Whats PAF thinking ?

[GURU DUTT]

You suggested it that all your aircraft are available to fight an air war with PAF.
Here is a reasonable outlook..

IAF can not deploy all her MKI's on the West. these aircraft are also required to counter China. Realistically what can be fielded shall be discussed.

1) Mig 21's
2) JAGs
3) M2K's
4) 50 MKIs incase Mig 29's are unavailable.

Mig 21 is an intercepter and good for point defence hence will not play any thing other then defencive role other than to counter PAF attacks.

JAGs' and M2K's will be used to attack under the cover of MKI or Mig 29's.

Most of the attacks will not be carried by flying directly over land in case of south region rather will be done over the sea using jags and mig 29s. This is the reason Mirage 3 /5 will be at par with the attacking aircraft along with JF-17's.

The attacks on the north will be focussed on mirages and Mig 29's also defending mig21's. This is where F-7's and F-7pg along with JF-17 and F-16 are adequate to counter any attack.

You have to understand that air war will be supported by SAMs so it is not that easy.

Now you add all these IAF aircraft and see what you get...

You know well PAF is more or less trying to protect her airspace in that they have designed themselves.

well MKIs are not for pakistan for pakistan Jaguars andf Mig21s and M2ks & Mig29s are more than enough cause depth of pakistan is not that we require long range rafale or MKIs for there neither do we need any air craft acrriers for blocking either gawadar or karachi port

and as per your dream squences even if some how 50 mig 29s dont come still there will 13 there for dfensive role and Jaguars darin3 upgrades which are done are getting IRST VWR and I Derby ER BVR missile with AL 2052 AESA radar (yes jaguar is going to be the first indian fighter to sport a israeli AESA radar)

do you know how many air bases you have and what is there distance from indian border and distance from indian missile sites and how much time it takes for a mach 2.3 bhramos with range of 450km(real range in beleived to be 500 km ) to reach any target in pakistan and what defences you have against it ?

we are prepairng for a two front war for last 50 years and all our preparations are on those lines so do not think we are a bit worried worry about yourself cause 18 Blk 52 and 42 blk40 F16s and some 70 JF17s and some 150 combined F7 & Mirages cannot fight of 54 upgraded M2Ks + 63 upgraded Mig29s + 126 Bisons +126s Jagiars and some 40 Mig 27s in reserve force thenthere will be Tejas also for homeland security

which means all of the MKIs and rafales and possibally even FGFAs might go to defend china theater i say thats fair enough fight

 

[messiach]

Four decades of R&D in fab-tech devel. and we can see one chinese jet/airliner after another. PAF recognised the potential but bit late in the day. F16 was nicknamed 'toy' by colleagues at chengdu - a polite gesture. A foreign fighter jet with strings attached is not worth more than a toy on the tarmac. No one knows that more than PAF.

Hi,
When you keep waiting for the best of the best---you neither get the best---nor do you get the second best---.

 

[YeBeWarned]

Lol what jealousy did it related anything other from facts

Fact is your jf-17 even with 80 aircraft's lacks decent HMDS and HOBS

and that same Air craft is close to becoming Back-bone for same Air force who make your Air force Run with their Tail between their legs in every war .. and at least we have many functional Sq's unlike your hanger Queen Tejas , which is still in hangers after decades and decades of Failure

@Windjammer bhai yeh phir a gaya , bateen corror ki , dukan pakoron ki

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

well MKIs are not for pakistan for pakistan Jaguars andf Mig21s and M2ks & Mig29s are more than enough cause depth of pakistan is not that we require long range rafale or MKIs for there neither do we need any air craft acrriers for blocking either gawadar or karachi port

and as per your dream squences even if some how 50 mig 29s dont come still there will 13 there for dfensive role and Jaguars darin3 upgrades which are done are getting IRST VWR and I Derby ER BVR missile with AL 2052 AESA radar (yes jaguar is going to be the first indian fighter to sport a israeli AESA radar)

do you know how many air bases you have and what is there distance from indian border and distance from indian missile sites and how much time it takes for a mach 2.3 bhramos with range of 450km(real range in beleived to be 500 km ) to reach any target in pakistan and what defences you have against it ?

we are prepairng for a two front war for last 50 years and all our preparations are on those lines so do not think we are a bit worried worry about yourself cause 18 Blk 52 and 42 blk40 F16s and some 70 JF17s and some 150 combined F7 & Mirages cannot fight of 54 upgraded M2Ks + 63 upgraded Mig29s + 126 Bisons +126s Jagiars and some 40 Mig 27s in reserve force thenthere will be Tejas also for homeland security

which means all of the MKIs and rafales and possibally even FGFAs might go to defend china theater i say thats fair enough fight

What you are not understanding is not all you assists be available in case of war.

