When Charlie Hebdo Denied Freedom of Expresion to its Cartoonist

[gambit]

Voltaire was prosecuted and hunted down by the Church clergy for his views. So you believe in freedom of expression...please allow me to then write vulgar things about your mother in this forum.

Allow ? To 'allow' implies control in the first place. Do I control your mouth ? You speak as you see fit. Do I control your hand ? You write whatever you want. So please insult away. Say the nastiest things you can think up about all the female relatives in my family. Further, this is an anonymous Internet forum, which make your attempt to turn the table laughable. How is anyone able to know the ID of the person who insulted the female members of his family ?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

We know it man, there is no absolute freedom of speech in Europe. Especially when it comes to WWII events or anything remotely related to a certain religious community.

But that still doesn't give anyone any right to murder people (even those media persons who are equally extremists and f* ed up in their minds to spread hatred).

The best way to protest is using your legal right with your pen and using right of protest, bycott etc.

I sincerely hope that Muslims focus on more important things in life than these. These media goons won't stop, this is their bread and butter. Lets learn from our Chinese friends, completely ignore these hate mongers in media and concentrate on your nation building..

We must all unite against any form of extremism, we are already wittnessing what kind of havoc it is spreading in our own country..

this post deserves a positive rating.
hats off to you I cant add anything to it.

 

[Rasengan]

Allow ? To 'allow' implies control in the first place. Do I control your mouth ? You speak as you see fit. Do I control your hand ? You write whatever you want. So please insult away. Say the nastiest things you can think up about all the female relatives in my family. Further, this is an anonymous Internet forum, which make your attempt to turn the table laughable. How is anyone able to know the ID of the person who insulted the female members of his family ?

On the contrary most individuals in this Forum would complain to the moderators in the conduct of my correspondence for the usage of vulgar language and I will be banned as a consequence....therefore use some common sense or is your brain normally inert by nature because your a red-neck? Henceforth, I requested him to allow me to abuse his mother so that I can see his reaction. Your response would be totally different, if I abused your mother in front of your face and made her cry.

You believe in Freedom of expression, however you did not respect the mandate of the Palestinian people, when they elected Hamas in Gaza...democracy and liberty was thrown outside. Fortunately, America is declining and like the old saying goes "out with the old..in with the new"

 

[Dubious]

Morals? There is hardly anything more subjective than morals... Your morals might tell you that you cant criticize certain figures because they are too "holy" and "sacred" ... but my morals tell me that rational thinking and my fundamental rights always come first! I have no problems whatsoever criticizing any person (dead or alive) for actions/thoughts/words which I think are wrong.

1stly, 90% of the things I have said on this thread even on this forum is usually NOT about me!

2ndly, No morals are morals...then there are those lacking morals...I dont insult people's religious figures not for fun not to provoke...

And what about hypocrisy? You are free to file a complaint against somebody if you feel that he/she has done something wrong to you.
The court will decide according to the law.

Yea same courts who are too afraid to call a white *** a terrorist but prefer calling him psychologically unstable! When the courts remove such a mask maybe people will trust them more...

THEN AGAIN we ARE talking about terrorists! No idea why you want to compare an extremist to a normal person who WOULD go to the courts?!

And so it happened with the French cartoonist Sine you are constantly referring to. And yes, the magazine did made a mistake on firing him and it was wrong. Thats why they had to pay him a hefty compensation!!!

So after all justice has been delivered.

If you call a person extremist ...treat him like one! Meaning YOUR IDEA of justice doesnt equate to their idea of Justice!

 

[Koovie]

1stly, 90% of the things I have said on this thread even on this forum is usually NOT about me!

2ndly, No morals are morals...then there are those lacking morals...I dont insult people's religious figures not for fun not to provoke...

1.) Your (in this case) = one.
I was not referring to any particular person

2.) No, there are no universal morals. And no, its not about merely making fun about something or provoking (which is the thing cartoonists are aiming for) its about being able to criticize anyone you want!

I do not believe that Muhamad was God sent, I do not agree to his violent methods and I am free to criticize him for that. And if somebody feels to depict these feelings in a cartoon, he is free to do so. If somebody feels offended by that, either answer to it by lawful means (talk, letters or whatever) or just suck it up and ignore it. Otherwise get the f*** out of that society before one gets stupid ideas (like the terrorist scum who were sent to hell today).

Yea same courts who are too afraid to call a white *** a terrorist but prefer calling him psychologically unstable! When the courts remove such a mask maybe people will trust them more...

What? Which terrorist are you talking about?! I was talking about Sine, a cartoonist.

1
If you call a person extremist ...treat him like one! Meaning YOUR IDEA of justice doesnt equate to their idea of Justice!

