When did South China Sea become China's "core interest"?

[Đảo Bạch Long Vỹ]

I said, you need to combine the written records, this is a map of the Ming dynasty, they all are the same and written records. The same location, the same name. One thing is important, ZHENHE to use chinese name to describe those islands, if the islands do not belong to the Ming Dynasty, it belongs to other countries, then he will use only the language of those countries, the use of Chinese name, just to show that they are Chinese territory.

What an argument, Vietnamese used "Đài Loan" to call "Taiwan" (since 13th Century when general Lý Long Tường arrived there), so Taiwan is Vietnamese territory? I don't think so

 

[huzihaidao12]

What an argument, Vietnamese used "Đài Loan" to call "Taiwan" (since 13th Century when general Lý Long Tường arrived there), so Taiwan is Vietnamese territory? I don't think so

You know when the earliest Chinese record in Taiwan? AD 230, remember it. With the Chinese way to keep management in Taiwan, starting from the Yuan Dynasty, it has a local Chinese government in Taiwan. Vietnam?

 

[huzihaidao12]

God, I don't think our Dutch friends want to conquer Vietnam in 17xx, because they had lost several times



And I know Chinese, both Vietnamese and Westerners' sources are unbelievable, only Chinese source is believable, ya, so who can beat that argument?

Anyway, want Vietnamese map? Here you are:

1741

1838

Do you need Vietnamese text?


Seem that you guys don't know that fishing and discovering movements are not something legal to claim sovereignty You need to send force to set sovereignty, or at least your gov have to claim sovereignty (like what the Qing did in 1900s)
Vietnam did both of them from at least in 17th, 18th century

Check it: #1504

1, I explained the reasons, I think the West is not enough to map the colonists believe that even they had just entered this land, not enough understanding of Asia, since there is no comprehensive understanding of their judgments are not sure, not to mention that there are a factor in the West their own interests.

2, China's record is credible, because we have the most sophisticated civilization in Asia, but also the most objective history. Ancient Chinese Government is not involved in territorial disputes now, she is a special neutral you tell me why an ancient Chinese Government will lie on the later issues.

The same reason, so I did not say Vietnam's historical record must be fake, but you need to show me and I was also interested to see Vietnam's history. Where?

3, you forgot to France, Vietnam is just a piece of meat in the mouth, the West has been eyeing you up, just a matter of time, do not whisper their awareness of the long-term interests, in that era, history has proved it.

4, you deliberately ignore the information? To see it, China has formally managed from the Tang Dynasty.

789 The Tang Dynasty, China included the Nansha Islands into its administrative map
990 Spratley Islands became a part of the Northern Song area in Hainan
1121 Kublai Khan controlled most of the islands during China's Yuan Dynasty
1211 The island group shown on a Chinese Map
1250 Chinese frishermen became the right by the Pan-Han Dynasty to settle on some of the northern islets and reefs.
1405 Cheng Ho, the official minister of the Ming Kings, visited several northern islands of the Spartly Islands Group, Cheng Ho made several vojages to the Spratly Group and mapped most of the northern reefs and island, today a reason for China, to occupay the complete group. In 1436 an excellent map of the reefs is shown by the Ming-Dynasty.

 

[Đảo Bạch Long Vỹ]

You know when the earliest Chinese record in Taiwan? AD 230, remember it. With the Chinese way to keep management in Taiwan, starting from the Yuan Dynasty, it has a local Chinese government in Taiwan. Vietnam?

Yep, so "set name" is not legal to claim sovereignty, right?

 

[huzihaidao12]

But if one look at this map, he could easily see the two islands but in your maps I could not find any of them. I could only see Hainan as the southernmost part. And one more questions, why China did not take Taiwan. In comparing to these islands, Taiwan is much closer, much bigger, much more value and surely many people could live there.

This is the ancient map. There are also answers to the questions which include Taiwan, but her position has some bias.

