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What students are being taught about the separation of East Pakistan

they hate India, and don't know why. Is that ignorance, or from something they know that we need to know? Please, PLEASE don't raise issues like they're hurt to the core about Kashmir;

And herein lies the problem. Not only are we going to sit in judgement over your nation and decide that you hate us without knowing why, we will also tell you that it couldn't possibly be because of Kashmir, because that would be an unpleasant truth to come to terms with. Better to gloss over that core issue which gives people cause to think of the other as an enemy (a characterization from which a flood of ugliness then flows), than to entertain an inconvenient truth. Nah! How about we just gloss over what's really happening and paint you with a very broad brush instead.

Very well! Carry on then.

Monitor said:
which ultimately will makes young 'Pakistani unfriendly towards bangladeshis in future .who is going to beneficiary of this unfriendly relation ? ist not india ?

Monitor, I will repeat what another poster said earlier. How many Pakistanis have you come across who think of Bangladesh as an "enemy" or otherwise hate Bangladesh? I haven't come across many. That's not to say one can't be like a mole and dig up an idiot or two on either side, but in general, Pakistanis are very favourably inclined toward Bangladesh.

As far as the future goes, if things continue to trend the way they are presently, SL, BD and Pakistan will all find themselves in deep strategic alliances with China. In practical terms, I think this will align the foreign policies of all three countries, at least with respect to the region.
 
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i neva came across any chapter discussing separation of East Pakistan .... 2ndly i'm interested in knowing what been taught about East Pakistan in indian history text book, if its been taught ...
 
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We can look at this possibility in greater detail as we look at the avenues of diverse and controversial discourse in greater detail, as we identify the various platforms that you have named. Which are these platforms? books and articles? the electronic and the print media? the blogosphere?

Should it be through the torrent of publications of books in Pakistan that we judge this, and by ' we', I mean any reasonably impartial observer, very much including Pakistanis themselves.

Pakistan is going through its own spring-time of English language literature, one that has been long in the making and one that has caught everyone by surprise now that it is here. As far as Pakistani authors are concerned, if you check with them, they are mobbed by admirers and readers whenever there is an opportunity for Indians to meet them; personally, in my little backwater of Assam, it is an impractical proposition, otherwise I too would be queuing up for an autograph.

We may not have read much; my own count includes Bapsi Sidhwa, and Hanif Kureishi, both read a long time ago, neither read as particularly 'Pakistani'; more recently, Moth Smoke and A Case of Exploding Mangoes, and with a great deal of perplexity and trepidation, In Other Rooms, Other Wonders.

But how many Mohammed Hanifs do we have, and, by contrast, how many others who hint at a troubled society, in whose writing we merely occasionally see the paw under the door, a passing whiff of brimstone?

On the question of the electronic and the print media, it is best to pas over lightly, because everyone has his or her very sharply etched 'take' on it; let us all agree to disagree with everyone else. My little squeak of an opinion wouldn't really count in this grand diapason of sound from both sides.

About the blogsphere, I'm much more sure, having been a habitue of both ATP and PTH, and a one-time daily reader of 5 Rupees. I read LUBP briefly when they were tangling with YLH, but didn't quite take to them. These three first-mentioned are fora of impeccable liberal democratic credentials, and there is nothing coming out of there that is suspect; there is a lot that is disputed, but as among comrades and fellow-workers.

And the rest? What of the rest? What is it among them that would attract anyone? There was that classic moron who started his blog with....well, never mind, it's too easily recognisable, and the last thing I want is an angry punctured gasbag hunting my scalp.

So now tell me, having gone through this quickie, what should I conclude?

If I take the vast bulk of correspondents, other than those of ATP and PTH, they hate India, and don't know why. Is that ignorance, or from something they know that we need to know? Please, PLEASE don't raise issues like they're hurt to the core about Kashmir; that horse has been kept running - first embalmed, then stuffed, then fitted with actuators, then put back on the turf - by those who desperately need India to be a permanent enemy, present and terrifying, so that they can keep growing their private empires, and keep getting bigger and better budgets every year.



You just heard the exact same thing, exactly according to the script that you threw open to the public, from someone who's been around, who's tried to keep objective, someone who's striven hard for good relations between the two countries, someone who's a charter member of the Defend Liberal Pakistan Club.

