Who gets to be Caliph?

[IbnAlwaled]

Too often we are quick to blame others for blasphemy. I don't know what ahmadis believe but many shias believe so. But the evidences are there that Mohammad was the final Prophet, but not necessarily the final messenger. God may send messengers after him to revive his religion but the scripture (Quran), however, is the final revealed by the final Prophet.

eg. This verse is assumed by some to be so:



Some think this refers to Imam Mahdi, like many Shias.

There is no deference between a prophet and a messenger. The verse was referring to Mohammed(pbum).
{Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing.}(33:40)

 

[King Solomon]

There is no deference between a prophet and a messenger.
{Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing.}(33:40)

As I said, religious debates always go in circle. That verse states he is both the messenger and Prophet (something I didn't disagree at all). Anyways, this will be my last post in the issue. This predicted "messenger", not Prophet (see my previous post) is assumed by some to be the Mahdi or Prophet Jesus who was faked death by God. In shia methodology, he will revive true Islam as in Quran.

The following verse shows that prophet and messenger is not the same:

[Quran 22:52] We did not send before you any MESSENGER NOR A PROPHET, without having the devil interfere in his wishes. God then nullifies what the devil has done. God perfects His revelations. God is Omniscient, Most Wise.

And a Prophet's distinguishing characteristic is he always has a scripture revealed to him:

[Quran 2:213] The people used to be one community when God sent THE PROPHETS as bearers of good news, as well as warners. HE SENT DOWN WITH THEM THE SCRIPTURE, bearing the truth, to judge among the people in their disputes.

 

[IbnAlwaled]

As I said, religious debates always go in circle. That verse states he is both the messenger and Prophet (something I didn't disagree at all). Anyways, this will be my last post in the issue. This predicted "messenger", not Prophet (see my previous post) is assumed by some to be the Mahdi or Prophet Jesus who was faked death by God. In shia methodology, he will revive true Islam as in Quran.

The following verse shows that prophet and messenger is not the same:



And a Prophet's distinguishing characteristic is he always has a scripture revealed to him:

Interesting, but could you explain why if there was a coming messenger, why does the Quran only mentions him in this verse ambiguously? The Quran is not a puzzle to decipher, its very clear on the theological matters and would be very clear regarding that issue.

 

[King Solomon]

Interesting, but could you explain why if there was a coming messenger, why does the Quran only mentions him in this verse ambiguously? The Quran is not a puzzle to decipher, its very clear on the theological matters and would be very clear regarding that issue.

Personally, I find very little ambiguity there. Perhaps, you are finding it ambiguous because it goes against your traditional sunni belief?

3:81
God took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."

[Quran 22:52] We did not send before you any MESSENGER NOR A PROPHET, without having the devil interfere in his wishes. God then nullifies what the devil has done. God perfects His revelations. God is Omniscient, Most Wise.

[Quran 2:213] The people used to be one community when God sent THE PROPHETS as bearers of good news, as well as warners. HE SENT DOWN WITH THEM THE SCRIPTURE, bearing the truth, to judge among the people in their disputes.

 

[raptor22]

Quarn is absolute clear when you learn it from the main source ,

as you know it's said that " Al salat is the pillar of the religion " but the number of "rakaut" it's not written in Quran .

as a result can we abdicate our responsibility as to "Al salat"?


we need learn Quran through prophet and his family because they are the main source .

 

[ali786]

To each his own.

Just out of interest, how do you pray then? because that is not in the quran.

There is a name for that sect, they are called Qur'anis, they don't pray five times a day and they don't do al ot of stuff Sunnis and Shias do since they entirely reject hadiths.

Qur'anis are on another level, dont know how they even pray if they just follow quran on its own.

I have to say that to Sunnis this is very blasphemous, and would be considered apostasy. Isn't that why Ahmadis were considered non Muslim?

agreed.


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[Bratva]

The very first condition of Caliphat. It must not become Dynasty. The one who became caliph, all his family members must not become caliph after his death. Abu Bakr (R.A) and Umar(R.A) thats successfully ruled because they didnot involved any family members in government matters. Usman (R.A) faced turbulence because he involved family members. After Ali (R.A)

Same Case with Umar Bin Abdul Aziz ( May Allah be pleased with him) He slept on floor, He discouraged his family members and all the insurgencies and Fitna of Khawarjies died down in his reign.... But alas same family members poisoned him and we lost the diamond of Islamic History....

 

[raptor22]

Finally no one answered my question :

my question is what happened to God ? why after our prophet he didn't send anyone ? isn't odd to you ? can you imagine a class without teacher ?