´óÃ÷»ìһͼ_°Ù¶È°Ù¿Æ

大明混一图属行政区域图，成图年代为公元1389年（明洪武二十二年），彩绘绢本，图幅尺寸为386×456cm，是一幅大挂图，图内主要表示明朝及邻近地区的各级居民地、山形、河流及其相对位置。居民地均以地名加框的方法定位，其框用不同颜色区别内外所属。此图绘制精美，内容丰富，是一件国宝级的珍贵文物。现藏于中国第一历史档案馆。 　　

这幅明代世界地图，以大明王朝版图为中心，东起日本，西达欧洲，南括爪哇，北至蒙古，是我国目前已知尺寸最大、年代最久远、保存最完好的古代世界地图。《大明混一图》全图没有明显的疆域界限，仅以地名条块的不同颜色，来区别内外所属。图中着重描绘了明王朝各级治所、山脉、河流的相对位置，镇寨堡驿、渠塘堰井、湖泊泽池、边地岛屿以及古遗址、古河道等共计一千余处。 欧洲与非洲地区放大图

我们看这幅地图，感觉与现在最吻合的就是从渤海到海南岛的沿海地形，渤海湾、山东半岛的形状非常接近，水系也很详细。再看长江的位置，也差不多，长江支流水系标示得更详细，鄱阳湖、洞庭湖、太湖三大湖泊清晰可见，这可能跟明王朝初期的统治有很大关系。广东沿海似乎还显示了珠江口的位置，但雷州半岛、海南岛的位置偏西了。台湾岛、澎湖列岛及日本岛的差异较大。
This is the ancient map. There are also answers to the questions which include Taiwan, but her position has some bias.

Incidentally, that it also answer your first question, the color is standard to distinguish the Ming dynasty territory and non-Chinese territory.

Daming mixed a diagram of an administrative area map, mapping years as AD 1389 (Hongwu two years), painting on silk, map sheet size is 386 × 456cm, is a large wall charts, maps, said the Ming Dynasty and adjacent areas mainly at all levels of residential areas, Yamagata, rivers and their relative position. Residents to place names are framed method of positioning, the difference between the inside and outside the box belongs to a different color. This drawing beautifully, rich in content, is a national treasure of precious relics. Now hidden in the First Historical Archives of China.

Ming Dynasty painting a world map to map as the center of the Ming dynasty, east of Japan, west Europe, the South, including Java, north to Mongolia, China's largest known size, the oldest and best preserved of the ancient world map. "Daming mixed a map" the boundaries of the whole graph has no obvious boundaries, only the names of different bar colors to distinguish the respective inside and outside. Focus on the figure depicts a legacy at all levels of the Ming Dynasty, mountains, rivers, the relative position of the town Zhaibao Station, drainage wells ponds, lakes Ze pool, border areas and islands, ancient ruins, the ancient river courses at a total of one thousand. Enlargement of Europe and Africa

We look at this map, feel and now the most consistent is to Hainan Island from the Bohai Sea coastal terrain, Bohai Bay, Shandong Peninsula, the shape is very close to water is also very detailed. Look at the location of the Yangtze River, is similar, the Yangtze River tributaries indicate more detailed, Poyang Lake, Dongting Lake, Taihu Lake is clearly visible three, which may be the rule of the early Ming Dynasty with a great relationship. Guangdong coast seems to show the location of the Pearl River estuary, but the Leizhou Peninsula, west of Hainan Island location. Taiwan Island, Penghu Islands and Japan, the island quite different.

---------- Post added at 07:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:45 PM ----------

Yep, so "set name" is not legal to claim sovereignty, right?

It has a local Chinese government in Taiwan. Please use your eyes, thank you.

 

[Đảo Bạch Long Vỹ]

1, I explained the reasons, I think the West is not enough to map the colonists believe that even they had just entered this land, not enough understanding of Asia, since there is no comprehensive understanding of their judgments are not sure, not to mention that there are a factor in the West their own interests.

