Whatever

[Joe Shearer]

Are you visiting the Muslim heritage sites in Italy ? One of Tariq Ali's Islam Quintet books is set in Italy - A Sultan in Palermo.

That's Sicily, and it was ruled by Arabs for several centuries!

It should have been An Emir in Palermo, strictly speaking. Both you and @saiyan0321 should read up on it; there is a school of historians who think that English Common Law owes a lot to Arabic jurisprudence, and the connection is that the Plantagenet Norman rulers of England sent a delegation of monks to learn the judicial practices under their distant kinsmen (in the sense of their being the pre-eminent Norman family of Europe), the de Hauteville family that conquered and ruled Sicily until it was absorbed into the Holy Roman Empire by the marriage of Constance of Sicily to Henry VI. The Hohenstaufens lost it all when Constance's child, Frederick II, stupor mundi, was hounded out of power by the pope.

The history of Islam in Sicily and Southern Italy began with the first Arab settlement in Sicily, at Mazara, which was captured in 827. The subsequent rule of Sicily and Malta started in the 10th century. Islamic rule over all Sicily began in 902, and the Emirate of Sicily lasted from 831 until 1061.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I read you don't drink, how would you know that wine improves with age? lol

Umm, I do (did), and I can confirm that (different aging periods for different wines; not all age at the same rate or last the same period).

 

[jamahir]

there is a school of historians who think that English Common Law owes a lot to Arabic jurisprudence, and the connection is that the Plantagenet Norman rulers of England sent a delegation of monks to learn the judicial practices under their distant kinsmen (in the sense of their being the pre-eminent Norman family of Europe), the de Hauteville family that conquered and ruled Sicily until it was absorbed into the Holy Roman Empire by the marriage of Constance of Sicily to Henry VI. The Hohenstaufens lost it all when Constance's child, Frederick II, stupor mundi, was hounded out of power by the pope.

I too remotely remember reading about English Common Law, in specific the marriage law, being inspired by Islamic Marriage Law. But I don't believe the Tabligh Jamaatis in modern India and Pakistan would know of this and of the fact that Muslims in those centuries had a better intellectual environment to produce so many discoveries, innovation and general intellectual output.

 

[saiyan0321]

That's Sicily, and it was ruled by Arabs for several centuries!

It should have been An Emir in Palermo, strictly speaking. Both you and @saiyan0321 should read up on it; there is a school of historians who think that English Common Law owes a lot to Arabic jurisprudence, and the connection is that the Plantagenet Norman rulers of England sent a delegation of monks to learn the judicial practices under their distant kinsmen (in the sense of their being the pre-eminent Norman family of Europe), the de Hauteville family that conquered and ruled Sicily until it was absorbed into the Holy Roman Empire by the marriage of Constance of Sicily to Henry VI. The Hohenstaufens lost it all when Constance's child, Frederick II, stupor mundi, was hounded out of power by the pope.

I know a bit about it and it is a very interesting subject. I was studying, at that time, what prompted the military campaigns in the levant by the european powers as one of the most strong reasons for such united fronts are often to check conquests of rising powers and to do that i wanted to see how far the muslim emirates and stateship had reached and sicily was the most interesting of subject along with sardinia and the emirate of bari. All of them played a very crucial role in the cultural influence of the region as well as the rise of muslim states in north africa. If we actually study the Roman-Carthagenian conflicts and the Byzantine and Sassanid conflicts for Levant and ofcourse the Byzantine presence on eastern Mediterranean, we would come to understand the importance of northern Africa and these states allowed for the growth of the North african powers and states which remained elements of muslim dominance till the ottoman loses of the 1800s

 

[peagle]

Umm, I do (did), and I can confirm that (different aging periods for different wines; not all age at the same rate or last the same period).

lol, got it, Joe.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

I am in Crete, Greece in lovely sky villa with its own swimming pool and glorious views of the Mediterranean. After Pakistan I went to Turkey and the after 4 days in UK I thought it only appropriate to visit Turkey’s twin Greece. So here I am in land of Alexander admiring the views and fabulous local fruit. Grapes, fig, watermelons etc to die for. The women are pretty ugly to be honest. Short, stout workhorses. @Nilgiri @Yankee-stani @PAKISTANFOREVER @Joe Shearer etc

I'm glad you're enjoying yourself bro!
You deserve it. You've have a lot to tell us about with your recent globetrotting when you get back............so sorry to hear about your disappointment with the eye candy in Greece..........

 

[saiyan0321]

That's Sicily, and it was ruled by Arabs for several centuries!

