When did South China Sea become China's "core interest"?

[meocoi]

The Chinese have valid proofs to claim the South China Sea, bro.
The Vietnamese also have valid proofs too.
The Philippines bases its claims on the EEZ.
The peculiar thing is that both Vietnam and China did practise a "closed policy" in which people were forbidden from free roaming the blue water for a long time (many centuries). So, those islands and islets along the West Pacific rim were long-time bases for pirate groups rather than directly governed by any govs.
That's the reason why neither Vietnam nor China has strong, decisive proofs for their claims.

Every country involved in the South China Sea are crazy for its wealth oil reserve, not only China. But the most controversy was that China did claim so much, the entire South China Sea. It's sorta historical mistakes made by the Chiang Kai Shek gov, even now if Chinese gov want to seriously resolve the issue by stepping back and making compromises (claiming less), it still seems to be impossible due to China's internal nationalism movement.

The problem with your Chinese counterpart huzihaidao12 that he did not do a good digging-work of finding the the appropriate proof does not mean that there are no proof from Chinese at all.

I think my point is not only from my friend huzihaidao12 but also from the opinions of most other experts in the world except those from China, you could look at the recent international conferences about this. The results are straight forward. China consider the Hainan island as their southernmost part of it at least until 19 century and everyone can observe this fact in the official maps given by huzihaidao12.

China in recent years spend a lot of money to find the proof for the claim in SCS, they also make a lot of propaganda to its people and everything data should be easily accessed. If there exist such the maps, they must be be everywhere in the internet and not difficult to find. Our friend huzihaidao12 surely do not have problem with baidu or google, just look how he searched and showed a lot of information.

Also if China have valid proof and everything else, why do they refuse to settle the dispute in the international court, Vietnam and Philippine are ready for them.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Just think how does it look like in the court, the judge will ask Chinese: you say you possessed these islands for two thousands years so were they include in your official maps. Chinese will answer: sorry, only Hainan can be seen in these maps, you must read different writings of us or look into other records in order to "see" these islands. Very funny, lol.

I also find it very fun, because I gave you the map, what makes you feel that way.

 

[huzihaidao12]

This is the ancient map. There are also answers to the questions which include Taiwan, but her position has some bias.

´óÃ÷»ìһͼ_°Ù¶È°Ù¿Æ

大明混一图属行政区域图，成图年代为公元1389年（明洪武二十二年），彩绘绢本，图幅尺寸为386×456cm，是一幅大挂图，图内主要表示明朝及邻近地区的各级居民地、山形、河流及其相对位置。居民地均以地名加框的方法定位，其框用不同颜色区别内外所属。此图绘制精美，内容丰富，是一件国宝级的珍贵文物。现藏于中国第一历史档案馆。 　　

这幅明代世界地图，以大明王朝版图为中心，东起日本，西达欧洲，南括爪哇，北至蒙古，是我国目前已知尺寸最大、年代最久远、保存最完好的古代世界地图。《大明混一图》全图没有明显的疆域界限，仅以地名条块的不同颜色，来区别内外所属。图中着重描绘了明王朝各级治所、山脉、河流的相对位置，镇寨堡驿、渠塘堰井、湖泊泽池、边地岛屿以及古遗址、古河道等共计一千余处。 欧洲与非洲地区放大图

我们看这幅地图，感觉与现在最吻合的就是从渤海到海南岛的沿海地形，渤海湾、山东半岛的形状非常接近，水系也很详细。再看长江的位置，也差不多，长江支流水系标示得更详细，鄱阳湖、洞庭湖、太湖三大湖泊清晰可见，这可能跟明王朝初期的统治有很大关系。广东沿海似乎还显示了珠江口的位置，但雷州半岛、海南岛的位置偏西了。台湾岛、澎湖列岛及日本岛的差异较大。
This is the ancient map. There are also answers to the questions which include Taiwan, but her position has some bias.

Incidentally, that it also answer your first question, the color is standard to distinguish the Ming dynasty territory and non-Chinese territory.