My idea of justice complies with the one of many democratic, secular and modern nations. If one does not apply with the laws either shut up and act like every other citizen or move out.. Otherwise face the consequences.

 

[Dubious]

1.) Your (in this case) = one.
I was not referring to any particular person

Good to know that cleared out!

2.) No, there are no universal morals. And no, its not about merely making fun about something or provoking (which is the thing cartoonists are aiming for) its about being able to criticize anyone you want!

That is exactly how people justify murder...They dont follow universal rights and wrongs...which do exist anyone denying them really is looking for a loop hole to justify their actions!

You do admit they were poking around!
Able to criticize ONLY is applicable when you have read/ have knowledge in the area...Otherwise the village illiterate does the same ....criticizing without knowledge!

There is a fine line between criticism and bashing! When you allow criticism of 1 thing (joking about religious figures in this magazine) BUT PREVENT it when it is attached to your sentiments (joking about the son of a president going to convert to Judaism)....that is hypocrisy and shouldnt be hidden!

Hypocrites dont deserve the right to criticize esp when they cant tolerate it when it is aimed at them and then PRETEND to be a symbol of freedom of expression!

I do not believe that Muhamad was God sent, I do not agree to his violent methods and I am free to criticize him for that.

Again if you dont believe him why criticize him?
If you did know a thing about him you would know he wasnt violent...The need to criticize something you dont know is a sign of stupidity.... It is waht it is

And if somebody feels to depict these feelings in a cartoon, he is free to do so.

Sure but same magazine cant take one to court over another joke...Why was that son of president offended (1 person) as compared to many other religious people?? Why is the sentiments of 1 person a big deal ...Not asking the court but the magazine responsible who acted for 1 person but didnt think twice about religious people...If you still cant see money in the equation then there isnt much left to say!

If somebody feels offended by that, either answer to it by lawful means (talk, letters or whatever) or just suck it up and ignore it. Otherwise get the f*** out of that society before one gets stupid ideas (like the terrorist scum who were sent to hell today).

Are you trying to tell this to extremists? If you want to reason with them dont call them extremists...If you call them extremists why reason with them? I really dont get this aching need for people to broad paint everyone!

What? Which terrorist are you talking about?! I was talking about Sine, a cartoonist.

I am talking about the incident! Had a white man gone around shooting would he go to court or his religion? Answer that much!

My idea of justice complies with the one of many democratic, secular and modern nations. If one does not apply with the laws either shut up and act like every other citizen or move out.. Otherwise face the consequences.

Why are you comparing yourself to an extremist or are you telling me you are an extremist and since your idea is so and so ...so should those who do these crimes coz you both are extremists?
Seriously make sense!

 

[Koovie]

Good to know that cleared out!
That is exactly how people justify murder...They dont follow universal rights and wrongs...which do exist anyone denying them really is looking for a loop hole to justify their actions!

You do admit they were poking around!
Able to criticize ONLY is applicable when you have read/ have knowledge in the area...Otherwise the village illiterate does the same ....criticizing without knowledge!

There is a fine line between criticism and bashing! When you allow criticism of 1 thing (joking about religious figures in this magazine) BUT PREVENT it when it is attached to your sentiments (joking about the son of a president going to convert to Judaism)....that is hypocrisy and shouldnt be hidden!

Hypocrites dont deserve the right to criticize esp when they cant tolerate it when it is aimed at them and then PRETEND to be a symbol of freedom of expression!

Again if you dont believe him why criticize him?
If you did know a thing about him you would know he wasnt violent...The need to criticize something you dont know is a sign of stupidity.... It is waht it is
Sure but same magazine cant take one to court over another joke...Why was that son of president offended (1 person) as compared to many other religious people?? Why is the sentiments of 1 person a big deal ...Not asking the court but the magazine responsible who acted for 1 person but didnt think twice about religious people...If you still cant see money in the equation then there isnt much left to say!
Are you trying to tell this to extremists? If you want to reason with them dont call them extremists...If you call them extremists why reason with them? I really dont get this aching need for people to broad paint everyone!

I am talking about the incident! Had a white man gone around shooting would he go to court or his religion? Answer that much!

Why are you comparing yourself to an extremist or are you telling me you are an extremist and since your idea is so and so ...so should those who do these crimes coz you both are extremists?
Seriously make sense!

This is getting messed up...

So let me make my point clear again and streamline this discussion:

1.) In a secular democracy, every citizen has the right to criticize or depict anyone. Whether it makes sense or not in somebody elses eyes or whether the person/company publishing controversial stuff is a "hypocrite" or not does not matter and is a personal thing and a different topic... because the right to do so is fundamental.

