Who has the strongest Land Forces in ME?

[Aramagedon]

Countries to consider:

Egypt
Israel
Turkey

Iran is out because too outdated equipment. Rest not even close.

Egypt
+ battle experience, large and modern tank fleet, strong air defence, big man power pool
- during the wars commanders showed very little initiatiave, misinformed their higher commanders this resulted in very poor offensive capabilities and reaction to changed situation.

Israel
+ most experienced in all types of war: conventional, blitzkriegs, large scale tank battles, urban warfare, combining forces, UAV coordination etc... High quality of personnel (in Israel bulk of the combat units are people from middle-high class, in other ME countries they tend to avoid army), modern equipment, including some unique for Israel like long range ATGM, APS. Most developed indigenous industry.
- small man power pool (needs to rely on reserves), high public sensitivity to casualties.

Turkey
+ large NATO standard army, big man power pool.
- equipment mostly old, virtually no conventional war experience.

I ignore your comment about Iran but rest of your comment is good.

 

[Djinn]

Voted for Turkey.

 

[Osmanovic]

Turkey could have bought stuff off of the shelve but it was smart and is now producing these, not many middle eastern countries have this capability.

Altay

Tulpar

Arma

Cobra 2

FNSS Tracked Vehicle Family

FNSS SAMUR

Korkut SPAAG left and Hisar A right

Hisar O

 

[Osmanovic]

Produced in Turkey

BMC Kirpi

T-155 Firtina 155mm with loading vehicle:

Panter 155mm

TR-122 Sakarya

TR-300 Kasirga

\

View attachment 235643

Light Towed 105mm

Mortar Carrier

T-129

 

[BLACKEAGLE]

Countries to consider:

Egypt
Israel
Turkey

Iran is out because too outdated equipment. Rest not even close.

Egypt
+ battle experience, large and modern tank fleet, strong air defence, big man power pool
- during the wars commanders showed very little initiatiave, misinformed their higher commanders this resulted in very poor offensive capabilities and reaction to changed situation.

Based on what wars? The ones happened four decades ago?

 

[Amun]

Countries to consider:

Egypt
Israel
Turkey

Iran is out because too outdated equipment. Rest not even close.

Egypt
+ battle experience, large and modern tank fleet, strong air defence, big man power pool
- during the wars commanders showed very little initiatiave, misinformed their higher commanders this resulted in very poor offensive capabilities and reaction to changed situation.

Israel
+ most experienced in all types of war: conventional, blitzkriegs, large scale tank battles, urban warfare, combining forces, UAV coordination etc... High quality of personnel (in Israel bulk of the combat units are people from middle-high class, in other ME countries they tend to avoid army), modern equipment, including some unique for Israel like long range ATGM, APS. Most developed indigenous industry.
- small man power pool (needs to rely on reserves), high public sensitivity to casualties.

What wars man..!? 1973. ?!?
And what experience in all types of war Israel Has...?! Like what Hezbullah did a few years ago ?!

I wander how could most of People vote for Turkey and Israel....other talking about aircrafts and ships....we are in a military forum...and with little search you will figure out what.....Egypt ground force is much more powerful in ME followed by Israel and Turkey....others are far behind.

 

[Hell NO]

Countries to consider:

Egypt
Israel
Turkey

Iran is out because too outdated equipment. Rest not even close.

Egypt
+ battle experience, large and modern tank fleet, strong air defence, big man power pool
- during the wars commanders showed very little initiatiave, misinformed their higher commanders this resulted in very poor offensive capabilities and reaction to changed situation.

Israel
+ most experienced in all types of war: conventional, blitzkriegs, large scale tank battles, urban warfare, combining forces, UAV coordination etc... High quality of personnel (in Israel bulk of the combat units are people from middle-high class, in other ME countries they tend to avoid army), modern equipment, including some unique for Israel like long range ATGM, APS. Most developed indigenous industry.
- small man power pool (needs to rely on reserves), high public sensitivity to casualties.

Turkey
+ large NATO standard army, big man power pool.
- equipment mostly old, virtually no conventional war experience.

I agree with you
but you must understand
that 1968 defeat was caused by the israeli air superiority so it wouldn't be fair for a ground force without air defance to fight a desert war even if they had the best commanders.
1973 win (October /Yom kepor ) shows what the egyptain commanders are capable of.

 

[cabatli_53]

What wars man..!? 1973. ?!?
And what experience in all types of war Israel Has...?! Like what Hezbullah did a few years ago ?!

I wander how could most of People vote for Turkey and Israel....other talking about aircrafts and ships....we are in a military forum...and with little search you will figure out what.....Egypt ground force is much more powerful in ME followed by Israel and Turkey....others are far behind.

Have you ever searched about Turkish land forces/industrial capabilities and ongoing projects ?

Then that's it.
But Iran is much stronger in war strategic, man power, unawaring strategies and attacks, radar power, ground and air missiles, ICBMs, country depth and size, strategic depths etc .....

My two cents ...

Iran is much stronger in total man power and long range mass destruction weapons. You are developing some precision guided missiles but Induction of them to Army will take years. Your land vehicle production capabilities from tanks to IFV, APC are limited and not modern so I don't put Iran ahead of Turkey in total.