IAF will not field all 63 mig-29, 54 M2K, 126 mig-21, 126 JAG's and the 40 mig-27 to invade Pakistan. Even if a hand full of PAF aircraft enter Indian airspace they will be enough to cause massive damage to the bases these aircraft have take off from.

To protect Indian Airspace if MKI's are deployed then the Eastern front becomes defenceless. This is the real picture.

Now coming back to what India can afford to deploy is 60% of the force, out of which 40% will be used for attack and the remaining as decoy. Now you do the maths and see how many aircraft are these. The remaining 30% will be defending Indian air space 10% will be reserves.

Rough calculations put IAF fleet to be 280 aircraft without the 126 Mig-21's. Mig-21's will not attack but defend Indian Airspace.

At the most 160-180 aircraft can be deployed for the first mission provided every thing is in order. Now if we split this by decoy and the attacking aircraft then the numbers fall far below. Not to mention Mig 29 are also deployed on the aircraft carries hence they will not be available. The reserve aircraft will also require time to come back into active service which further reduces the strength.

What are the odds of survival as the surviving aircraft will be used for second or third strike depending on serviceability. Lets assume loss factor of 50% for the invading force then you can calculate how many strikes can be done. Where as mission success rate is 60%, this will be the best outcome. where as in later strikes mission success rate will decrease and losses increase.

Note that this is based on a bombing missions not air superiority. If IAF plans for Air Superiority then it will require more aircraft.

IAF will be master of Rafale & F-16's lets say another 5-7 yrs (if the deal is finalised today). As far as FGFA is not even on the drawing board so please avoid talking about them as it shows desperation and immaturity.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

India has bit more it can chew this time around

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Tactics win battles---but tactics with assets win wars.

The reason that pakistan won this time was that Sarfraz and co went in with the mindset of winning the trophy with assets in hand.

The other superstars like Misbah---SAfridi---Hafeez---Azhar would go in like---" I think we will qualify till quarter final or I think we can get into the semi finals ".

Sarfraz had the assets in his bowling attack.

Why was Mohammad Amir not given the ball in the middle overs---was it to prevent him for getting a 5 for----?

It made no sense to bowl the spinners when they started getting thrashed.

And why did M Amir not get the real praise from the coach and the captain that he deserved----he was the match winner and not Hasan Ali or Fakhar Zaman.

 

[singlefighter]

10 pages of debate or fictional biased bull crap.

On paper Pakistan is outnumbered 3 to 1 in modern 4th generation jets.

Pakistan has far less training hours and training ammo as they work with one fifth budget of Indian pilots

Pakistan has far less numbers of modern radars and missles

So you are relying on
Fictions superior training
Pilot to plane ratio
Tactics
Pure luck
Chinease join the war

There are no more options beyond this

First of it's missiles not missles .what the problem with you indians,we have 100 jets or we have 1000 jets. Any problem with you? Just go and do your own work

 

[GURU DUTT]

What you are not understanding is not all you assists be available in case of war.

IAF will not field all 63 mig-29, 54 M2K, 126 mig-21, 126 JAG's and the 40 mig-27 to invade Pakistan. Even if a hand full of PAF aircraft enter Indian airspace they will be enough to cause massive damage to the bases these aircraft have take off from.

To protect Indian Airspace if MKI's are deployed then the Eastern front becomes defenceless. This is the real picture.

Now coming back to what India can afford to deploy is 60% of the force, out of which 40% will be used for attack and the remaining as decoy. Now you do the maths and see how many aircraft are these. The remaining 30% will be defending Indian air space 10% will be reserves.

Rough calculations put IAF fleet to be 280 aircraft without the 126 Mig-21's. Mig-21's will not attack but defend Indian Airspace.

At the most 160-180 aircraft can be deployed for the first mission provided every thing is in order. Now if we split this by decoy and the attacking aircraft then the numbers fall far below. Not to mention Mig 29 are also deployed on the aircraft carries hence they will not be available. The reserve aircraft will also require time to come back into active service which further reduces the strength.

What are the odds of survival as the surviving aircraft will be used for second or third strike depending on serviceability. Lets assume loss factor of 50% for the invading force then you can calculate how many strikes can be done. Where as mission success rate is 60%, this will be the best outcome. where as in later strikes mission success rate will decrease and losses increase.

Note that this is based on a bombing missions not air superiority. If IAF plans for Air Superiority then it will require more aircraft.