I mean imagine 10 minutes before our prophet's death (pbuh) , in that moments people needed a chosen leader by God , and after 10 minutes they didn't need a leader ( a chosen man ) anymore? is it possible ?what does that mean ? what are differences BTW those 2 times ? did people change in 10 minutes ? as it obvious there has been always a chosen man among the human , why there is no one in present time ? does God forget us ?

 

[The SC]

This is the answer:

This day those who disbelieve have despaired of [defeating] your religion; so fear them not, but fear Me. This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion.
اليوم ييس الذين كفروا من دينكم فلا تخشوهم واخشون اليوم اكملت لكم دينكم واتممت عليكم نعمتي ورضيت لكم الاسلام دينا

What do you need more?

 

[The SC]

Finally no one answered my question :



I mean imagine 10 minutes before our prophet's death (pbuh) , in that moments people needed a chosen leader by God , and after 10 minutes they didn't need a leader ( a chosen man ) anymore? is it possible ?what does that mean ? what are differences BTW those 2 times ? did people change in 10 minutes ? as it obvious there has been always a chosen man among the human , why there is no one in present time ? does God forget us ?

Dear friend there is a big difference for a chosen man by god and a chosen one by the people of god, for the latter we had Shora as a favour from God to decide between us upon whom got to be the Caliph.

Caliph means literally the one who replaces the Authority of God on "humans" in earth, witch was the prophet Mohammed a.s.s, who himself was under the authority of God.

I say "humans" because Koran was addressed to Humanity to follow Islam:

Abraham a.s.s is the first prophet of Islam.
The religion of Abraham was not Judaism it was Islam(or monotheism in its purest form), the best example you will find about this is when God asks Abraham to ready his son for sacrifice and he obliged(Islam to the will of God), and then his son was spared and a sheep was sent to replace him which is still the biggest EID in the Muslim world as the ultimate proof of Islam pre-dating Judaism and Christianity .

 

[The SC]

As I said, religious debates always go in circle. That verse states he is both the messenger and Prophet (something I didn't disagree at all). Anyways, this will be my last post in the issue. This predicted "messenger", not Prophet (see my previous post) is assumed by some to be the Mahdi or Prophet Jesus who was faked death by God. In shia methodology, he will revive true Islam as in Quran.

The following verse shows that prophet and messenger is not the same:



And a Prophet's distinguishing characteristic is he always has a scripture revealed to him:

Rassoul means messenger and nabiye means prophet, so Mohammad a.s.s. was both.

 

[raptor22]

Dear friend there is a big difference for a chosen man by god and a chosen one by the people of god, for the latter we had Shora as a favour from God to decide between us upon whom got to be the Caliph.

Caliph means literally the one who replaces the Authority of God on "humans" in earth, witch was the prophet Mohammed a.s.s, who himself was under the authority of God.

Therefor he has to be chosen by God as the prophet Mohammad was

I say "humans" because Koran was addressed to Humanity to follow Islam:

Abraham a.s.s is the first prophet of Islam.
The religion of Abraham was not Judaism it was Islam(or monotheism in its purest form), the best example you will find about this is when God asks Abraham to ready his son for sacrifice and he obliged(Islam to the will of God), and then his son was spared and a sheep was sent to replace him which is still the biggest EID in the Muslim world as the ultimate proof of Islam pre-dating Judaism and Christianity .

Dear pal , I do know the differences btw a chosen man by God and a caliph , what I'm trying to hammer in is , since creation Adam by God till our prophet (pbuh) God were sending its prophets and messengers to guide human beings through the darkness of their ignorance , I want to know what happened to God that all the sudden he gave that up ?

It's written in the holly Quran that there will be no more messenger or prophet after prophet of Islam and I do agree with it .
the problem is as all our prophets and messengers were chosen by God as a result caliph has to be chosen by God too . it's a thing that has happened all the time .

And Moses said to his brother Aaron, "Take my place among my people, do right [by them], and do not follow the way of the corrupters."

«...... وَقَالَ مُوسَى‏ لْأَخِيهِ هَارُونَ اخْلُفْنِي فِي قَوْمي*وَأَصْلِحْ وَلاَتَتَّبِعْ سَبِيلَ الْمُفْسِدِينَ» (اعراف/142)

The Moses ( the prophet of God) left his people for 40 days and in order to prevent its people from disobeying appointed his brother "Aaron" as leader, as a result they didn't obey him and worshiped Samaritan calf .

As it obvious even for 40 days people needed a chosen man by god :

Taha 29-30

And appoint for me a minister from my family , Aaron, my brother.

وَاجْعَل لِي وَزِيراً مِنْ أَهْلِي* هَارُونَ أَخِي

Taha 36

[ Allah ] said, "You have been granted your request, O Moses.