TURKIYE.... than israel.... Than others

Being a NATO member Turkiye has gained a lot .... Transfer of tech,under subsidiarised rates.... The best tech on hand etx... These are the "fruits" of being a NATO member.

Actually, Being a NATO member doesn't bring anything regarding technology. India is not a NATO member but NATO weapon suppliers are competing each others for sharing technology with them to get the winner. It is about political power of importer countries along with the size of tender ($). Turkey has been woring on defence sector since 1974 and applied clever strategies to improve capabilities since 15 years and It is time to collect fruits of hard working and systematic efforts in following 10-15 years.

 

[mike2000 is back]

Industry wise Israel is indeed Ahead but Turkey also have decent Industry as well and the Gap of Turkey in Industry is fulfilled by Numbers so its Quite even on their Indigenous Capacity. So its not like there is a very huge gap but Position of Turkey is Slightly better.

Loool you really believe Turkey has a better defence industry than israel??lool. Even most turks themselves dont believe that. but as my french friend @Gabriel92 said guess its because most of you dont like Israel.

To be fair israel is more advanced than all of the middle eastern countries. Followed by i would say Turkey/Iran.
Israel isnt in the same league with the others, despite being smaller. Size doesnt really matter if you read hjsyory. If it did my country(a small isolated european island) would have never ruled the worl amd israel wouldnt be a hegemon in the middle east and acting the way it wants.loool

Industry wise Israel is indeed Ahead but Turkey also have decent Industry as well and the Gap of Turkey in Industry is fulfilled by Numbers so its Quite even on their Indigenous Capacity. So its not like there is a very huge gap but Position of Turkey is Slightly better.

Loool you really believe Turkey has a better defence industry than israel??lool. Even most turks themselves dont believe that. but as my french friend @Gabriel92 said guess its because most of you dont like Israel.

To be fair israel is more advanced than all of the middle eastern countries. Followed by i would say Turkey/Iran.
Israel isnt in the same league with the others, despite being smaller. Size doesnt really matter if you read hjsyory. If it did my country(a small isolated european island) would have never ruled the world and israel wouldnt be a hegemon in the middle east and acting the way it wants.loool

 

[Frogman]

Based on what wars? The ones happened four decades ago?

What wars man..!? 1973. ?!?
And what experience in all types of war Israel Has...?! Like what Hezbullah did a few years ago ?!

I wander how could most of People vote for Turkey and Israel....other talking about aircrafts and ships....we are in a military forum...and with little search you will figure out what.....Egypt ground force is much more powerful in ME followed by Israel and Turkey....others are far behind.

I agree with you
but you must understand
that 1968 defeat was caused by the israeli air superiority so it wouldn't be fair for a ground force without air defance to fight a desert war even if they had the best commanders.
1973 win (October /Yom kepor ) shows what the egyptain commanders are capable of.

500s comment isn't about the quality of commanders (at least I don't think it is) the Egyptian Armed Forces has. That was never much of a problem. A problem that still persists is the decentralisation of power among junior ranks, whether that be among Officers or NCOs.

In Britain and elsewhere we often joke that a British or US Sgt. has more responsibilities and powers than an Arab Major or Captain. Although this is an over exaggeration and oversimplification it still rings true. The Armed Forces non commissioned ranks remain inexcusably weak when they should be the core of the Army.

As a result of this we simply have too many officers for jobs that should be done by Staff Sgt.s, Sgt. Majors, and Warrant Officers ranks that don't even exist (in the same structure) in our forces. What this means is that the decision making process is convoluted and long (certainly longer than that in Britain and perhaps Israel).

From my personal experience it's the NCOs that run formations not the Officers, a platoon commander is never truly in charge the Sgt. is. In a Company ops room the Capitan and Major get the decision making done but it is the Staff Sgt.s and Sgt. Majors that provide the equipment, ammunition, and rations that allow a platoon or Coy to conduct operations.

This is not to say we haven't changed since 73 we have immensely as have the Israelis. They are nowhere near a perfect army nor are they the switched on dealers of death they wish to portray.

In terms of land forces Egypt definitely comes out on top in the Middle East. The sheer size of the Army in terms of active and reserve personnel blows everyone else out of the water. Egypt has the largest modern MBT fleet in the ME and the entire Army is either armoured or mechanised which is odd (light role infantry is nowhere to be found). More important than that is Army's artillery power, which is its greatest asset. The fire power Army's artillery can bring is astonishing and devastating whether carrying out precision strikes or area bombardment, its counter battery capabilities are also quite scary. As for Air Defence then we don't even need to say anything about that.

What lets us down is the Armed Forces other branches. I have advocated for quite some time now cutting the Army in favour of the Air Force and Navy. It is incredibly bloated and absolutely swallows funding. The introduction of an Army and Navy air corps and the complete professionalism of the force is also on my list but hey ho who's going to listen to me!

 

[XenoEnsi-14]

Syria and Iraq...

Actually seriously, a tie between Turkey and Israel... I think.

