Whats PAF thinking ?

[GURU DUTT]

the base t-50 will start production late 2018 no the fgfa. why bring in israel?
the cost of the f16 is down bu the base blk70 is not even developed, its just a poster and expect a $80+ million price tag.
as for the f16 deal the idea is to make the blk70 in india entirely only critical parts will be made in usa and imported.

as for the fgfa be renegotiated good luck.

well guess what we are already going for some 3 to 4 squads of single seat T50 and then twin seat as and when they come so its no hard and fast thumb rule we will have twin seat version only so dont sweat too much over it

as for cost of F16s they are OK till they do the required job and even then they will remain very very potent threat for all our immidiate enemies for next 20 years in this theater so its a good investment and we are ready to pay for it and more so when its already known we are going to have a chance on F35C for IN after getting it so no issues

 

[Stephen Cohen]

well guess what we are already going for some 3 to 4 squads of single seat T50 and then twin seat as and when they come so its no hard and fast thumb rule we will have twin seat version only so dont sweat too much over it

as for cost of F16s they are OK till they do the required job and even then they will remain very very potent threat for all our immidiate enemies for next 20 years in this theater so its a good investment and we are ready to pay for it and more so when its already known we are going to have a chance on F35C for IN after getting it so no issues

Hello Sir when can we expect the F 16 deal to be signed

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Dear Sir u have given the young poster a befitting reply and ur reply has got the toughness of American Cowboy culture. However perhaps poster was trying to explain benefits of getting TFX over J31.

To me if u do not object the J31 is present for PAF and TFX is the future. We need both. Many have commented here that J31 shall be availble in time frame of 2021-24 but facts show that the jet is ready for production and all improvements have been done. Now the ball is in PAF court, when they will order. I believe that if jets are ordered before end of 2017 the deliveries shall start by 2019. PAF should realize the threats and go for it.
We should start to induct J31 with start of Rafael deliveries to IAF as so far honestly we do not have any modern jet which can challenge Rafael as I believe that once Rafael deliveries are started then Super Skhoi project will take off. Then in medium to long term either f16 block 70 or Grippen NG shall be also there.
We should have at that time sufficient number of JF17-Block 3, up graded previous JF17s and J31 to counter new threats.

For TFX the doubts are still there as due to Turkey's tilt to wards religion the EU and West has started to sabotage their projects especially related to areas where they are still not self sufficient further chances of any internal turmoil in Turkey are still there. May be sane move shall be to go for indigenous next generation fighter jet with the help of Turkey, China and for some tech we may go for SA help.

Hi,
J-31 is being designed as a multi role aircraft on the request of PAF, where as the J-20 is an air superiority fighter aircraft specific for China. However it is too early in the day to suggest what future hold for both these aircraft. Which ever company come ahead in the Naval variant would be selected by the Chinese armed forces.

Over the years both threads on development of J-31 and J-20 many things have been stated regarding mutual systems and technological achievements, which have been used on both aircraft. This is some what similar to the American approach like we have seen over the past in cases F-22 and YF-23 then F-35 and Boeing-X-32. Unlike the US policies of not offering the failed aircraft as an export example to other countries China offered the J-31.

TFX on the other hand is an ambitious project which was set out with one goal in mind Air Superiority. Three designs were were proposed two multi-engine and one single-engine.
The design that is selected is a twin engine one. TFX is supposed to replace F-16's of the TuAF where as F-35 will replace the F-4.

Now lets return tho PAF and see where it stands.

Currently it is undergoing replacement of F-7s. These aircraft are being replaced by JF-17's however PAF had also planed to procure more old F-16's and upgrade them to replace some F-7's and Mirage III aircraft. However F-16's are no more an option.

Now there are some options available to PAF.
1) JF-17 Block 3 is procured not by 50 aircraft but 100.
2) JF-17 B is added not as Trainer but as a strike aircraft. (considering its limited fuel Deep strike role would be shifted to F-16's)
3) 50 JF-17 Block 1 and 50 Block 2 are upgraded to Block 3

This would give PAF 250-300 JF-17's and aprox 150 mix of F-16, Mirage V & F-7PG. A decent strength.