2.) So if you do not like it you are free to criticize the publisher, you are free to argue with him or you can file a complaint against him ...everything is fine as long as you stick to the law.

But you cannot tell him to stop just because your religion tells you that its forbidden. And that argument will certainly not work in a court hearing simply because a secular nation cannot put religious laws before fundamental rights.

3.) If somebody still cannot live with those options and gets dangerous ideas, he will be seen as a threat to the democratic and secular structure and will have to face the consequences.
.... or else something terrible like yesterdays senseless murders will happen again...

 

[Dubious]

This is getting messed up...

So let me make my point clear again and streamline this discussion:

1.) In a secular democracy, every citizen has the right to criticize or depict anyone. Whether it makes sense or not in somebody elses eyes or whether the person/company publishing controversial stuff is a "hypocrite" or not does not matter and is a personal thing and a different topic... because the right to do so is fundamental.

And it is my right as an educated person to challenge it instead of blindly accepting BS! I challenge why this "right to criticized" stopped at the son of a president? The very fact that the same magazine fired him shows their hypocrisy and that just overrights any BS on freedom of speech if you have borders for somethings and then claim FREEDOM OF SPEECH/ EXPRESSION for all...why does ALL stop at their interest?

Hypocrisy does matter! When you hail freedom for all in a democratic state and manipulate it tweaking it ...its called a lie! And is really the end of democracy as well as equality!

To criticize:
indicate the faults of (someone or something) in a disapproving way.
form and express a judgement of (a literary or artistic work).

BOTH can ONLY be done when you have knowledge on the subject!

How can you point out faults without knowing what you are pointing out? How can you "disapprove" something you have no knowledge about?

Judgement...Dont they go around saying dont judge all whites to be racist but want to hold the broad judgmental brush? Again judgement can ONLY be passed if you have some knowledge...

OTHERWISE

THAT is called making a fool of one's self and that is at play in Europe right now! No secret!

2.) So if you do not like it you are free to criticize the publisher, you are free to argue with him or you can file a complaint against him ...everything is fine as long as you stick to the law. But you cannot tell him to stop just because your religion tells you that its forbidden. And that argument will certainly not work in a court hearing simply because a secular nation cannot put religious laws before fundamental rights.

FOR THIS POINT I have repeatedly said this: I am free to do that...But we are talking about extremists??...Again I UNDERSTAND you dont even know what that is but use that word so often!
Why call an extremist an extremist and expect him to abide by the law...the very reason he is called an extremist is coz he FOLLOWS NO LAW!

3.) If somebody still cannot live with those options and gets dangerous ideas, he will be seen as a threat to the democratic and secular structure and will have to face the consequences.
.... or else something terrible like yesterdays senseless murders will happen again...

No if someone bends the very laws they make, they at the same time make people take the law in their own hands hence go to the extreme side = extremists! Are they right or wrong is not what I am saying (provoking is never right and jumping about with a gun isnt either)...I am only pointing out 2 wrongs do not do a right but they are being done!

And I am pointing out BOTH wrong!


Now answer me 1 question where the heck do you get such weapons in France? Europe has weapon policies..one doesnt pick them from the streets that easily!

 

[I.R.A]

So if we bomb Iran every time a bunch of Iranians burn the US flag, a thing that many Americans hold dear, would that be fine with you ?

Sorry man we cannot have this discussion, it will be very difficult for me to explain it to you, you can say we have lots of cultural differences. You view Flag (a piece of cloth to be respected) and for me human relations take priority.

By the way US flag is I believe made in China, and China is not viewed very good in eyes of US or its citizens.

 

[I.R.A]

It is no brainer to see who is having the problem. And oh~ before you spew something about censorship and hypocrisy about "anti-semitism",

Spew??? before lecturing me ______ just go through my post and point out where it suggests that I have spewed something, or my post was biased?? Or where did I try to suggest anything about censorship or antisemitism????

You said
"SATIRE is not insult~ this is where most Muslims fail to understand. Satire is a opiniated mockery based on actual events so that the one being mocked get the message for improvement."

Yeah it is not difficult to see who is having problem to understand that you can live without hurting or provoking others feelings, people from foreign culture need to realize that it is none of their f**king business every time to mock or interfere in others beliefs. If you are so offended by Muslim world or any other religion keep yourself to shit hole where you live do not go places and try to change their culture or make fun of their beliefs. And same goes for any Muslim who is living in West and is trying to change or complains about Western culture, those dick heads should have considered the cultural gap before leaving their home towns.

I am a Muslim and by God if I have to enter a Hindu temple or a Church or a Synagogue or any other religious place, I will afford all those places the same respect as a Hindu or a Christian or a Jew would, because I understand that my non responsible idiotic attitude can hurt people who hold these places holy to them. Come out of your "our way of life is better than others" complex and act mature, sensible and responsible. You must be new in the world but these cultures and religions have been here long before even you were conceived. I would again say Freedom of speech does not give me any right to insult / mock or hurt others feelings because I am no better than any other period.

