When did South China Sea become China's "core interest"?

[meocoi]

http://hiphotos.baidu.com/ly19831212/pic/item/806f7bfb93e7ea76034f5618.jpg

I can tell you, because China has continued to this day the notice, without interruption, yes, starting from the HAN dynasty until today, that there is enough history to prove. Controversy is only the colonial era began in the West, because their own interests, the West that these islands are in Vietnam, but in fact, because the Vietnamese part of the West, so those islands belong to the West in the practical sense, but we do not admit it, in other words, we rule that continues to this day for those islands in the South China Sea.

I doubt that. As I has previously given in this forum about a research of Stanford University

Countering Beijing in the South China Sea | Hoover Institution

"China also cites various vague, questionable, and off-point historical writings dating back more than 2,000 years in its attempt to document its claimed sovereignty over the South China Sea.4 Without doubt, Chinese explorers and fisherman sailed the South China Sea for two thousand years, and some recorded their exploits, but it is equally clear that the Chinese traditionally have viewed Hainan Island as the southernmost outpost of their civilization, certainly until the end of the 19th century."

It is true if you look at most of official map of Chinese, all of them give Hainan Island as the southernmost of China. For example:

http://nhansinh.com/tusach/hoangsatruongsa/img/bdt35.jpg

Another example could be found in the map published by Chinese government in Guangxu 20 (1874), they explicitly wrote that the southernmost part of China is Qiongzhou, Guangdong at 18''30' North.

The reason is very easy to understand. The old Chinese empire strictly restricted them to the land, concentrated most of their resources to build an army that could protect them from the army of other countries in the north and west which mostly consisted of cavalry that is quite deadly to Chinese army. Besides, the "Sinocentric ideology" of Chinese made them to believe China is the center of the world with highest civilization, hence there is no need to trade with other countries, China had already got everything to satisfy themselves and the marine route was not their concentration. Another reason is the piracy of the so-called Wokou from 13th to 18th, at many time these pirates made the Chinese along the coast to retreat in to the continental up to 50-100km. On the other hands, if one looked at Spratly and Paracel Islands:

"Neither can Beijing demonstrate that Chinese ever permanently inhabited the Spratly or Paracel Islands, because they are uninhabitable. Many are wholly or intermittently submerged. The ones that are mostly dry lack sources of fresh water, and these low features are seasonally exposed to the monsoons. Today, the only human populations of these islands and reefs are military garrisons maintained at immense expense to their respective governments and at great personal risk to their members."

For old China empire, these islands are very faraway, they have neither strategic resources (oil could not be used then, fish was not specially rich) nor strategic position (they become important only after the rise of Japan, Korea, Taiwan, China...).

All of these give one a question, if the Chinese claim that they possessed these islands for 2000 years, why they need them? Until 19th century, Chinese only concentrate on land force, these islands are uninhabitable, they are faraway, they are expensive to maintain force there, they have little value, they are risky with many storms/cyclones every year, there were many pirates along China coast. So what is the reason? There will be no answer. This explain why the Chinese at least until 19th century only viewed Hainan as their southernmost part because until that time, they do not need these islands at all. China only claimed these islands when its energy policy become very important for the economy. There is much oil and most of its oil tankers pass South China Sea.

 

[meocoi]

1、I gave evidence, this is history records, which came from official records of the Ming dynasty, and even royal records the same as the Qing Dynasty and the Republic of China. Roll can not explain the problem, in addition to show your guilty conscience.

2, China's earliest historical records comes from the Western Han Dynasty (202 BC - AD 9). Book called "Han" under eighteen Volume II, "Geography"

º£ÉÏ˿·̽ÃØ

3, you may not know, and even the Mongolian emperor claimed to be Chinese.

4, I think the connection is no problem.

I think it is the best if you could show some official maps published by Chinese empire during last one thousand years which explicitly showed that Spartly or Paracel islands belong to the empire. The validity of these vague writings is rather low since they could be interpreted in many different ways. The islands mentioned in these writings could be these two islands or it can be any other islands. There is nothing to be sure because there is no precise statement about the position, the appearance or other stuffs.