It should have been An Emir in Palermo, strictly speaking. Both you and @saiyan0321 should read up on it; there is a school of historians who think that English Common Law owes a lot to Arabic jurisprudence, and the connection is that the Plantagenet Norman rulers of England sent a delegation of monks to learn the judicial practices under their distant kinsmen (in the sense of their being the pre-eminent Norman family of Europe), the de Hauteville family that conquered and ruled Sicily until it was absorbed into the Holy Roman Empire by the marriage of Constance of Sicily to Henry VI. The Hohenstaufens lost it all when Constance's child, Frederick II, stupor mundi, was hounded out of power by the pope.

Actually there is a reason why the CII and the Supreme court of Pakistan and FSC have declared many of the english common law as Shariah Compliant and as Islamic law in the country. We must also understand that by the period of the 900s, the Arab world or the Islamic world to be more general as an understanding was advancing in terms of jurisprudence, culture and science and thus it was natural for the neighbors to be affected as such by such advancements.

 

[Indos]

Almost each region has its own dialect, but it is somewhat easy for any Greek to understand them fully. Crete indeed has a different, immediately recognizable dialect.

When you do eventually encounter a buffy nonagenarian from Chania and start conversing though...then all bets are off. You are essentially listening to an alien bird species.

I have one question about Greek, I hope you wouldn't mind answering it.

Do Greek people Today is the same Greek during Alexandre the Great time ? I heard that Germanic people invaded many part of Western Europe in the ancient time, particularly after Rome didnt have enough power to prevent their invasion into the rest of Europe.

 

[saiyan0321]

also @Joe Shearer the maliki fiqh jury system is very much a massive influence on the modern jury system where the 12-13 people would swear an oath amongst the populace that they would listen to the facts and they would reach a unanimous verdict of innocent or guilty. This was called the lafif system and this was distinctly different from the Athenian system since the athenian system of Dikstai, i think had 500-1500 jurors and the verdict rested on majority but in lafif there existed unanimous opinion which is in line with the modern jury system. However our courts declared the jury system as a form of amateur legal law.

 

[jamahir]

Off to Italy tomorrow

It's a pity that our resident Italian, @MarkusS, is banned otherwise you could have possibly met him.

And a point of personal interest to me. Can you ask the Italians what they think of this song ( 'Che Vuole Questa Musica Stasera' ) originally by an Italian but was played in the superb 2015 film The Man from U.N.C.L.E.

 

[Indos]

@Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @StormBreaker

Interesting to watch here .....

@jamahir you need to follow Mufti Menk video, even a Christian liberal like Micky Minaj follow Mufti Menk

 

[Dante80]

I have one question about Greek, I hope you wouldn't mind answering it.

Do Greek people Today is the same Greek during Alexandre the Great time ? I heard that Germanic people invaded many part of Western Europe in the ancient time, particularly after Rome didnt have enough power to prevent their invasion into the rest of Europe.

Yes, pretty much. The Greek ethno-linguistic group is pretty distinctive, and with easily traceable and well characterized Y-DNA haplogroups.

Here is an interesting article, if you are interested.

The Greeks really do have near-mythical origins, ancient DNA reveals

Having said that, have in mind that the region has seen a lot of population movement throughout the centuries. From ancient times all different ethnicities have been mixed with other ones more or less. The population of Greece has too. But the old Greek populations have never been exterminated, so its safe to say that present day Greeks are at a very high percentage descendants of the ancient Greeks.

Not that it matters any really..

 

[HRK]

@jamahir @Nilgiri @HRK

Bro, I have become Elite Member with 8002 post. Time to celebrate ........

Congrats ....

 

[Joe Shearer]

I know a bit about it and it is a very interesting subject. I was studying, at that time, what prompted the military campaigns in the levant by the european powers as one of the most strong reasons for such united fronts are often to check conquests of rising powers and to do that i wanted to see how far the muslim emirates and stateship had reached and sicily was the most interesting of subject along with sardinia and the emirate of bari. All of them played a very crucial role in the cultural influence of the region as well as the rise of muslim states in north africa. If we actually study the Roman-Carthagenian conflicts and the Byzantine and Sassanid conflicts for Levant and ofcourse the Byzantine presence on eastern Mediterranean, we would come to understand the importance of northern Africa and these states allowed for the growth of the North african powers and states which remained elements of muslim dominance till the ottoman loses of the 1800s

If you want to go deeper into it, you have to start with the loosening of the Byzantine hold on the area, you have to go back to the military genius, Belisarius, and his unlikely rival and the equally successful Narses. But your focus is obviously different, and you have mentioned the Emirate of Bari. The Emirate of Ifrique (=Africa) is also very important, as is the Emirate of Sicily. It is interesting that a major motive force for the growth of the US Navy and the US Marines as a formation under that Navy was due to these very same north African beys and their raiding of shipping in their area. So when the Marines sing of "From the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli", you will be reminded instantly of the Ottoman presence this far west.