Now looking at 2030 and beyond PAF options:
1) JF-17 Stealth Variant based on TFX single engine design with a western engine.
2) 100-150 TFX Air Superiority version of the TuAF to replace F-16's Mirages and F7PG.
3) 100-150 F-35 from USA (Pakistan's economy would have grown and sales possible - Highly unlikely because it will undermine twin engine Air Superiority fighter aircraft)
4) 100-150 J-31 to replace F-16, Mirage and F7PG (Highly unlikely- As this will put PAF once again in similar shoes of 1965)

Hi,

You already gave the answer---the J31 is almost ready for production---the TFX---years away---10-15 years.

There are no hurdles in getting the J31---with the TFX---you never know what could come up---.

We need both the JF17 BLK3 and J31 programs running in parallel.

Hi,
The need for an air superiority fighter aircraft has always been there in PAF since the grounding of F-104's.
J-31 can fulfill that role but in limited numbers hence no need for production line, however if PAF considers replacing some of the F-7s and later F-7PGs then the numbers can be enough for production facility.

Limitation
The limitations will be USA offering the F-35 or the Japanese Stealth Fighter to India on an immediate basis cutting off any future F-35's or TFX sales to Pakistan.

Hi,

I want to add something else---.

The Paf has been the most un-focussed direction less organization that I have ever seen. It is absolutely pathetic to the level of disgusting when it comes to current planning---future planning and procurement---fall back planning and options.

Now when you see the results of this organization---it looks like this company is sawing off the trunk that it is sitting on---or the nation is sitting on---.

If I would have asked my enemy to procure something for me---they would have done a better job---.

And there will be those who will say nay to what I am stating---but that is the truth---.

Paf---needs to change its game plan----it needs to focus on one and only one 5th gen future aircraft---and that is the J31---for now---. The current aircraft being the BLK 3 JF 17 and another 4.5 gen aircraft---.

Too many option create problems---make you become un-decisive---vested / bribed interests come into the picture---like TFX project would bribe someone in the Paf to hold onto the J31 and wait for the TFX and things like that---.

Our problem has been a now problem---and we have been deceived by the pak air force for 30 years now---.

Hi,
Please read my reply above Limitation.

Our problem for the past 50 yrs been a now problem...F-16's only came due to USSR knocking on the door steps. They were stopped as soon as USSR decided to leave. Till today the contract has not been fulfilled.

After 9/11 US policy shifted but it could not over rule senate. The arms embargo was still there. Today there is no arms embargo but the fear of one looms. This is why Pakistan can not trust anyone. The fear of being stabbed at the back will remain till the time we do not fulfill this...

the only c0ck up i have seen is not going for the mk2 as an extension to the rose program.
not even a strike fighter is required as the mmk2 would have had a decent load and range.

Hi,
You have brought up an interesting question. Mirage 2000 are good against F-16's as demonstrated by both the Greek Air force and Turkish Air force. You can not compare ROSE program to that of adding a new platform. PAF has been operating the Mirage III and V's for the past 50 years and has potentially made them almost equal to M2k's by updating them.

For one to understand why PAF decided to upgrade rather then replace them is to be asymmetric. The cost of PAF mirages is far less as compared to the M2k's. An option that could have been considered was adding more Mirage V and upgrading them to ROSE. This however can still be done but PAF is not intending to do it rather planning on some thing else.

PAF was / is considering on procuring EFT as replacement of these Rose upgraded mirages and mirage v's. What is the current position is not known.

If you consider this then M2k would not have given any considerable advantage.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Hello Sir when can we expect the F 16 deal to be signed

well dear hello how are you ?

well as for the question tell me will a corporate giant like TATA make a deal with a company like LM without a go ahead from both MOD of india and DOD of USA ?

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

well dear hello how are you ?

well as for the question tell me will a corporate giant like TATA make a deal with a company like LM without a go ahead from both MOD of india and DOD of USA ?

