast was the work of this dirty Indian slave and his chaylay. His elimination is an absolute must for Pakistan but we have no clue why he is not being eliminated and why no action has been taken in this regard.

I think u r contradicting yourself here. if he's a 'dirty indian slave' ( i don't even expect civility when mentioning india here from the 'true nationalists' ), then the pak army would have got him killed quickly like Akbar Bugti. now what makes more sense, that an indian supported terrorist is enjying PA's protection or he has some inside help???

 

[S-2]

"Can I ask you what is the American resistance to not fencing and mining the PakAfghan border all along its 2400 KM,and building checkposts so that cross border movement is monitored."

Araz,

My first questions are who is paying for this and along which side of the border is this fence and minefield to be laid?

You've indicated the length to be addressed. It is considerable. How deep would you like such a minefield? Half a kilometer? That's only 500 meters. Secondly, my military training suggests you never plant a minefield that isn't under continuous observation and direct fire. That's a lot of space to be cleared and then manned. Without such, true professionals will clear your fields and open gaps. Like gun laws, only the innocent would suffer as the criminals continue to march.

America can't now, Araz, get the P.A./F.C. to provide manning for all six coordintion centers. Torkum was a struggle by itself. I fear that Pakistan would never find the forces necessary to man your entire border. To date that's proven impossible.

Last, I find the notion of mining particularly cruel to a people that are still largely confined to the animals and their own feet for mobility and whom have traditionally wandered these hills without regard.

I don't find this to be a real prudent approach and seems technical very, very difficult to establish and just as hard to maintain.

Thanks.

 

[S-2]

"The perception largely is that, regardless of which nation is in charge of what district in Afghanistan, it is a US led and controlled effort, and you have complete authority and should be able to bring the others to task for not doing their 'job'."

Iraq was a collective failure borne of America's mis-management. Consider that for a tiny moment. Then consider that as matters got worse, more nations left. Finally the Brits in a small enclave and us-and matters began to reverse themselves.

Make no mistake, in quiet places we received help such as Australian SAS but it was our show-absolutely no question. And it's reversing itself.

We've an OEF mission but the truth remains that the hunt for OBL IS restricted to SOF forces (and not just ours but A LOT of folks) at this point. An appropriate mission for snake-eaters. Otherwise our forces, like everybody else's, are engaged in security-related issues to include training.

It is a collective effort under the U.N. to raise forth a nation and will require sacrifice from many in some capacity for a very long time to be successful-whether money, men and/or material.

My point is this-on matters small and large for collective efforts to succeed we've got to rationalize objectives and means while synchronizing our message whether training soldiers or conducting state-to-state diplomacy. We lack coherance in our collective actions, small and large for the obvious reasons of nat'l sentiment.

It is frictious, burdensome, and imposes huge opportunity costs to efforts already maligned of effectively used dollars through graft, corruption, and warfare. With all that happens to our efforts from without, western nations continue to add to the burden by the manner in which we conduct collective security. It's been a mess since Suez in 1956 and has never improved anywhere in the world. Most of our hot spots in 1947, whether Cyprus, Palestine, Kashmir, or North Korea remain flashpoints.

When people say quagmire, I first think of our own organizations. I do wonder what would happen if our allies abandoned us in the next couple of years but opened up their checkbooks. There might be more coherance and I'm sure we'd be happy to show our books to them on...reimbursement.

 

[Shiny Capstar]

saadahmed,

The U.N. as part of the 2001 Bonn Accords on Afghanistan, gave the lead to Great Britain. We contribute $800m to that effort. In those provinces under our military control, we've shown dramatic improvement.

saadahmed, five provinces produce 147,000 of that 159,000 total. FIVE. Helmand, Farah, Kandahar, Oruzgan, and Nimroz in that descending order. Helmand is first at 103,000 hectares. Second is Farah with 15,000 hectares. Notice a difference?

Helmand is British controlled. Kandahar is Canadian controlled. Oruzgan is Dutch controlled. I don't know who's working Nimroz or Farah but it's not America.