IAF will be master of Rafale & F-16's lets say another 5-7 yrs (if the deal is finalised today). As far as FGFA is not even on the drawing board so please avoid talking about them as it shows desperation and immaturity.

point is why do you keep estimating to keep certain aircratfs of IAF out of the frame like some times its 50 Mig 29s or some tiimes its 126 Mig21s... well forget all that point is india also has 45 Mig29K & KUBs for its aircraft carrier fleet aswell so do not worry and some specialiesd shore based 42 jaguars naval attacks so lets not deviate here and only concentrate on land based attacks om not bringing in rafale or F16s cause since 2019 dilliverry of rafale will start and within three years iut will be completed as for F16s we are going for a two pronged procuremnt policy so lets not go there

now for indian air force on western border only 126 jaguars with EL2052 AESA with DASH 2 HMDS & IRST& Python5 VWR's and I Derby ER BVR combo is more than enough(jaguar is also indias first strike & SEAD /DEAD fighter and offical neuk carrier ) for anything PAF has then to back it upthere are 53 upgraded M2Ks and 63 upgraded Mig29 and for your informayion Mr ACE OF AIR 126 upgraded Mig 21 Bisons are POINT DEFNCE(goalkeeper/last line of internal air defnce) fighters of IAF meaning they are for homeland defnce only (and LCA will replce them only in this role only)

so the thing is we are not botherred about MKIs/super sukhoi's or rafales or FGFAs for pakistan they are for north eastern sector rest you can speculate yourself

 

[Hassan Guy]

On paper Pakistan is outnumbered 3 to 1 in modern 4th generation jets.

Mirage ROSE aircraft can be considered 4th gen, they will stay in service into the 2020's.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/capabilities-of-paf-dassault-mirage-iii-v.44991/

Pakistan has far less training hours and training ammo

PAF see's plenty of fly time, from 2011 to mid-2016 JF-17 accumulated 19,000 operational flight hours. Plus, they have simulators.

they work with one fifth budget of Indian pilots

IAF has more types of aircraft, and they are harder to maintain. The cost per hour to fly planes the IAF has is way higher compared to the planes PAF has. Plus, local MRO is done on F-7's, Mirages, F-16 engines, and of course JF-17.

 

[wiseone2]

What you are not understanding is not all you assists be available in case of war.

IAF will not field all 63 mig-29, 54 M2K, 126 mig-21, 126 JAG's and the 40 mig-27 to invade Pakistan. Even if a hand full of PAF aircraft enter Indian airspace they will be enough to cause massive damage to the bases these aircraft have take off from.

To protect Indian Airspace if MKI's are deployed then the Eastern front becomes defenceless. This is the real picture.

Now coming back to what India can afford to deploy is 60% of the force, out of which 40% will be used for attack and the remaining as decoy. Now you do the maths and see how many aircraft are these. The remaining 30% will be defending Indian air space 10% will be reserves.

Rough calculations put IAF fleet to be 280 aircraft without the 126 Mig-21's. Mig-21's will not attack but defend Indian Airspace.

At the most 160-180 aircraft can be deployed for the first mission provided every thing is in order. Now if we split this by decoy and the attacking aircraft then the numbers fall far below. Not to mention Mig 29 are also deployed on the aircraft carries hence they will not be available. The reserve aircraft will also require time to come back into active service which further reduces the strength.

What are the odds of survival as the surviving aircraft will be used for second or third strike depending on serviceability. Lets assume loss factor of 50% for the invading force then you can calculate how many strikes can be done. Where as mission success rate is 60%, this will be the best outcome. where as in later strikes mission success rate will decrease and losses increase.

Note that this is based on a bombing missions not air superiority. If IAF plans for Air Superiority then it will require more aircraft.

IAF will be master of Rafale & F-16's lets say another 5-7 yrs (if the deal is finalised today). As far as FGFA is not even on the drawing board so please avoid talking about them as it shows desperation and immaturity.

There are 200+ Su-30 MKIs. They can be split to fight in multiple theaters

 

[Sameer25]

So my question is, what is PAF planning for the future. This has me worried.
So the IAF is currently getting French rafales, better Su-30MKIs and developing other 5th gen fighter. Right now the PAF only has some f-16s that can combat those planes. The JF-17 isnt quite at that lvl. Im excited for the Block 3 because it has AESA, Mach 2.0 and other awesome feature, but what is pakistan going to get something other than the J-31. We cant get American Planes because relationships arent doing so well. So is pakistan just gonna stand on the sidelines and watch the IAF get 10 years ahead of us?

 

[Hassan Guy]

We cant get American Planes because relationships arent doing so well.

Sometimes we can...

 

[Sameer25]

We can get some.

there no point, they will turn on us anyways. For example F-16s are pakistans main fighter and they offer better F-16s to india saying that they are better than pakistani f-16s and offering them f-35s in the future

 

[Knightrider]

I think paf should also go for some french aircrafts like rafale

 

[Sameer25]

I think paf should also go for some french aircrafts like rafale

i dont think they will do that