Stop derailing this thread. You know the person is only here to troll.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Hi,
PAF has been operating the Mirage III and V's for the past 50 years and has potentially made them almost equal to M2k's by updating them.



If you consider this then M2k would not have given any considerable advantage.

OK sir that Given can you please tell me or enlighten me can your Mirage III & V's stand a chance againse latest upgraded versions of IAFs M2K's
The impressive service of the Mirage 2000 in 1999 prompted the IAF to consider the acquisition of a further 126 aircraft. Instead, the Mirage 2000-5 became a contender for the IAF's Indian MRCA competition in competition with the Mikoyan MiG-35, F-16 Fighting Falcon and JAS 39 Gripen. In 2004, the Indian government approved purchase of ten Mirage 2000Hs, featuring improved avionics, particularly an upgraded RDM 7 radar; they were delivered in 2007 for a total of 59 aircraft. Dassault would replace the Mirage 2000 with the Rafale as its contender as the Mirage 2000 production line was to be closed.

In 2004, when India made its third order for the type, the government announced its intention to upgrade its existing Mirage 2000s. After a period of protracted negotiations for the next several years during which India and Dassault came close to signing a contract several times, India in July 2011 approved a $2.2 billion upgrade package for its Mirage 2000s. Worth some $43 million per aircraft, the upgrade would see the fleet be upgraded to Mirage 2000-5 Mk. 2 standard, with provisions made for the use of a night vision-capable glass cockpit, upgraded navigation and IFF systems, advanced multi-mode multi-layered radar, and fully integrated electronic warfare suite, among other updates. In addition, the fleet's inventory of Super 530D and Magic II missiles would be replaced by MICA, an order for which was placed in 2012. The first of the two IAF Mirages sent to France to be upgraded made its first flight in October 2013, marking the start of a test campaign that would encompass 250 flights, culminating in the handover of the first aircraft, redesignated Mirage 2000I, in March 2015. The new jets were redesignated Mirage 2000I for the single-seat version and Mirage 2000TI for the twin-seat version

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_2000#India

 

[Aawish]

Is there any chance that PAF shows any interest in Japanese Mitsubishi F-2, Mitsubishi X-2, or the South Korean
KAI KF-X?

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

OK sir that Given can you please tell me or enlighten me can your Mirage III & V's stand a chance againse latest upgraded versions of IAFs M2K's

You have to understand reality is far different then stated on paper. Look at this in the light of ICC Champions Trophy final. India was the stronger side but Pakistan played a lot more superior.

Now you are comparing M2K upgraded v/s Mirage III ROSE on a one on one bases, this would indicate on paper that M2K's are far more advance but in reality how would one play is totally different.

You have to compare what is spent on the procurement, maintenance and upgrade and then compare it to the adversary. Here it becomes really interesting you know Rafales have been in lime light because of them being vulnerable to MANPADS. So how much damage is inflicted is based on economic loss not the territory gained as that will be required to be returned as per UN. However this is for the areas that have been demarcated and accepted as territory of the states undisputedly. However those that are disputed can be taken over and kept.

 

[GURU DUTT]

You have to understand reality is far different then stated on paper. Look at this in the light of ICC Champions Trophy final. India was the stronger side but Pakistan played a lot more superior.

Now you are comparing M2K upgraded v/s Mirage III ROSE on a one on one bases, this would indicate on paper that M2K's are far more advance but in reality how would one play is totally different.