Daming mixed a diagram of an administrative area map, mapping years as AD 1389 (Hongwu two years), painting on silk, map sheet size is 386 × 456cm, is a large wall charts, maps, said the Ming Dynasty and adjacent areas mainly at all levels of residential areas, Yamagata, rivers and their relative position. Residents to place names are framed method of positioning, the difference between the inside and outside the box belongs to a different color. This drawing beautifully, rich in content, is a national treasure of precious relics. Now hidden in the First Historical Archives of China.

Ming Dynasty painting a world map to map as the center of the Ming dynasty, east of Japan, west Europe, the South, including Java, north to Mongolia, China's largest known size, the oldest and best preserved of the ancient world map. "Daming mixed a map" the boundaries of the whole graph has no obvious boundaries, only the names of different bar colors to distinguish the respective inside and outside. Focus on the figure depicts a legacy at all levels of the Ming Dynasty, mountains, rivers, the relative position of the town Zhaibao Station, drainage wells ponds, lakes Ze pool, border areas and islands, ancient ruins, the ancient river courses at a total of one thousand. Enlargement of Europe and Africa

We look at this map, feel and now the most consistent is to Hainan Island from the Bohai Sea coastal terrain, Bohai Bay, Shandong Peninsula, the shape is very close to water is also very detailed. Look at the location of the Yangtze River, is similar, the Yangtze River tributaries indicate more detailed, Poyang Lake, Dongting Lake, Taihu Lake is clearly visible three, which may be the rule of the early Ming Dynasty with a great relationship. Guangdong coast seems to show the location of the Pearl River estuary, but the Leizhou Peninsula, west of Hainan Island location. Taiwan Island, Penghu Islands and Japan, the island quite different.

---------- Post added at 07:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:45 PM ----------




It has a local Chinese government in Taiwan. Please use your eyes, thank you.

Why do not you see these?

 

[huzihaidao12]

http://bbs.godeyes.cn/upload/2006/05/27/193915.jpg

http://bbs.godeyes.cn/upload/2006/05/27/194050.jpg

Ming dynasty, the other maps, it is clear that including Taiwan.

Why ignore my previous post?

 

[huzihaidao12]

Best to go with the book. For example, Zheng charts, Ming Dynasty official records in those islands, their text is "石塘" or "万生石塘" ,they are within the territory of China in the record and then to compare, they have the same location, have the same name (Chinese name) and then, you can make judgments.

http://www.nansha.org.cn/maps/1/zheng_he_hang_hai_tu2.jpg

---------- Post added at 12:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 AM ----------



Best to combine the text in the official records.

Well, in general, the map is more difficult to save more than books, because maps are usually fewer, more difficult to preserve, the evidence is mainly from the Chinese ancient history books, and some of the saved map. A combination of both, it is more easy to believe.

such as

http://www.spratlys.org/history/spratly-islands-history-timeline.htm

220-280AD General Kang Tai one of the famous ancient Chinese navigator of East Wu State of the Three Kingdoms Period mentioned Nansha Islands in his book Funan Zhuan (or Journeys to and from Phnom) (the name of an ancient state in today's Cambodia).

 

[huzihaidao12]

By the way, I saw your map, I do not know the map of ancient Vietnam was written by the English. Just a map is worth to see, but I ask you to tell me the source, the name of this map, where it comes from ? If there are ancient history books to refer to it, you did not answer me.

---------- Post added at 10:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 PM ----------

Thank you for your participation, but do not declare victory by yourself.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Hell, yes. Ask everybody in the world, they will all say that the massacre was existed.

Wikileaks: no bloodshed inside Tiananmen Square, cables claim - Telegraph

 

[huzihaidao12]

Hell, you haven't read a word from my previous comment.

It's talk about Nguyễn dynasty call to arms some-ten men (70-80 men if I'm not mistaken) from Lý Sơn island, they will go to Paracel to protect the islands, collect goods from sunk ships...
Other version?
tờ chiếu gia tộc họ Đặng Lý SƠn - Google Search
Choose any version you want.

I saw, although there are still some vague words. Seems to get such information, a person's name, and some sailors will do some work, but critical information, it does not have any information or in the Spratly Islands Paracel Islands, where they go ? Do not know. What they do? Do not know.You can put all the text in that figure.
and if this figure is true, then it must have some information on the Paracel in Vietnam ancient books, it is best to go to find them.