God, the Westerners want to conquer Vietnam but don't want to conquer China? Hell, in fact they like China much more than Vietnam (8 nations want to conquer China but only 1 (France) want to conquer Vietnam), so with your argument (Westerners need land), they should say those islands belong to China
In addiction, in early 17th, 18th century, Vietnam was in superb civil wars but still too strong to conquer, Dutch, French had lost every battle they fight with any faction in Vietnam, so I don't think they want to conquer Vietnam that time

It's not understanding or something like that, Westerners came and saw Vietnamese troops there and Vietnamese flags were flying over Paracel, so they wrote what they see. Understand? (Do you need me prove that there are Vietnamese troops and flags there? I'm pleased to prove it if you want)
If some say Paracels belongs to China, some say it belongs to Vietnam, we have to doubt. But in this situation, from English to Dutch, French, German, Portuguese, Spanish, Belgian, American, Italian... all says that Paracel belongs to Vietnam

2, China's record is credible, because we have the most sophisticated civilization in Asia, but also the most objective history. Ancient Chinese Government is not involved in territorial disputes now, she is a special neutral you tell me why an ancient Chinese Government will lie on the later issues.

The same reason, so I did not say Vietnam's historical record must be fake, but you need to show me and I was also interested to see Vietnam's history. Where?

Hell, Vietnamese maps are just up there. Ignore it? Do you also need Vietnamese text?
Neutral? No, China is not neutral, just like Vietnam, they are both in the dispute.
Westerners are neutral, and they said Paracel belongs to Vietnam, poor neutral

3, you forgot to France, Vietnam is just a piece of meat in the mouth, the West has been eyeing you up, just a matter of time, do not whisper their awareness of the long-term interests, in that era, history has proved it.

They want to conquer Vietnam but not China? Oh funny like hell
And there is a lot of Westerners who don't want to conquer Vietnam but also says that Paracel belongs to Vietnam, what do you think?

4, you deliberately ignore the information? To see it, China has formally managed from the Tang Dynasty.

God, I need evidence

789 The Tang Dynasty, China included the Nansha Islands into its administrative map

Where's your map?

990 Spratley Islands became a part of the Northern Song area in Hainan

Who say that?

1121 Kublai Khan controlled most of the islands during China's Yuan Dynasty

Yuan forces passed there in the way to Java?

1211 The island group shown on a Chinese Map

What map? Fisherman's map? Show here.

1250 Chinese frishermen became the right by the Pan-Han Dynasty to settle on some of the northern islets and reefs.

Hell, when "fishing movement" is legal to claim sovereignty?

1405 Cheng Ho, the official minister of the Ming Kings, visited several northern islands of the Spartly Islands Group, Cheng Ho made several vojages to the Spratly Group and mapped most of the northern reefs and island, today a reason for China, to occupay the complete group. In 1436 an excellent map of the reefs is shown by the Ming-Dynasty.

Hell, general Lý Long Tường visited Taiwan too

 

[huzihaidao12]

Taiwan is in US hand, and well protected by US senven fleet, CHinese think they have No chance to win bcz their radar still got heavily jammed by US jammer during 80s .

Then they think fighting with VN to expand thier territory is easier bcz Vn is poor and don't know about Mordern warfare, but they forgot that their weapons have nothing better than US weapons during VN war, and VN resisted being jammed by US in 1972 already.

I said, I have a big restraint on all member threads and Vietnam, because I wanted a rational exchange, but you also knew a little bit better self-evident, please clear it. Again, this is China and the U.S. game, knowing your little self-evident.

 

[huzihaidao12]

During the Tang dynasty, the official part of the Nansha Islands under the jurisdiction of Qiongzhou Government House. Qiongzhou Government House is equivalent to a local Chinese institutions. This is a historical record that there are many names for the Nansha Islands in China, such as "九乳螺洲"、"石塘"、"长沙"、"千里石塘"、"千里长沙"、"万里石塘"、"万里长沙" "Nine milk Beaufort", "Tong,", "Changsha", "Trinidad Shitang", "Trinidad Changsha "," Miles Shitang "," Miles Changsha ".This is a formal management.