You have to compare what is spent on the procurement, maintenance and upgrade and then compare it to the adversary. Here it becomes really interesting you know Rafales have been in lime light because of them being vulnerable to MANPADS. So how much damage is inflicted is based on economic loss not the territory gained as that will be required to be returned as per UN. However this is for the areas that have been demarcated and accepted as territory of the states undisputedly. However those that are disputed can be taken over and kept.

ok so here it what i get of your post

1. you think air forces and defnce prepairdness work on same principal as a cricket match OK

2. im comparing Mirage 3 & 5s with M2K again OK which was made to replace them both and is already two and three genrations ahead of them in endurence and agility and ordenece carrying capacity even if you forget avionics pacage of the unupgraded version firget the upgraded ones )

3. last but not the least you are going to bring down M2K with a MANPAD again super OK
(ps... ANZA series is IR guided and M2K also does has something called chaffs & flairs dinpensers if ever they decide to come below required 5km altitude in enemy area ... think about that too even if you forget that its only indian fighter to have a GaN based internal ECM &jammer suite for other type of active & passive radar guided missiles )


when your best MANPAD even if its fired from mountain top cannot go beyond flight ceiling of 4.5KM while M2K is deisgned to drop all kinds of Bombs & PGMs & LGBs from 5 KM altitude and the main reason why it was retrofotted by help of israelies & extensivelly used after migs failed in 1999 kargil war do same jobs due to flying at those hights cause jags were not capable of mid altitude bombings and MKI had just arrived so it was only M2K that could carry that ammount of ordennece and at that altutude to do that kind of precsission bombings

and then you call yourself "ACE OF AIR" wow


and if all that was not enough your bringing off topic blabber like if some how you loose some territorry to us UNO will get it returned to ... ya right just as they are helping your so called kashmir cause and pushing india on indus water treaty and even on so called indian spy you caught

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

ok so here it what i get of your post

1. you think air forces and defnce prepairdness work on same principal as a cricket match OK

2. im comparing Mirage 3 & 5s with M2K again OK which was made to replace them both and is already two and three genrations ahead of them in endurence and agility and ordenece carrying capacity even if you forget avionics pacage of the unupgraded version firget the upgraded ones )

3. last but not the least you are going to bring down M2K with a MANPAD again super OK
(ps... ANZA series is IR guided and M2K also does has something called chaffs & flairs dinpensers if ever they decide to come below required 5km altitude in enemy area ... think about that too even if you forget that its only indian fighter to have a GaN based internal ECM &jammer suite for other type of active & passive radar guided missiles )
when your best MANPAD even if its fired from mountain top cannot go beyond flight ceiling of 4.5KM while M2K is deisgned to drop all kinds of Bombs & PGMs & LGBs from 5 KM altitude and the main reason why it was retrofotted by help of israelies & extensivelly used after migs failed in 1999 kargil war do same jobs due to flying at those hights cause jags were not capable of mid altitude bombings and MKI had just arrived so it was only M2K that could carry that ammount of ordennece and at that altutude to do that kind of precsission bombings

and then you call yourself "ACE OF AIR" wow

You do not get it do you...

There are tactics that win battles. M2K are made to replace Mirages true. This does not say that on the day M2K can not be brought down by an old aircraft.

Why compared India Cricket team was because it lost to a team that was not even supposed to play. On paper it was the strongest side compared to most of the teams that were playing.

The principal is same be it any where if your aim is wining. As mentioned if M2K vs Mirage 3/5 then it is how one uses them. You mentioned in 1999 Manpads did not reach the M2K and PAF did not send in Fighters to intercept so M2K's survived. In case of declared war do you think PAF does not have any thing capable of reaching 5 Kms.

In 1999 your aircraft remained within India area though that area is disputed still it is considered Indian.

If it is BVR then there are ways to survive. If it is WVR then there are ways to survive PAF pilots are trained and waiting please send some birds for them to do target practice.

 

[GURU DUTT]

You do not get it do you...

There are tactics that win battles. M2K are made to replace Mirages true. This does not say that on the day M2K can not be brought down by an old aircraft.

Why compared India Cricket team was because it lost to a team that was not even supposed to play. On paper it was the strongest side compared to most of the teams that were playing.

The principal is same be it any where if your aim is wining. As mentioned if M2K vs Mirage 3/5 then it is how one uses them. You mentioned in 1999 Manpads did not reach the M2K and PAF did not send in Fighters to intercept so M2K's survived. In case of declared war do you think PAF does not have any thing capable of reaching 5 Kms.