BTW, earliest time when Vietnamese dynasty claim sovereignty over Paracel is around 1460-1497.
Earliest time when Chinese dynasty claim sovereignty over Paracel is around 1900s.
Much more different at all.

As early as the Tang dynasty 618～907),China sovereignty over Paracel , according to our ancient history books.

 

[meocoi]

Why ignore my previous post?

As far as I understand, these one maps described the world with no country boder. Other maps I could not see China and other countries. There are many kind of maps: geographical maps, economical maps, territorial maps... The appearance of something in a map does not necessarily mean that that thing is belonged to a country. Vietnamese ambassador when going to China to give tributary every year also draw many geographical maps and wrote many records of different regions of China where they passed, it does not imply that Vietnam possessed China. What people want to see here is the territorial maps of China during last two thousand years. If these islands were a part of China, they must be included in the territorial maps. Still you have not satisfied us by giving these maps for all dynasties starting from Hans, the first dynasty that possessed these islands as you said.

 

[meocoi]

Well, in general, the map is more difficult to save more than books, because maps are usually fewer, more difficult to preserve, the evidence is mainly from the Chinese ancient history books, and some of the saved map. A combination of both, it is more easy to believe.

such as

Spratly Islands History Timeline - Nansha Islands of China

220-280AD General Kang Tai one of the famous ancient Chinese navigator of East Wu State of the Three Kingdoms Period mentioned Nansha Islands in his book Funan Zhuan (or Journeys to and from Phnom) (the name of an ancient state in today's Cambodia).

Plz, you have shown many maps with very beautiful preserved color even from Tang dynasty and from all of them, we can only see Hainan islands as southernmost part of China. And now you tell us that there is no map that include these islands because all of them are destroyed, as they are much more difficult to preserve in comparing to those maps that do not include these islands.I do not think this is a very convincing argument.

 

[Star√ation]

Happy Mid Autumn Festival to all

 

[huzihaidao12]

Plz, you have shown many maps with very beautiful preserved color even from Tang dynasty and from all of them, we can only see Hainan islands as southernmost part of China. And now you tell us that there is no map that include these islands because all of them are destroyed, as they are much more difficult to preserve in comparing to those maps that do not include these islands.I do not think this is a very convincing argument.

I know what is wrong, China's main evidence is the books, ancient history books, using text, do not use map, I said, the map is more difficult to save, China has many large-scale war in history, even books, there are many have been lost. Why do you focus only on the map, do you think that ancient history books are false?

 

[huzihaidao12]

This is the ancient map. There are also answers to the questions which include Taiwan, but her position has some bias.

´óÃ÷»ìһͼ_°Ù¶È°Ù¿Æ

大明混一图属行政区域图，成图年代为公元1389年（明洪武二十二年），彩绘绢本，图幅尺寸为386×456cm，是一幅大挂图，图内主要表示明朝及邻近地区的各级居民地、山形、河流及其相对位置。居民地均以地名加框的方法定位，其框用不同颜色区别内外所属。此图绘制精美，内容丰富，是一件国宝级的珍贵文物。现藏于中国第一历史档案馆。 　　

这幅明代世界地图，以大明王朝版图为中心，东起日本，西达欧洲，南括爪哇，北至蒙古，是我国目前已知尺寸最大、年代最久远、保存最完好的古代世界地图。《大明混一图》全图没有明显的疆域界限，仅以地名条块的不同颜色，来区别内外所属。图中着重描绘了明王朝各级治所、山脉、河流的相对位置，镇寨堡驿、渠塘堰井、湖泊泽池、边地岛屿以及古遗址、古河道等共计一千余处。 欧洲与非洲地区放大图

我们看这幅地图，感觉与现在最吻合的就是从渤海到海南岛的沿海地形，渤海湾、山东半岛的形状非常接近，水系也很详细。再看长江的位置，也差不多，长江支流水系标示得更详细，鄱阳湖、洞庭湖、太湖三大湖泊清晰可见，这可能跟明王朝初期的统治有很大关系。广东沿海似乎还显示了珠江口的位置，但雷州半岛、海南岛的位置偏西了。台湾岛、澎湖列岛及日本岛的差异较大。
This is the ancient map. There are also answers to the questions which include Taiwan, but her position has some bias.