Majapahit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hayam Wuruk, also known as Rajasanagara, ruled Majapahit in AD 1350-1389. During this period, Majapahit attained its peak with the help of prime minister, Gajah Mada. Under Gajah Mada's command (AD 1313-1364), Majapahit conquered more territories and become the regional power. According to the book of Nagarakertagama pupuh (canto) XIII and XIV mentioned several states in Sumatra, Malay Peninsula, Borneo, Sulawesi, Nusa Tenggara islands, Maluku, New Guinea, and some parts of Philippines islands as under Majapahit realm of power. This source mentioned of Majapahit expansions has marked the greatest extent of Majapahit empire.



Spratly Islands, where?

You go to prove that, when Java has the Nansha Islands?

 

[Đảo Bạch Long Vỹ]

It has a local Chinese government in Taiwan. Please use your eyes, thank you.

Hell, when?
Taiwan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In conclusion, "set name" is not legal to claim sovereignty, right?

You go to prove that, when Java has the Nansha Islands?

Who said Java has Spartly?

 

[huzihaidao12]

God, the Westerners want to conquer Vietnam but don't want to conquer China? Hell, in fact they like China much more than Vietnam (8 nations want to conquer China but only 1 (France) want to conquer Vietnam), so with your argument (Westerners need land), they should say those islands belong to China
In addiction, in early 17th, 18th century, Vietnam was in superb civil wars but still too strong to conquer, Dutch, French had lost every battle they fight with any faction in Vietnam, so I don't think they want to conquer Vietnam that time

It's not understanding or something like that, Westerners came and saw Vietnamese troops there and Vietnamese flags were flying over Paracel, so they wrote what they see. Understand? (Do you need me prove that there are Vietnamese troops and flags there? I'm pleased to prove it if you want)
If some say Paracels belongs to China, some say it belongs to Vietnam, we have to doubt. But in this situation, from English to Dutch, French, German, Portuguese, Spanish, Belgian, American, Italian... all says that Paracel belongs to Vietnam



Hell, Vietnamese maps are just up there. Ignore it? Do you also need Vietnamese text?
Neutral? No, China is not neutral, just like Vietnam, they are both in the dispute.
Westerners are neutral, and they said Paracel belongs to Vietnam, poor neutral


They want to conquer Vietnam but not China? Oh funny like hell
And there is a lot of Westerners who don't want to conquer Vietnam but also says that Paracel belongs to Vietnam, what do you think?


God, I need evidence


Where's your map?


Who say that?


Yuan forces passed there in the way to Java?


What map? Fisherman's map? Show here.


Hell, when "fishing movement" is legal to claim sovereignty?


Hell, general Lý Long Tường visited Taiwan too

1, the West is neutral? Error, if a person is not the motive to lie, it can be regarded as neutral, West have an incentive to lie in the interests of the colonial era, but the ancient Chinese government has not, it can be anything from a lie, she can predict the future?

2, the Vietnamese need some self-knowledge, you expel the French colonialists, because the Chinese to help you expel the Americans, because Chinese help. Mr. Hu Zhiming to request assistance to China, this is not a fact?

 

[huzihaidao12]

Hell, when?
Taiwan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In conclusion, "set name" is not legal to claim sovereignty, right?



Who said Java has Spartly?

元代在澎湖设立巡检司，并课税。汪大渊《岛夷志略》记载曰，澎湖“地隶晋江县，至元年间，立巡检司”，“职巡逻，专捕获”，兼办“盐课”。

The establishment of the Yuan Dynasty in the Patrol Division to manage Penghu to Taiwan and began to levy taxes.

Wang Ta-yuan, "Yi Zhi Lue Island" records said, Penghu "to scribe Jinjiang County, to the first year, up Inspection Division", "patrol, capture the thieves," and do "Salt."

---------- Post added at 08:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:06 PM ----------

Hell, when?
Taiwan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In conclusion, "set name" is not legal to claim sovereignty, right?



Who said Java has Spartly?

What is your opinion? China has sovereignty over the Spratly Islands and Paracel Islands, we did not ask the sovereignty of all the islands in the world. Why do you bring to Java?

 

[huzihaidao12]

1250 Chinese frishermen became the right by the Pan-Han Dynasty to settle on some of the northern islets and reefs.

Build a home, why would the Chinese porcelain and pottery found in those islands, only fish, you need these?