In 1999 your aircraft remained within India area though that area is disputed still it is considered Indian.

If it is BVR then there are ways to survive. If it is WVR then there are ways to survive PAF pilots are trained and waiting please send some birds for them to do target practice.

ok lets talk of AIR war only them Mr ACE OF AIR shall we

thing is this thread is about Air warfare oriented so lets keep it that way

lets not deviate and talk on practicle terms

1. we dont just have 54upgradedM2Ks & 63 upgraded Mig29s and some 252 Mkis but 126 Mig21s & 126 Jaguars also which are in process of getting EL 2052 AESA radar IRST & Python5 & I derby ER BVR missile then we have orderred 36 rafales while order for 54 is pending to be signed after the election of new indian president & RS elections

2. air warfare is always based on your radar backup capacity and in that we have the best with latest very long range ground based french , russian and israeli AESA and AEROstat radars and we also have 3 PHALCONS and have orderred two Next gen phalcons and already recived three desi LRDE/DRDO made GaA -AESA based AWACS and in final stages to order A330 for next gen 360 degrees type bigger and better AESA which would also double as a ariel refuler or troops tranport aircraft

now about pilots and there training well gone are the days we had those problems since 2002 we started geeting british HAWKs and now also have swiss pilatus trainur to train aur rooke pilots and they do not have to jump from turbo prop to staright to Mig21s and get crash landing courses like in late 1999s

and if that was not enough we are having military training exercises with almost all major air forces in the world today from USAF to Japan air force to even russian air force to israeli air force and an avrage indian air force pilot clocks at least 250 flying hours on his fighter jet while thrice those in stimulator (and yes we do not have to worry about fuel costs ) so we too are waiting for duck shooting and when and where duck shooting seaon starts
now lets talk about tactics well the only tactics in modern air war is try to conceal your position and decive the enemy and confuse him with your modern ECM & jamming tech (and thats what makes MKI & upgraded M2K so special while rafale is the king of the ring here )

secondly no matter how cunning and fast responding your fighter pilot is he cannot escape a 4th gen 30+ G force copmpatible multi seeker head BVR or VWR like Python5 or DERBY or MICA locked onto it at mach 4 speed just a couple of dozen km away ... or can you ?


so its not just that we have better fighter jets in 3:1 ratio but better missiles and better ground radars and much much advanced AWACS and of course our very own sattelite desi link if ever in war time russians and amricans close there link we still have our very own LINK on all our airel assets as Plan C

so my dear ist in the end all about options tell me whats yours ?

 

[Hassan Guy]

F-35 to replace No. 9 and 11 F-16MLU squads.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

1. we dont just have 54upgradedM2Ks & 63 upgraded Mig29s and some 252 Mkis but 126 Mig21s & 126 Jaguars also which are in process of getting EL 2052 AESA radar IRST & Python5 & I derby ER BVR missile then we have orderred 36 rafales while order for 54 is pending to be signed after the election of new indian president & RS elections

So you are suggesting that all these aircraft will be in Pakistan airspace... This is so dumb.
What you have today is what maters. Who has seen tomorrow. So what is ordered is not to be considered.
If you are considering Israeli Tactics then you have to rethink 1000 times as Pakistan is not Egypt, Iraq or Syria.

2. air warfare is always based on your radar backup capacity and in that we have the best with latest very long range ground based french , russian and israeli AESA and AEROstat radars and we also have 3 PHALCONS and have orderred two Next gen phalcons and already recived three desi LRDE/DRDO made GaA -AESA based AWACS and in final stages to order A330 for next gen 360 degrees type bigger and better AESA which would also double as a ariel refuler or troops tranport aircraft

Your number of Awacs is less than what PAF has. Moreover Awac aircraft are going to be used not in enemy air space rather in areas where they can be protected by other equipments in case they are targeted.

Again you are basing your self on future weapons that will be ordered.

The tactics of decoys is being used for a very long time along with jamming this is nothing new.

Rest is nothing but a script of Bollywood movie.