 

[Đảo Bạch Long Vỹ]

1、I gave evidence, this is history records, which came from official records of the Ming dynasty, and even royal records the same as the Qing Dynasty and the Republic of China. Roll can not explain the problem, in addition to show your guilty conscience.

2, China's earliest historical records comes from the Western Han Dynasty (202 BC - AD 9). Book called "Han" under eighteen Volume II, "Geography"

º£ÉÏ˿·̽ÃØ

3, you may not know, and even the Mongolian emperor claimed to be Chinese.

4, I think the connection is no problem.

1. No doubt Qing dynasty claimed Paracel and Spartly in ... 1900s I know it too, but I asked for Han/Tang/Yuan, not Ming
2. I can't see "Han dynasty claim abcxyz", "Han dynasty set sovereignty over abcxyz" or something like that, just "Mr A discovered abcxyz", "Mr B was fishing in abcxyz", so it's illegal to claim sovereignty P/S: Do not copy paste a bunch of Chinese, English please
3. Ya, no doubt that you guys claimed Mongolian emperors
4. Where is the Ming?

 

[huzihaidao12]

1. No doubt Qing dynasty claimed Paracel and Spartly in ... 1900s I know it too, but I asked for Han/Tang/Yuan, not Ming
2. I can't see "Han dynasty claim abcxyz", "Han dynasty set sovereignty over abcxyz" or something like that, just "Mr A discovered abcxyz", "Mr B was fishing in abcxyz", so it's illegal to claim sovereignty P/S: Do not copy paste a bunch of Chinese, English please
3. Ya, no doubt that you guys claimed Mongolian emperors
4. Where is the Ming?

Han Dynasty

China's earliest historical records comes from the Western Han Dynasty (202 BC - AD 9). Book called "Han" under eighteen Volume II, "Geography" 《汉书 地理志》

Eastern Han Dynasty 杨孚《异物志》


三国(220~280)

三国东吴将领康泰所著《扶南传》不仅提到了南沙群岛，而且对其形态描述道："涨海中，到珊瑚洲，洲底有盘古，珊瑚生其上也。
Three Kingdoms generals Kangtai book "Funan Biography" referred not only to the Nansha Islands, and its shape description: "The rise in the sea, to the Coral Island, Island at the end of a Pangu, coral health on it also.



TANG(618～907) and Song（960~1279）

唐宋时期，社会经济紧莱，对外交往增多，特别是宋初指南针应用于航海以后，在南海的航行和生产更趋频繁。当时对南海的航路以及岛屿的位置、名称等都已有较详细的考察和记载。南宋周去非在《岭南代答》（1178年成书）中载：“…东大洋海，有长沙、石塘数万里”，此中的“长沙”、石塘”指的就是南海诸岛。长沙是以沙岛为主的珊瑚岛，石塘是以环礁为主的珊瑚礁。赵汝适在多方调查询问并参考《岭南代答》的基础上撰写的《诸蕃志》（1225年成书）中指出：“贞元五年（公元789年）以琼为督府，今因之。…至吉阳（今三亚市），乃海之极，亡复陆涂。外有州，曰乌里，曰苏吉浪，南对占城，西望真腊，东则千里长沙、万里石床，渺茫元际，天水一色”，这里不但指出了千里长沙、万里石床是中国的南海诸岛，而且也说明，早在唐代已经将西南中沙群岛划归海南岛的振州（宋时改为吉阳军）管辖。

Tang and Song dynasties, social and economic tight Levin, an increase in foreign relations, especially after the Song Dynasty, the compass used in navigation, sailing in the South China Sea, and production become more frequent. At that time, the South China Sea route and the location of the island, so the name has a more detailed inspection and records. Song weeks to non-in the "Lingnan Pickup" (1178 harvest book) contains: "... the East Ocean Sea, Changsha, Tong, tens of thousands of years," herein "Changsha", Shitang "refers to the South China Sea islands. Changsha is the Milton-based coral islands, atolls Shitang is based coral reef. ZHAO Ru appropriate inquiry and investigation in the multi-reference to "Lingnan pickup" written on the basis of "Zhufan Chi" (1225 harvest book) that : "Sadamoto five years (AD 789 years) to Joan for the Government House, this consequent. ... To Ji Yang (now Sanya), is a very sea, land re-painted death. Outside the state, said Uri, said Suzy Long, South of Champa, facing west toward real wax, is a thousand miles east, Changsha, Wanli stone bed, slim yuan occasion, Tianshui same color, "not only pointed out here, thousands of miles Changsha, Wanli stone bed is South China Sea islands, but also shows that as early as the Tang Dynasty has been placed under the sand islands in the southwest of Hainan Island, the vibration state (to Ji Yang Jun Song) jurisdiction.