At this moment, honestly, it seems to be a one-way street; we keep bending over backwards, and we keep getting taken for a ride. The more we try, the more we get taken. The more we soft-pedal and put our sore points out of the picture, the more we face jerks, the very late teen types who think it's funny to be rude or coarse, or try to get every discussion to become an argument, or try to win these with totally witless one-liners, and a slew of smileys strewn around the place.

Is it possible that this big myth about Pakistan might actually be a small dirty secret about Pakistan? Have you ever thought about it?

What are the platforms for diverse and controversial discourse? Books, blogs, the print media, and now the far more popular TV media.

What I see in your response is essentially the flaw in Indian thinking I was pointing at - you reduced the content of our discourse to a narrow version, primarily related to how we see India. My point about 'diverse and controversial discourse' was not merely about discourse over our relations with India, but our discourse over a whole gamut of social, economic, political, religious, cultural and foreign policy issues. That is why I specifically pointed out the example of the air time Baluch Separatists get on our media, instead of an example of a 'peacenik proposing a different foreign policy tact WRT India'.

'Diverse and controversial discourse' is not the sole domain of 'liberal democratic blogs', though 'diverse and controversial liberal democratic discourse' might be. That particular POV forms but a part of the larger mosaic of discourse in Pakistan, and the inability to recognize that mosaic of discourse is the failing, in understanding Pakistan on the part of Indians, that I was pointing out.
 
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As far as the future goes, if things continue to trend the way they are presently, SL, BD and Pakistan will all find themselves in deep strategic alliances with China. In practical terms, I think this will align the foreign policies of all three countries, at least with respect to the region.

Actually, SL can never be in a strategic alliance with China. India and SL are too deeply connected with that. I know Pakistani's think that Pakistan and SL are are together. Having good relations is different from what you think SL might or might not do. China pumping in massive money in any country does not mean they get strategic alliances. China has been pumping a lot of money in a LOT of countries.

Secondly, the way things are going in BD, i doubt there would be any alliance with China at all. Their current govt was voted in with a thumping majority, and they do have good relations with India.
 
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To add to my post above, an observation on some 'liberal democrats', such as the one that wrote this article - I believe they play their part in perpetuating misconceptions about Pakistan, and a part in reducing its diversity to a caricature (NFP from Dawn comes to mind in particular), not necessarily as a deliberate attempt to denigrate Pakistan, but by taking 'introspection' to the point of 'self flagellation and self loathing'.

Paladin provided some links about the syllabus showing the author to be wrong a few posts into the thread - could the author not have done a similar google search at least, if not an actual reading of the various texts in Pakistan, before penning his article?

Or was the need to push the 'liberal democratic point of view', and introspection to the point of self loathing far more important than the truth?
 
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To add to my post above, an observation on some 'liberal democrats', such as the one that wrote this article - I believe they play their part in perpetuating misconceptions about Pakistan, and a part in reducing its diversity to a caricature (NFP from Dawn comes to mind in particular), not necessarily as a deliberate attempt to denigrate Pakistan, but by taking 'introspection' to the point of 'self flagellation and self loathing'.

Paladin provided some links about the syllabus showing the author to be wrong a few posts into the thread - could the author not have done a similar google search at least, if not an actual reading of the various texts in Pakistan, before penning his article?

Or was the need to push the 'liberal democratic point of view', and introspection to the point of self loathing far more important than the truth?

I say in view of the current problems we are facing, the issue is of zero relevance to us in the first place... even if a one sided story was being taught to students...
 
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I think history of country should not refrained from young genration. whether good or bad it's the part of history. BTW- history teaches very good lessons like"what to do and what not to"
 
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I donno abt textbooks in Pakistan but I have personally seen PTV discussions on 1965 war and Kargil war, few years back. It was completely biased and was a direct attempt to brainwash the public with fake propaganda.

PTV is no different from sahara,NDTV,ZEE NEWS, STAR NEWS! however, having said that i feel EAST pakistan was a mixture of:

YAHYA'S MISTAKES, ZULFIQAR's LUST FOR POWER, GENUINE GRIEVANCES & INDIAN CONSPIRACY!

no matter how much india tries to "act" innocent it had no right to intervene in a civil war! :coffee:

so to conclude what you read and what i read is not the whole truth to find out the real truth read between the lines!
 