We've burned fields and been VEHEMENTLY criticized by our British cousins. So we've tried other methods. The point is, we've tried and done something about it in those areas under our control.

This isn't an American issue. We seem to be finding results. Others aren't.

It wouldn't be that hard to burn a lot of the poppy fields if we were told to, but we are told not to by the powers that be. Probably because we could kiss what cooperation we get from the locals goodbye if we went and destroyed their livelihood. In those areas of Helmand where the fields were burnt the locals just planted more and basically stopped talking to our people.
We have different methods to the US, with both us and them criticising the others methods and moaning for the resources to do it our way properly.

Personally I would be happy to just buy the poppies off the Afghans directly (we should be able to out price the Taliban in this), use what we can medically and burn the rest. The farmers wont care what we do with it as long as they get their money. It would improve their view of us and get a bit of stimulation into their local economies. After we have got all those farmers who are going to sell to us selling to us by all means burn the crops of those that wont sell to us (or like minded nations/groups) and so are probably selling to the Taliban. Get more locals onside and cut some of the Taliban funding, then ween the farmers onto more acceptable crops. Not exactly the quick fix that burning all the poppies we can find gives, but it has its own benefits. Shame a scheme like this would never happen with the current will being shown on this matter.

(There are probably a lot of things I have missed out and a fair few errors or typos, but I am currently not the most awake person around. Which is a bit of understatement to be honest)

 

[Kharian_Beast]

Good point Captstar.

Legalize it, time to recognize it.

Then you have oversight, tax revenue, controls, and you keep the money out of the hands of private militias and pirates and keep it from being sent abroad and to Pakistan to be turned into heroin and other evils.

 

[S-2]

"We have different methods to the US..."

You misunderstand and I knew you would. Let me say this first. We aren't burning fields. We've stopped that some time ago and are adhering to the mandated program's goals. I agree with you that it's needlessly alienating in the absence of a better cash crop. Secondly, the reversals experienced in many areas can easily be reversed again. Some reduction in planted hectares arose to drought-related difficulties. That's good but it also affected wheat and food costs are killing farmers who've given up opium and trying to survive on food crops that aren't yielding out.

So for whatever success we're achieving, nothing (as usual) is guaranteed without firmly monitoring and maintaining momentum. Meanwhile, there's the south...

There are differences in the south that have made the situation what it is and has nothing to do with methods and everything to do with size of your A.O. and the resources with which you have at your disposal.

I refer you to the ICOS map here. Why it highlights the 2007 map, I don't know, but please double-click the 2008 map to the right.

It highlights incidents throughout the nation and grades their severity. Regardless of how some would posture "taliban control" the facts remain as Major General Mart de Kruif, commander RC-SOUTH recently observed-wherever he travels throughout the south, the over-riding perception he leaves with is the vast emptiness of most of the land, and he is correct.

It's empty, as you know, except where it's not. Where's that? The green zones in Kandahar, Helmand, and Oruzgan. Find flowing water and you'll find the people. How many people? As many as you might find in the Kabul-Jalalabad axis. So what do we notice from our map?

That we've two real loci of trouble and it's those two large though discrete areas. One of these two areas is considerably better resourced and really covers less terrain. We face a lot of serious TICs on the eastern border but a portion of it's intensity is determined by the concentration of resources along a relatively smaller area.

You have less troops and more ground to cover. It's that simple. Helmand, alone, is ferkin' huge. You haven't been south of Garmsir, but one look at a map shows names like Musa Qala, Lashkar Gar, Sangin, and Garmsir village-all hot as hell at one time or another and plenty to have kept you gainfully occupied since 2006.

Here's the UNODC 2008 Executive Survey For Afghanistan Opium-

Afghan Opium Survey-2008

You and I both know we're heading south this spring and summer. Chaobaum Armour posted this elsewhere the other day. Your guys are already at it, with the Royal Marines and the ANA running a significant reconnaissance-in-force south the other day-

Royal Marines Take On Taliban In The Fish Hook-MoD

That's a long way south and key is "reconnaissance-in-force". Plenty was turned up and they'll be back. We'll likely be there to help soon. I sure hope so.