F-35 to replace No. 9 and 11 F-16MLU squads.

this can be possible after 2030-2035 not now.

 

[GURU DUTT]

So you are suggesting that all these aircraft will be in Pakistan airspace... This is so dumb.
What you have today is what maters. Who has seen tomorrow. So what is ordered is not to be considered.
If you are considering Israeli Tactics then you have to rethink 1000 times as Pakistan is not Egypt, Iraq or Syria.


Your number of Awacs is less than what PAF has. Moreover Awac aircraft are going to be used not in enemy air space rather in areas where they can be protected by other equipments in case they are targeted.

Again you are basing your self on future weapons that will be ordered.

The tactics of decoys is being used for a very long time along with jamming this is nothing new.

Rest is nothing but a script of Bollywood movie.

wow you call yourself ACE OF AIR nd presuming that India or IAF gonna send all its air power with word go into pakistani airforce wow

what can i say about your knowldge of airwarfare after this expert post dear

plus the fact is all your territory depth is like at the most 350km which a Phalcon even if its falying 150Km inside india will be able to track and scan easily and guide all its assets towards there designated targets and we do not need many causethree are more than enough plus they are backed by three desi AESA AWACS like those swedish AWACS you have

then we also happen to have many other assets aswell like many SA batteries which have there own independent radars aswell apart from dozens of Green pines and swrod fish types already scanning deep inside pakistan then there are AEROSTAT radars then top cover of AWACS and the sattelite cover given by SAR type resat from space itself which can see through clouds and bad weather... point is AWACS is not everything but just a part of the zig saw puzzle

then there is other back up point is in air warfare you lure enemy out of his shell and PAF like it or not like israeli air force always is an attacking air force not a defensive air force it has but no choice to attack india first to gain that surprise element or loose everything in case of air war .... but you can differ sannu ki

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

wow you call yourself ACE OF AIR nd presuming that India or IAF gonna send all its air power with word go into pakistani airforce wow

what can i say about your knowldge of airwarfare after this expert post dear

plus the fact is all your territory depth is like at the most 350km which a Phalcon even if its falying 150Km inside india will be able to track and scan easily and guide all its assets towards there designated targets and we do not need many causethree are more than enough plus they are backed by three desi AESA AWACS like those swedish AWACS you have

then we also happen to have many other assets aswell like many SA batteries which have there own independent radars aswell apart from dozens of Green pines and swrod fish types already scanning deep inside pakistan then there are AEROSTAT radars then top cover of AWACS and the sattelite cover given by SAR type resat from space itself which can see through clouds and bad weather... point is AWACS is not everything but just a part of the zig saw puzzle

then there is other back up point is in air warfare you lure enemy out of his shell and PAF like it or not like israeli air force always is an attacking air force not a defensive air force it has but no choice to attack india first to gain that surprise element or loose everything in case of air war .... but you can differ sannu ki

You suggested it that all your aircraft are available to fight an air war with PAF.
Here is a reasonable outlook..

IAF can not deploy all her MKI's on the West. these aircraft are also required to counter China. Realistically what can be fielded shall be discussed.

1) Mig 21's
2) JAGs
3) M2K's
4) 50 MKIs incase Mig 29's are unavailable.

Mig 21 is an intercepter and good for point defence hence will not play any thing other then defencive role other than to counter PAF attacks.

JAGs' and M2K's will be used to attack under the cover of MKI or Mig 29's.

Most of the attacks will not be carried by flying directly over land in case of south region rather will be done over the sea using jags and mig 29s. This is the reason Mirage 3 /5 will be at par with the attacking aircraft along with JF-17's.

The attacks on the north will be focussed on mirages and Mig 29's also defending mig21's. This is where F-7's and F-7pg along with JF-17 and F-16 are adequate to counter any attack.

You have to understand that air war will be supported by SAMs so it is not that easy.

Now you add all these IAF aircraft and see what you get...

You know well PAF is more or less trying to protect her airspace in that they have designed themselves.