 

[jamahir]

@jamahir you need to follow Mufti Menk video, even a Christian liberal like Micky Minaj follow Mufti Menk

I will be frank, brother. If I had to follow a scholar of Islam of the past few decades it would have to be the late Gaddafi. There is a story that in the 1980s he once went on live TV and debated a bunch of regressive mullahs and defeated them.

Mufti Menk from my reading about him is not the best ambassador for Islam.

I will quote from another post of mine :
---
The Libyan organization WICS ( World Islamic Call Society ) during Gaddafi's time was doing a better job at promoting Islam among Muslims and non-Muslims, and promoting dialogue between Muslims and non-Muslims. The below text is from a Reuters article from 2012 :

The World Islamic Call Society (WICS) sent staffers out to build mosques and provide humanitarian relief. It gave poor students a free university education, in religion, finance and computer science. Its missionaries traversed Africa preaching a moderate, Sufi-tinged version of Islam as an alternative to the strict Wahhabism that Saudi Arabia was spreading.

The Society won approval in high places. The Vatican counted it among its partners in Christian-Muslim dialogue and both Pope John Paul and Pope Benedict received its secretary general. Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, spiritual head of the world’s Anglicans, visited the campus in 2009 to deliver a lecture. The following year, the U.S. State Department noted approvingly how the Society had helped Filipino Christian migrant workers start a church in Libya.

The WICS’s focus was Africa, especially the large Muslim communities in West Africa and the Sahel region that Gaddafi considered Libya’s back yard. But it also built mosques and Islamic centers in Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Malta and the Netherlands. It contributed along with other Arab states to the construction of the huge mosque in Rome and the Central Mosque in London. It was also active in the Philippines, Malaysia and Indonesia.

“Libya was too small for him,” said former ambassador Saad El Shlmani, now Foreign Ministry spokesman. “He wanted to be the leader of all the Africans, of all the Muslims, of the whole world.”

In a propaganda coup for Gaddafi, Vatican Foreign Minister Jean-Louis Tauran visited Libya in 1994. He made the last leg of the journey from southern Tunisia to Tripoli by car because of the embargo on air traffic. Washington watched with concern as the Church’s relations with Tripoli improved, and tried to persuade it not to establish diplomatic relations, but Pope John Paul went ahead and recognized Libya in 1997.

In the 1990s, the Society expanded its work in Africa, stepping up its “Islamic convoys” of medicines, clothes and food as far down as southern Africa. It held conferences on education, culture and the links between African and Arab societies on the continent. It also funded Islamic radio stations in Togo, Benin, Chad, Cameroon, Mali and South Africa.

African leaders spoke out increasingly loudly against the U.N. embargo. South African President Nelson Mandela visited Tripoli in 1997 to thank Gaddafi for supporting the African National Congress during the apartheid years and to condemn the embargo. He also had to make the final leg of the trip by car.

The highlight of Gaddafi’s charm offensive came with a series of so-called “defiance tours” in convoys through West Africa. On the first of these road shows in 1997, the man who billed himself as “the Revolutionary Muslim” led huge prayer sessions in Niami, the capital of Niger, and in Kano in northern Nigeria. On his third swing through the region in 2000, he took in Niger, Burkina Faso, Ghana and Togo, “crossing more than 4,000 km through cities, villages, deserts, jungles, plains and modern towns,” as one Society report put it.

WICS staff were drafted in to help organize and support the visits.

Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams delivered a lecture on divine revelation to the Islamic Call College during a visit to Tripoli in 2009. His website describes the Society as “the world’s foremost Islamic benevolent organization with members from every corner of the globe.”

Among those who broke bread with the Society was World Council of Churches Secretary General Tveit, who lectured on the shared values of Christians and Muslims in Tripoli just one month before the uprising against Gaddafi broke out in February 2011. He said his organization would not have dealt with the WICS if it had known its dark side.

“In this particular situation, the WCC decided to work with the WICS because of its commitment to inter-religious dialogue and willingness to work with the WCC and its partners,” he said.

The firebrand U.S. black Muslim preacher Louis Farrakhan never hid his ties with Libya, but the uprising prompted even more disclosure than before. On March 31, 2011, Farrakhan defended “Brother Gaddafi” at a rare news conference and said Libya had lent the Nation of Islam $8 million over the years.

At his news conference, Farrakhan, a deputy chairman of the WIPL, said Gaddafi had also helped him take three tours to visit Muslim leaders in over 40 countries. “I’ve been all over the world because of that man,” he said.

The WIPL apparently lent a helping hand for Farrakhan’s pro-Gaddafi media blitz. Officials reviewing Society files showed Reuters a recently found confidential memo dated March 15, 2011, indicating the WIPL would pay for U.S. newspaper ads that Farrakhan placed to defend him. The Nation of Islam did not respond to requests for comment.