Incidentally, that it also answer your first question, the color is standard to distinguish the Ming dynasty territory and non-Chinese territory.

Daming mixed a diagram of an administrative area map, mapping years as AD 1389 (Hongwu two years), painting on silk, map sheet size is 386 × 456cm, is a large wall charts, maps, said the Ming Dynasty and adjacent areas mainly at all levels of residential areas, Yamagata, rivers and their relative position. Residents to place names are framed method of positioning, the difference between the inside and outside the box belongs to a different color. This drawing beautifully, rich in content, is a national treasure of precious relics. Now hidden in the First Historical Archives of China.

Ming Dynasty painting a world map to map as the center of the Ming dynasty, east of Japan, west Europe, the South, including Java, north to Mongolia, China's largest known size, the oldest and best preserved of the ancient world map. "Daming mixed a map" the boundaries of the whole graph has no obvious boundaries, only the names of different bar colors to distinguish the respective inside and outside. Focus on the figure depicts a legacy at all levels of the Ming Dynasty, mountains, rivers, the relative position of the town Zhaibao Station, drainage wells ponds, lakes Ze pool, border areas and islands, ancient ruins, the ancient river courses at a total of one thousand. Enlargement of Europe and Africa

We look at this map, feel and now the most consistent is to Hainan Island from the Bohai Sea coastal terrain, Bohai Bay, Shandong Peninsula, the shape is very close to water is also very detailed. Look at the location of the Yangtze River, is similar, the Yangtze River tributaries indicate more detailed, Poyang Lake, Dongting Lake, Taihu Lake is clearly visible three, which may be the rule of the early Ming Dynasty with a great relationship. Guangdong coast seems to show the location of the Pearl River estuary, but the Leizhou Peninsula, west of Hainan Island location. Taiwan Island, Penghu Islands and Japan, the island quite different.

---------- Post added at 07:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:45 PM ----------




It has a local Chinese government in Taiwan. Please use your eyes, thank you.

´óÃ÷»ìһͼ´ÊÌõͼ²á_°Ù¶È°Ù¿Æ

This is a boundary map, I read information, it says the color is the difference between the different territories in the Ming and other countries.

 

[huzihaidao12]

I said, you need to combine the written records, this is a map of the Ming dynasty, they all are the same and written records. The same location, the same name. One thing is important, ZHENHE to use chinese name to describe those islands, if the islands do not belong to the Ming Dynasty, it belongs to other countries, then he will use only the language of those countries, the use of Chinese name, just to show that they are Chinese territory.

Want to have a reasonable rebuttal, even without a clear map of the territory and modern, but there are still differences that way. Since the Ming Dynasty history books have the same record and a map of the Ming dynasty, the same location and name, then it is available letter, this is "evidence does not stand alone," we can find two relevant proof.

 

[Đảo Bạch Long Vỹ]

Why ignore my previous post?

Hell, I don't mean that Taiwan island belongs to Vietnam

Well, in general, the map is more difficult to save more than books, because maps are usually fewer, more difficult to preserve, the evidence is mainly from the Chinese ancient history books, and some of the saved map. A combination of both, it is more easy to believe.

such as

Spratly Islands History Timeline - Nansha Islands of China

220-280AD General Kang Tai one of the famous ancient Chinese navigator of East Wu State of the Three Kingdoms Period mentioned Nansha Islands in his book Funan Zhuan (or Journeys to and from Phnom) (the name of an ancient state in today's Cambodia).

Another "discovery", not "sovereign claiming" You must admit the fact that China haven't claimed/set sovereignty over Paracel until 1900s

By the way, I saw your map, I do not know the map of ancient Vietnam was written by the English. Just a map is worth to see, but I ask you to tell me the source, the name of this map, where it comes from ? If there are ancient history books to refer to it, you did not answer me.

We add English recently to the digital version, just because we want people around the world can read this.
The map which has English is called "An Nam đại quốc họa đồ" (Map of the great empire of Annam), released in 1838, Nguyễn dynasty.

Thank you for your participation, but do not declare victory by yourself.

So show me the evidence which tell that Han/Tang/Yuan claimed/set sovereignty over Paracel.

Wikileaks: no bloodshed inside Tiananmen Square, cables claim - Telegraph

OK I will read it.