Dude, you know where those 103,000 hectares are-they're south of Garmsir. It makes all the sense in the world, is no fault of yours, and I'm not blaming you.

I'm just saying we're doing the best we can and having some results. Whether it stays that way or not remains to be seen and whether we can help make a difference in Helmand or not also remains to be seen.

Finally, I agee with you. I've long advocated we buy it at above-market price and do so through certified UNODC or ISAF military officers. You've got to register your fields and submit to a crop analysis when planting. We come by to collect and the dope better be there or we now know it's gone to somebody else. BAD farmer.

Good farmer gets above-market price at the doorstep for not selling his dope to the bad guys. Bust bad farmer. Alternatively, ARM these farmers and establisha cooperative to protect their crops.

Any fields not registered for survey during planting season-eradicate it.

 

[thepatariotic]

You have Osama's whereabouts as well ?? I think there is a bounty on him ![/QUOT

I have spent time with them

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

if they knew where he was, he would have been pig-meat by now. The terrain is very tricky. And he obviously has informants on the ground who monitor when security forces are closeby.

It is too bad that when Pakistani reporters were interviewing him, they didnt have any fancy guns disguised as cameras.


In all honesty, killing Baitullah Mehsud wouldnt solve the issues. The real issues are cutting the financial/logistics/supply chain of taleban.


We should slowly remove the Afghan refugees. They are a huge drain. We should also mine the border, and do a better job to monitor movements. Despite the high costs and risks, we should have more gunships patrolling the areas --especially Mohmand, South Waziristan, Khyber Agency and Lower Kurram.

It amazes me how we ourselves are manufacturing UAVs, yet we arent using them. This is a guerilla war. It must be fought using guerilla tactics.

We need a strong government that can establish writ in the tribal areas. This is the only solution.

But it is criminal for people not to acknowledge the sacrifices and hard work of Pakistan's Army. They have had many successes in this fight. May sanity and order prevail Inshallah.

 

[S-2]

"May sanity and order prevail Inshallah."

With all due respect, may I ask that you leave God out of it. This is work for man and there's no wishing for sanity and order to prevail.

It'll happen by the hard work and devotion of those P.A. men should your government ever decide to honor itself and reclaim your lands.

As a citizen of a foreign nation I can only pray for that day. YOU, though, can mobilize your citizenry to demand this of your government...and must.

Abu Zolfiqar, you better than most probably understand the quid pro quo that's previously existed between the GoP and the tribes. That relationship and agreement (AND LAWS) have been SHATTERED by a reality which neither parties ever imagined.

Your tribal leaderships have been decimated by a new order which has arisen in a new way. The F.C. are, and shall remain for some time inadequate to the threat. The old rules no longer apply and your army is badly needed.

 

[Jihad]

It extremely annoys me and pisses me off to the max when I see Baitullah Mesud or another extremist leader give interviews to journalists or talk as if he is some big shot.
This man is targeting innocent Pakistani civilians, I last read that he sent a squad of suicide bombers to major Pakistani cities, I mean, what the hell, who does he think he is?
We can defend ourselves from India but we can't take this son of a ****** down who is responsible for leading and commanding Uzbeks, Afghans, Pakistanis and so fort for the killing of Pakistani civilians or western/Chinese civilians inside Pakistan?
How on earth do journalists get acces to hem and are allowed to freely interview him while our army still hasn't been able to take him down?
You got to take out the key figures in order to dismantle this whole terrorist scum network, if a drone strike takes him out, I will personally apologise to the likes of S-2 and others who were in favor of these strikes and I wasn't, because this man needs to be killed, he is in Pakistan, plotting and planning attacks against Pakistani institutions and civilians, we know it, but yet we can't get a hold of him, it's a shame and these chiefs deserve death for everything they've caused, for the mindsets they have supported and created, for the brainwashing of young minds they have caused, they ought to be destroyed and our Army together with the U.S. Army should extensively work together and share as much intel as possible to take these individuals out.

 

[Captain03]

they are not walking around freely or peacefully
they are in hiding or in an area where the taliban is in control