قَالَ قَدْ أُوتيِتَ سُؤْلَكَ يَامُوسَى

my question is : is it possible which god leaves its people without a leader for 1400 years ?


And the leader has never chosen by people 'cause it is NOT possible ,as it's written in the holly Quran it's not acceptable :

Al-Annam 116

And if you obey most of those upon the earth, they will mislead you from the way of Allah . They follow not except assumption, and they are not but falsifying.

وَإِن تُطِعْ أَكْثَرَ مَن فِي الْأَرْضِ يُضِلُّوكَ عَن سَبِيلِ اللّهِ إِن يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلَّا الظَّنَّ وَإِنْ هُمْ إِلَّا يَخْرُصُونَ

 

[The SC]

About banou Israel, they have told every prophet sent to them that they wanted to talk to his God personally otherwise they would not believe. This shows how shallow their faith of god was/is (the majority anyway).

In the Koran God says that the final word was the Koran itself, and the final religion is Islam.

We should not confuse a prophet or a messenger of God, with whom can become khalipha of/for the Muslim Ummah. This one has to be chosen by a consensus of the Muslim nations by Chora, which will be very difficult now a days.

As far as The Mahdi is concerned, there are many possibilities of his presence; the facts saying he is hidden, mean that he is present with us by his powerful Mind which is connected and in harmony with the Universal mind, thus to GOD.
So his will is the will of God nothing more and nothing less, when God will choose to manifest him, he will do so in his chosen time frame and space; since god is perfect, It will be in the perfect time and the perfect place.
Other things than this would be mere speculations.

 

[King Solomon]

Dear pal , I do know the differences btw a chosen man by God and a caliph , what I'm trying to hammer in is , since creation Adam by God till our prophet (pbuh) God were sending its prophets and messengers to guide human beings through the darkness of their ignorance , I want to know what happened to God that all the sudden he gave that up ?

It's written in the holly Quran that there will be no more messenger or prophet after prophet of Islam and I do agree with it .
the problem is as all our prophets and messengers were chosen by God as a result caliph has to be chosen by God too . it's a thing that has happened all the time .






The Moses ( the prophet of God) left his people for 40 days and in order to prevent its people from disobeying appointed his brother "Aaron" as leader, as a result they didn't obey him and worshiped Samaritan calf .

As it obvious even for 40 days people needed a chosen man by god :

Taha 29-30





Taha 36






my question is : is it possible which god leaves its people without a leader for 1400 years ?


And the leader has never chosen by people 'cause it is NOT possible ,as it's written in the holly Quran it's not acceptable :

Al-Annam 116

Based on documented accounts, the leader you are indicating is Ali. According to many accounts, he was ordered to be the Caliph after our prophet mohammed. Maybe the way abu bakr became the caliph was unjust but why fall back because of it? It has been friggin 1400 years since then and we should just move on instead of thinking about who was the rightful caliph 1400 years ago.

 

[raptor22]

Based on documented accounts, the leader you are indicating is Ali. According to many accounts, he was ordered to be the Caliph after our prophet mohammed. Maybe the way abu bakr became the caliph was unjust but why fall back because of it? It has been friggin 1400 years since then and we should just move on instead of thinking about who was the rightful caliph 1400 years ago.

I'm sorry time is running short for me and I gotta go but I try to get my point across to you :


I'm not talking only about 1400 years ago what about now ? as I said there has to be a chosen man in the present time as it's happened always . in the point of my view, judgement day is not possible while there is no chosen man among of people to guide them, if you are accepting my point so it had to happened to imam Ali too , I mean if there had to sb after prophet there had to be sb after him too he had to say who is the next caliph and next caliph had to tell us who is the next one as our prophet (pbuh) did , 'cause they are chosen man.

Al-raad 7 :

And those who disbelieved say, "Why has a sign not been sent down to him from his Lord?" You are only a warner, and for every people is a guide.

وَیَقُولُ الَّذِینَ کَفَرُوا لَوْ لا أُنْزِلَ عَلَیْهِ آیَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّه إِنَّما أَنْتَ مُنْذِرٌ وَلِکُلِّ قَوْمٍ هادٍ

Fatir 24 :

Indeed, We have sent you with the truth as a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And there was no nation but that there had passed within it a warner.

إِنَّا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ بِالْحَقِّ بَشِيرًا وَنَذِيرًا وَإِنْ مِنْ أُمَّةٍ إِلا خَلا فِيهَا نَذِيرٌ

Look at Islamic countries which one is really Islamic ? which version of Islam is the real one? I think if they've let Islam continue its correct path we wouldn't have 72 sects in present era , we had to learn Islam from its real source , but they didn't let us to do so.