 

[huzihaidao12]

God, I don't think our Dutch friends want to conquer Vietnam in 17xx, because they had lost several times



And I know Chinese, both Vietnamese and Westerners' sources are unbelievable, only Chinese source is believable, ya, so who can beat that argument?

Anyway, want Vietnamese map? Here you are:

1741

1838

Do you need Vietnamese text?


Seem that you guys don't know that fishing and discovering movements are not something legal to claim sovereignty You need to send force to set sovereignty, or at least your gov have to claim sovereignty (like what the Qing did in 1900s)
Vietnam did both of them from at least in 17th, 18th century

Check it: #1504

On this map, Chinese scholars have questioned.

The Map shown below is claimed as a 1838 (in other resources some say this maps is dated 1834, as shown in the map published by Atlas of Vientnam published in 1999 by Hanoi (Atlat ?ia Lí Viêt Nam / Trung t?m ban ?`? và tranh anh giáo duc.) ,which is map included here.
"However, the Vietnamese classical texts have not provided clear proof of Vietnamese knowledge of the Spratly Islands, let alone the claim.
The few references to Truong Sa almost always identify the islands as part of Hoang Sa - the Paracel Islands. The map of 1838 reveals that the islands lie so close to each other as well as to the Vietnamese coast, that they are practically one island group. The name Van ly Truong
Sa is the same name the Chinese used in acient times for the Paracel Islands."[Lu Ning, Flashpoint Spratlys,Dolphin Trade Press Pte Ltd, Singapore,1995.


Clearly this map can not support Vietnamese so called "historical sovereignty" over the Nansha Islands of China, without more actual proof to support this map itself.

The second figure, Chinese scholars have questioned. The source of the first graph, any member of Vietnam can tell me?

---------- Post added at 08:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 PM ----------

I mean, its name, and its sources in the historical record.

 

[huzihaidao12]

http://bbs.godeyes.cn/upload/2006/05/27/193915.jpg

http://bbs.godeyes.cn/upload/2006/05/27/194050.jpg

Ming dynasty, the other maps, it is clear that including Taiwan.

 

[Đảo Bạch Long Vỹ]

1, the West is neutral? Error, if a person is not the motive to lie, it can be regarded as neutral, West have an incentive to lie in the interests of the colonial era, but the ancient Chinese government has not, it can be anything from a lie, she can predict the future?

2, the Vietnamese need some self-knowledge, you expel the French colonialists, because the Chinese to help you expel the Americans, because Chinese help. Mr. Hu Zhiming to request assistance to China, this is not a fact?

Now, focus on my comment #264
You haven't read a word from that comment.

1250 Chinese frishermen became the right by the Pan-Han Dynasty to settle on some of the northern islets and reefs.

Build a home, why would the Chinese porcelain and pottery found in those islands, only fish, you need these?

Hell, Lý Long Tường also built home for his son in Taiwan
So please forget "build home" argument

元代在澎湖设立巡检司，并课税。汪大渊《岛夷志略》记载曰，澎湖“地隶晋江县，至元年间，立巡检司”，“职巡逻，专捕获”，兼办“盐课”。

The establishment of the Yuan Dynasty in the Patrol Division to manage Penghu to Taiwan and began to levy taxes.

Wang Ta-yuan, "Yi Zhi Lue Island" records said, Penghu "to scribe Jinjiang County, to the first year, up Inspection Division", "patrol, capture the thieves," and do "Salt."

When Lý Long Tường came, there's nothing call "Yuan" my friend
After discuss with you I find out that if you have the right over Paracel with your argument, Vietnam can have the right over ... Taiwan by ... your points

What is your opinion? China has sovereignty over the Spratly Islands and Paracel Islands, we did not ask the sovereignty of all the islands in the world. Why do you bring to Java?

You bring Java here, not me

---------- Post added at 08:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 PM ----------

The second figure, Chinese scholars have questioned. The source of the first graph, any member of Vietnam can tell me?
I mean, its name, and its sources in the historical record.

It's clearly that Vietnamese activities before 20th Century are mostly focus on Paracel, not Spartly. So? Any problem with Paracel or that map?