MING and QING

明清时期，中国许多图、藉、方志对南海诸岛的记载已经不胜枚举。从地图方面来说，明代郑和“七下西洋”长期航行南海，绘有《郑和航海图》，后载入茅元仪《武备志》。该图标出了石星石塘、万生石塘屿、石塘等岛群名称和相对位置。及至清代陈伦炯《海国闻见录》中的附图《四海总图》，已经明确标绘有四大群岛的地名和位置。当时称东沙群岛为“气沙头”，西沙群岛为“七洲洋”，南沙群岛为“石塘”，中沙群岛为“长沙”。后来，清政府在开展大规模全国地图测量的基础上，编绘了多种地图。在1716年的《大清中外天下全图》、1724年的《清直省分图》、1767年的在《大清万年一统天下全图》、1800年的《清绘府州县厅总图》和1818年的《大清一统天下全图》等等这些官方舆图中，都在海南岛的东南方绘有南海诸岛，列入中国疆域版图。 　　从古籍方面来说，郑和“七下西洋”的随从人员费信著《星槎星览》、马次著《瀛涯胜览》、巩珍著《西洋番国志》等书，其中对南海及南海诸岛的记载留下了宝贵的资料。当时出现的航海著作，如1527年顾蚧的《海槎余录》、黄衷的《海语》等书，对南海航行、岛礁分布及地理特征都有详细的描述。当时出现的海防著作，无不把南海诸岛作为中国海防的“门户”和“天堑”。如十九世纪三十年代的《海防辑要》一书，就把西沙群岛等岛屿列为中国的海防区域。 　　从方志方面来说，明清两代是方志鼎盛的时代，由官方修纂的《广东通志》、《琼州府志》、《万州志》等等许多地方志书，都辑录有西南中沙群岛的资料，列为海南岛的附属岛屿。其《广东通志》中就有：明武宗正德七年（公元1512年）“立海防营于万州”的记载。还可以正德《琼台志》中看出当时已把西沙、南沙群岛作为中国的海防区域。
Ming and Qing dynasties, many of China's map, by, Chronicles of the South China Sea islands have been numerous documented. From the map in terms of Ming Dynasty, Zheng "seven voyages" long-term sailing the South China Sea, painted with the "Zheng He's navigation chart," after Mao load per meter "military preparations annals." The icon is out of the rock star Shitang, Wan-sheng Tong, Yu, Tong, and other island groups, the name and relative position. Jiong Chen Qing Lun up "smell the sea state record" in the photo "The world total map", has made it clear there are four islands plotting place names and location. East Sand Island was called the "gas Sha Tau", Paracel Islands as the "seven-Chau Yang," Nansha Islands as the "Tong," Islands in the Sand "in Changsha." Later, the Qing government in the measurement of large-scale maps of the country, based on the compilation of a variety of maps. In 1716 the "Great Qing foreign world full map," 1724's "clear straight provinces map", in 1767, "Qing years of world domination full map", 1800's "total clean painted House counties Hall map "and 1818's" Qing domination full map ", etc. The official atlas, are painted in the south-east of Hainan Island has the South China Sea islands, the territory included in the Chinese territory. From the ancient ways, Zheng "seven voyages" entourage fee letter with "Xingcha star view" Ma times the "Ying Ya Sheng Lan," Gong Zhen book "Western barbarian Kingdoms" and other
books, including the South China Sea records of the South China Sea islands and left a valuable information. At that time there's navigation works, such as care Kuwana 1527's "Sea cha I recorded," Huang Zhong's "sea language" and other books, sailed the South China Sea, the geographical distribution and characteristics of reefs are described in detail. There was coastal defense works, all the South China Sea Islands as China's coastal defense of the "portal" and "natural moat." Such as 1830's "coastal series to" book, put the Paracel Islands and other islands as China's coastal areas. Terms from Fang Zhi, Ming and Qing dynasties is Fangzhi Ding Sheng era, official Compiling the "Annals of Guangdong", "Qiongzhou Fu Zhi", "Wanzhou chi" and so many parts of the texts, all featuring a sand Island in the southwest information, as a subsidiary of Hainan island. The "Annals of Guangdong" in there: Ming Tsung Masanori seven years (AD 1512), "established in the coastal camp Wanzhou" records. You can also Masanori "Hainan and Taiwan Chi" has seen at Xisha, Nansha Islands as China's coastal areas.