 

[cabatli_53]

-The countries who relied own capabilities, described own requirements to develop main battle tank is just Israel and Turkey. Israel has much experiences in tank design/matured platforms since They have upgraded their base platforms thanks to experiences gained from real wars but Turkey is also moving fast in this sector to catch Israel not only complete platforms but also subsystems that Israel lacks but Egypt has an assembly center for USA Abrams and inducted a serious number of M1A1 tanks which give great capabilities to Egyptian Army indeed.

-Among them, There are two countries developing active protection systems to protect their strategic land platforms. Turkey and Israel. Israel has a long experiences on protections and revealed systems serving different purposes but It was the first time Turkey has tested own protection system called Akkor in 2010 and improving capabilities. All Altay tanks are planned to be received into service with onboard Akkor protection system like Merkava.

- In terms of Artillery rocket/missiles, Israel and Turkey.
Those two reveal similar solutions. Israeli Lynx, Extra and Lora... Turkish Sakarya (46km), S+ (50km), Kasirga (100km), Kasirga+(120+km), Ylrm Blk-1(300km), Yldrm Blk-2 (450km). There are no other countries that is able to develop and produce own guided artillery missile solutions in ME different than those two.

-Anti-tank missiles: Israel and Turkey.
Israel has a vast of experience and capabilities for anti-tank missiles. Their state of art missile family called Spike are known world-wide and selling like hot cake. If you take a look Turkey's anti-tank missile development strategies, It looks quite similar to What Israel revealed years ago. What Israel did with Spike faimly is being tried to be done with Mizrak family missiles by Turkey.

Mizrak-D Block-2 (30km)
Mizrak-D Block-1: Spike NLOS
Mizrak-U: Spike ER
Mizrak-O: Spike LR
Mizrak-SR: Spike MR
Mizrak-K: Spike MR, Javelin

-Artillery self propelled howitzers: Turkey
As far as I know, Turkey is the sole country in ME who has active howitzer production facilities thanks to help received in 1990's. Today, Almost all sections of Firtina howitzers are being manufactured in Turkey without any external help and exportation efforts to abroad are proceeding. In accordance with changing requirements, The new howitzers/modifications are planned for development. In parallel to Firtina, Poyraz ammunition resupply vehicle is also developed. Army started receiving Poyraz vehicles. At present, Facility is planning to develop an Archer like solution, while upgrading existing Panter howitzers.

- Turkey is the sole country who has an attack helicopter production/assembly facilities thanks to Italian/Turkey collaboration in ME. Almost all section of fuselage along with critical components, electro-optics, mission computer, missile and avionics are being manufactured by Turkish institutes. New modifications are planned in accordance with new requirements of Army. 91 Atak is under production.

- Turkey is the sole country in ME who has an 5 tonnes class utility helicopter project for own armed forces. The capabilities and technologies gained from other projects are being applied for new domestic utility helicopter program. She will have same powerplant with T-129 Atak helicopter and revealed for many different purposes.

 

[Osmanovic]

Clearly Iraq. It's all about training, equipment, and combat experience. Iraq has been receiving training from the best military in the world. All of their training is done according to NATO standards and they are sending their officers to some of the best military academies in the world. They have tons of conventional experience from the 90's and early 2000's, they also have a lot of experience in counter terrorism. Its not all about size, read history and you will see this.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Have you ever searched about Turkish land forces/industrial capabilities and ongoing projects ?



Iran is much stronger in total man power and long range mass destruction weapons. You are developing some precision guided missiles but Induction of them to Army will take years. Your land vehicle production capabilities from tanks to IFV, APC are limited and not modern so I don't put Iran ahead of Turkey in total.




Actually, Being a NATO member doesn't bring anything regarding technology. India is not a NATO member but NATO weapon suppliers are competing each others for sharing technology with them to get the winner. It is about political power of importer countries along with the size of tender ($). Turkey has been woring on defence sector since 1974 and applied clever strategies to improve capabilities since 15 years and It is time to collect fruits of hard working and systematic efforts in following 10-15 years.

Actually it does pay... weapons to NATO members are sold on subsidarised rates.... access to weaponary that other non member states may not be given (specially with ToT).. etc..


Even today majority of your projects got alot of help from NATO members and allies...

 

[cabatli_53]

Actually it does pay... weapons to NATO members are sold on subsidarised rates.... access to weaponary that other non member states may not be given (specially with ToT).. etc..


Even today majority of your projects got alot of help from NATO members and allies...

ToT issue is requested from each contenderers who attends tenders. It has nothing to do with being NATO member but Turkish Undersecretariat's tender regulations. The winner mostly became the country or institute who guarantee to give satisfactory ToT (If requested) under an avarage price compared with others. See Chinese example for Long range air defence system. China is a NATO member ? NATO solidarity stories are just a gossip spreaded by mostly non-NATO countries' members in forums. It is money ($) and political power of countries which enables suppliers to share their ToT. Otherwise, Noone gives a flying sh@t to others in NATO.
With your own logic, Each NATO states must have been a weapon exporter since NATO states share requested things others. I don't know others but I can easily say that Turkey doesn't receive anything cause of being a NATO member excluding dozens of second hand tanks and frigates.