 

[I.R.A]

I will tell you how big hypocrites you Pakistanis are.. In your country the peaceful ( when I say peaceful i literally mean peaceful) minority are killed/tortured using blasphemy laws. Is that not wrong? did you guys go to street demanding your govt to take back those blasphemy laws or do you want your minorities to pickup arms are start killing you left, right and center. Talk is cheap do something in your own backyard before acting overly righteous and advising others.

Look who is talking. At least we have a law unlike India where you can go on roaming free to burn churches, attack golden temple and bring down mosques. And these attacks are not limited to burning these places your all righteous people burn the priests, women, children and men too.

Come back for lecturing us Pakistanis when you yourself go to street and demand justice for this mistreatment of minority in your country.

 

[DrawingDead]

A few years old news but very relevant today:



PS: Dedicated to all the Pakistanis who were like shah sai ziada shah kai wafadar after what happened in Paris a day ago.

But you do see the difference, right? They fired the guy and sued him. They didn't go on a murderous rampage like you guys do.

 

[Saho]

 

[Koovie]

And it is my right as an educated person to challenge it instead of blindly accepting BS! I challenge why this "right to criticized" stopped at the son of a president? The very fact that the same magazine fired him shows their hypocrisy and that just overrights any BS on freedom of speech if you have borders for somethings and then claim FREEDOM OF SPEECH/ EXPRESSION for all...why does ALL stop at their interest?

Hypocrisy does matter! When you hail freedom for all in a democratic state and manipulate it tweaking it ...its called a lie! And is really the end of democracy as well as equality!

To criticize:
indicate the faults of (someone or something) in a disapproving way.
form and express a judgement of (a literary or artistic work).

BOTH can ONLY be done when you have knowledge on the subject!

How can you point out faults without knowing what you are pointing out? How can you "disapprove" something you have no knowledge about?

Judgement...Dont they go around saying dont judge all whites to be racist but want to hold the broad judgmental brush? Again judgement can ONLY be passed if you have some knowledge...

OTHERWISE

THAT is called making a fool of one's self and that is at play in Europe right now! No secret!

1.) Again, the magazine is free to decide what to publish or not. Whether its right in our eyes or not does not in any way affect their freedom of expression. The question whether its hypocrisy or not does not affect their personal freedom!
And again, firing the cartoonist was unlawful and thus punished in the end.

And the same goes for your second point: Yes, I agree.... it does not look smart if you criticize without having any knowledge on the matter... but again, nobody can take away your right to do so! Period.

I have not read the Qaran. But I do know about the armed conflicts in which Muhamad took part and the notion of the "holy" war.. which are both points which I totally disagree with (to put it mild!!!!).

So in general (not referring to magazine), being hypocritical or talking without knowledge does not look smart in my or your eyes... BUT its nowhere written that doing so takes away your fundamental rights.

Period. There is nothing more to say on this!

FOR THIS POINT I have repeatedly said this: I am free to do that...But we are talking about extremists??...Again I UNDERSTAND you dont even know what that is but use that word so often!
Why call an extremist an extremist and expect him to abide by the law...the very reason he is called an extremist is coz he FOLLOWS NO LAW!

Now I dont know why you are talking about the extremists. I was talking about the publishers and those who feel offended. Obviously extremists might not use allowed methods and will break the law... but then they will suffer the consequences as seen yesterday.

No if someone bends the very laws they make, they at the same time make people take the law in their own hands hence go to the extreme side = extremists! Are they right or wrong is not what I am saying (provoking is never right and jumping about with a gun isnt either)...I am only pointing out 2 wrongs do not do a right but they are being done!

And I am pointing out BOTH wrong!

In which way are they bending the law ? Explain further!

Now answer me 1 question where the heck do you get such weapons in France? Europe has weapon policies..one doesnt pick them from the streets that easily!

I can obviously not tell you before the investigations are over... but the black market seems to be the likely source since getting them in by sea or land is quite difficult, but not impossible.

How is this related to the topic here?

 

[Developereo]

But that still doesn't give anyone any right to murder people

I don't think anyone (sane) is justifying murder.

The point of this thread, as I understand, is to highlight the hypocrisy of the "freedom of speech" mantra. The fact is that European countries have all sorts of restrictions to protect their sensibilities. Whether those sensibilities are religious or not is irrelevant. The point is that the sensibilities exist and are protected.

Debating that hypocrisy should be freedom of speech, but it will quickly be shouted down as being apologists for the murderers.