 

[DelhiDareDevil]

The china communist party is not Qing dynasties,

 

[huzihaidao12]

“诞膺景命，奄四海以尊宅；必有美名，绍百王而纪统。肇从隆古，匪独我家。且唐为之言荡也，尧以之而著称；虞之言为乐也，舜因之而作号。驯至禹兴而汤造，互名大夏以殷中。世降以还，事殊非古。虽乘时而有国，不以义而制称。为秦为汉者，著从初起之地名；曰隋曰唐，因即所封之爵邑。是皆徇百姓见闻之狃习，要一时经制之权宜，概以至公，不无少贬。

我太祖圣武皇帝，握乾符而起朔土，以神武而膺帝图，四震天声，大恢土宇，舆图之广，历古所无。顷者，耆宿诣庭，奏章申请，谓既成于大业，易早定于鸿名。在古制以当然，于朕心乎何有。可建国号曰：元。盖取《易经》“乾元”之义。兹大冶流形于庶品，孰名资始之功；予一人底宁于万邦，尤切体仁之要。事从因革，道协天人。于戏！称义而名，固非为之溢美；孚休惟永，尚不负于投艰。嘉与敷天，共隆大号。” -----《建国号诏》元世祖。


“祖宗以神武定四方，淳德御群下。朝廷革创，未逢润色之文；政事变通，渐有纲维之目。朕获赞旧服，载扩丕图，稽列圣之洪规，讲前代之定制。建元表岁，示人君万世之传，；纪时书王，见天下一家之义。法《春秋》之正始，体大《易》之乾元。炳焕皇猷，权舆治道。可自庚申年五月十九日，建元为中统元年。惟即位体元之始，必立经陈纪为先。故内立都省，以总宏纲；外设总司，以平庶政。仍以兴利除害之事，补偏救政之方，随诏以颁。于戏！秉葆握枢，必因时而建号；施仁发政，期与物以更新。敷宣恳恻之辞，表著忧劳之意。凡在臣庶，体予至怀！”

This is the Yuan dynasty (Mongol dynasty) the two edict of the first emperor Kublai Khan, it declares YUAN inherited the old feudal dynasty.

Do you think you are more authoritative than the YUAN emperor?

 

[huzihaidao12]

The china communist party is not Qing dynasties,

Yes, the Republic of China inherited the rights from the Qing Dynasty, PRC inherited the rights from the Republic of China.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

So, where is your evidence? I haven't seen any evidence which prove China ruled Paracel in Han/Tang/Yuan or something like that Do not tell me that your evidence is Chinese was ... fishing there
In fact, China hadn't claimed Paracel until 1900s, or at least the earliest historical record which say that China claim Paracel is in 1900s

\
Ya, I know, I know, you Chinese claim that Genghis Khan is ... Chinese


Dead link

Genghis Khan is not part of the Chinese history, but Kublai Khan is.

Just like William the Conqueror was a French Duke, but meanwhile he was undeniably the first King of England and part of the British history.

 

[Star√ation]

And the baiyue are Chinese, has nothing to do with vietnam. BTW, china can prove that we ruled vietnam for 1000 years directly, so does that mean vietnam is part of china?

Right, this proof seem to be more strong and clear than the proof of ruling the South China Sea. China ruled Vietnam in the Han and Tang dynasty - it's true and base on historical records, so you guys should claim that Vietnam is part of Chinese territory and go to Hanoi to ask for that.

Here is a statement that I particularly write for some Chinese spokesmen read it in the future:"OK, let make it clear every people and every nation in the world, we have strong evidences show that China had ruled Vietnam in the Han and Tang dynasty. For that, we now claim Vietnam as part of Chinese territory, and from now on, Vietnam officially becomes China's core interest"

 

[lonelyship]

To prove who own those islands is as good as talking into deaf ears, for both side the VN show theirs, the Chinese do the same. That can lead to another 100+ page without sloving anything, in the end , both side keep their claim and reject other as long as they have ships to keep those lands.
We witnessed the Russian claim over some islands they take from Japan as survenir from WW2, and some land from Finland because they feel like it
Two communist popaganda at each other...give me pop corn

 

[huzihaidao12]

I doubt that. As I has previously given in this forum about a research of Stanford University

Countering Beijing in the South China Sea | Hoover Institution

"China also cites various vague, questionable, and off-point historical writings dating back more than 2,000 years in its attempt to document its claimed sovereignty over the South China Sea.4 Without doubt, Chinese explorers and fisherman sailed the South China Sea for two thousand years, and some recorded their exploits, but it is equally clear that the Chinese traditionally have viewed Hainan Island as the southernmost outpost of their civilization, certainly until the end of the 19th century."

Wrong, regardless of the Tang Dynasty and YUAN dynasty have enough records to prove, South China's island has been listed as an official territory.

TANG and SONG

宋代赵汝适《诸蕃志》成书,指出：“贞元五年（公元789年）以琼为督府，今因之…至吉阳（今三亚市），乃海之极，亡复陆涂外有州，曰乌里，曰苏吉浪，南对于占城，西望真腊，东则千里长沙、万里石床，渺茫元际，天水一色”，这搭不单指出了千里长沙、万里石床是我国的南沙群岛，而且也申明，早在唐朝已将西南中沙一群岛屿划归海南岛的振州（宋时改成吉阳军）管辖
Song ZHAO Ru appropriate "Zhufan records," a book, said: "Sadamoto five years (AD 789 years) to Joan for the Government House, this lends to Ji Yang ... (now Sanya), is a very sea, dead complex land outside coating there are states, said Uri, said Suzy waves, South for Champa, facing west toward real wax, is a thousand miles east, Changsha, Wanli stone bed, slim yuan occasion, Tianshui same color, "which take not only pointed out the thousands of miles Changsha, Wanli stone bed is China's Nansha Islands, but also stated that as early as the Tang Dynasty has been assigned to a group of islands southwest of Hainan Island in the sand of the vibration state (Song Ji Yang into military) jurisdiction

YUAN

YUAN dynasty is more clear and specific record. YUAN dynasty is more clear and specific record, which is the official official record.


《元史》地理志和《元代疆域图叙》记载元代疆域包括了南沙群岛。其中《元史》记载了元朝海军巡辖了南沙群岛。

"Genshi" Geography and the "classification of the Yuan Dynasty territory map" records, including the Nansha Islands in the Yuan Dynasty territory. The "Genshi" records the Yuan navy patrol jurisdiction of the Nansha Islands.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Right, this proof seem to be more strong and clear than the proof of ruling the South China Sea. China ruled Vietnam in the Han and Tang dynasty - it's true and base on historical records, so you guys should claim that Vietnam is part of Chinese territory and go to Hanoi to ask for that.

Here is a statement that I particularly write for some Chinese spokesmen read it in the future:"OK, let make it clear every people and every nation in the world, we have strong evidences show that China had ruled Vietnam in the Han and Tang dynasty. For that, we now claim Vietnam as part of Chinese territory, and from now on, Vietnam officially becomes China's core interest"

It is a fact, but Vietnam also has a separate history in the long term, those islands do not.As a nation, Vietnam is an independent, China recognizes it, the world recognizes it, but those islands do not.

 

[huzihaidao12]

I doubt that. As I has previously given in this forum about a research of Stanford University

Countering Beijing in the South China Sea | Hoover Institution

"China also cites various vague, questionable, and off-point historical writings dating back more than 2,000 years in its attempt to document its claimed sovereignty over the South China Sea.4 Without doubt, Chinese explorers and fisherman sailed the South China Sea for two thousand years, and some recorded their exploits, but it is equally clear that the Chinese traditionally have viewed Hainan Island as the southernmost outpost of their civilization, certainly until the end of the 19th century."

It is true if you look at most of official map of Chinese, all of them give Hainan Island as the southernmost of China. For example:

http://nhansinh.com/tusach/hoangsatruongsa/img/bdt35.jpg

Another example could be found in the map published by Chinese government in Guangxu 20 (1874), they explicitly wrote that the southernmost part of China is Qiongzhou, Guangdong at 18''30' North.

The reason is very easy to understand. The old Chinese empire strictly restricted them to the land, concentrated most of their resources to build an army that could protect them from the army of other countries in the north and west which mostly consisted of cavalry that is quite deadly to Chinese army. Besides, the "Sinocentric ideology" of Chinese made them to believe China is the center of the world with highest civilization, hence there is no need to trade with other countries, China had already got everything to satisfy themselves and the marine route was not their concentration. Another reason is the piracy of the so-called Wokou from 13th to 18th, at many time these pirates made the Chinese along the coast to retreat in to the continental up to 50-100km. On the other hands, if one looked at Spratly and Paracel Islands:

"Neither can Beijing demonstrate that Chinese ever permanently inhabited the Spratly or Paracel Islands, because they are uninhabitable. Many are wholly or intermittently submerged. The ones that are mostly dry lack sources of fresh water, and these low features are seasonally exposed to the monsoons. Today, the only human populations of these islands and reefs are military garrisons maintained at immense expense to their respective governments and at great personal risk to their members."

For old China empire, these islands are very faraway, they have neither strategic resources (oil could not be used then, fish was not specially rich) nor strategic position (they become important only after the rise of Japan, Korea, Taiwan, China...).

All of these give one a question, if the Chinese claim that they possessed these islands for 2000 years, why they need them? Until 19th century, Chinese only concentrate on land force, these islands are uninhabitable, they are faraway, they are expensive to maintain force there, they have little value, they are risky with many storms/cyclones every year, there were many pirates along China coast. So what is the reason? There will be no answer. This explain why the Chinese at least until 19th century only viewed Hainan as their southernmost part because until that time, they do not need these islands at all. China only claimed these islands when its energy policy become very important for the economy. There is much oil and most of its oil tankers pass South China Sea.

1, this logic is very subjective, it is deliberately distorted and wrong. Yes, China has a wide territory, the islands are no major value to the emperor, but the territory is the territory, you can not change it. Emperor of China a few one hundred women in the harem, some woman is definitely not important to the emperor, but they are still the woman of emperor, you marry them, will be beheaded. those islands as well. Also, you may not know, the Emperor of China total want to show is how broad his territory, because he wanted to remember the history of it, this is his achievement. YUAN emperor had sent the navy to patrol the islands, this is the best proof.

2, the islands can live by fishermen, even if the population can not afford large-scale, some of the islands have enough water， he is wrong， those China remains in those islands is sufficient to illustrate this point.

3, I do not deny that it had no great valuein in the past, but it is still China's islands, we have enough evidence to prove that, in history, YUAN emperor had sent the navy to patrol the islands, this is the best proof.

 

[Viva_Viet]

3, I do not deny that it had no great value, but it is still China's islands, we have enough evidence to prove that, in history, YUAN emperor had sent the navy to patrol the islands, this is the best proof.

Pls , stop make me laugh , YUAN emperor was just like Japan emperor, they invaded CHina, massacred billion CHinese, and robed your land. they tried to attack VN from the sea after that, but they failed.

They tried to robed our land , but we're not weak like CHinese, so they got azz kicked. YUAN emperor had No right over our sea territory

 

[huzihaidao12]

Pls , stop make me laugh , YUAN emperor was just like Japan emperor, they invaded CHina, massacred billion CHinese, and robed your land. they tried to attack VN from the sea after that, but they failed.

They tried to robed our land , but we're not weak like CHinese, so they got azz kicked. YUAN emperor had No right over our sea territory

Oh? Why I did not see the ancient Vietnamese Government have any objection in YUAN Navy in the South China Sea? It just shows that Vietnam to protect their own territory, but those islands do not belong to Vietnam, so Vietnam has no objection.