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What are the platforms for diverse and controversial discourse? Books, blogs, the print media, and now the far more popular TV media.

What I see in your response is essentially the flaw in Indian thinking I was pointing at - you reduced the content of our discourse to a narrow version, primarily related to how we see India. My point about 'diverse and controversial discourse' was not merely about discourse over our relations with India, but our discourse over a whole gamut of social, economic, political, religious, cultural and foreign policy issues. That is why I specifically pointed out the example of the air time Baluch Separatists get on our media, instead of an example of a 'peacenik proposing a different foreign policy tact WRT India'.

'Diverse and controversial discourse' is not the sole domain of 'liberal democratic blogs', though 'diverse and controversial liberal democratic discourse' might be. That particular POV forms but a part of the larger mosaic of discourse in Pakistan, and the inability to recognize that mosaic of discourse is the failing, in understanding Pakistan on the part of Indians, that I was pointing out.

Well, that certainly is a comprehensive blow-back.

Let me pick myself off, dust myself off and try to get a glazed-eyed look at what is being presented:

  1. Discourse in Pakistan has a lot more besides India in its contents;
  2. For instance, it has social, economic, political, religious, cultural and foreign policy issues;
  3. It's not just what's on liberal democrat blogs that matters;
  4. Those blogs represent at times controversial points of view, but controversial points of view within the liberal democratic spectrum alone;
  5. There's much more going on besides;
  6. It is that which Indians don't get, the complex, rich, variety which makes up the content of discourse, the fact that it is not confined to India alone.

Does that cover it? Have I missed anything?
 
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PTV is no different from sahara,NDTV,ZEE NEWS, STAR NEWS! however, having said that i feel EAST pakistan was a mixture of:

YAHYA'S MISTAKES, ZULFIQAR's LUST FOR POWER, GENUINE GRIEVANCES & INDIAN CONSPIRACY!

no matter how much india tries to "act" innocent it had no right to intervene in a civil war! :coffee:

so to conclude what you read and what i read is not the whole truth to find out the real truth read between the lines!

where are the proofs?? you have them in your hard disk??? or you have them in a confidential file or in your pen drive??? or you were there who traced the transmission ???

Secondly, Pakistan crossed the International Border officially on 3rd December 1971, by launching preemptive strikes on our 11 air bases. We just replied back and thankfully it Helped Bangladesh. Now we know how Innocent Pakistan is.
 
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Oh my this paranoid piece of BS.

I wonder where did i study all my life :undecided: why i have not studied that hindu teachers were teaching this and that.

BTW our textbooks need an entire section on Indian State terrorism in Pakistan in 71.

This is need of the hour. Also an actual account of how our forced fought there against Indian terrorists also how our foolishness to close down all communication had given free hand to indian hindu orange media churning out lies, false account of killing and raps. one wonders if our soldiers were supermen who individually could rape thousands of women at one time.

bwahahahahah bharti liars
 
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Stick to arguments about the content of textbooks (and I suppose the content of its national discourse on various platforms) please, instead of turning this into yet another thread on allegations of genocide and Indian involvement. There are plenty of threads on those issues already that you can read through and post on.
 
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Well, that certainly is a comprehensive blow-back.

Let me pick myself off, dust myself off and try to get a glazed-eyed look at what is being presented:

  1. Discourse in Pakistan has a lot more besides India in its contents;
  2. For instance, it has social, economic, political, religious, cultural and foreign policy issues;
  3. It's not just what's on liberal democrat blogs that matters;
  4. Those blogs represent at times controversial points of view, but controversial points of view within the liberal democratic spectrum alone;
  5. There's much more going on besides;
  6. It is that which Indians don't get, the complex, rich, variety which makes up the content of discourse, the fact that it is not confined to India alone.

Does that cover it? Have I missed anything?
For the most part, but with respect to my comments on 'liberal Democratic blogs', I meant to say that they largely reflect 'liberal Democratic' POV, not that they only focus on 'liberal Democratic' issues. Pakistani Media across the ideological spectrum discusses 'controversial and diverse' issues, such as the events of 1971 and Baluchistan's problems without taking a jingoistic line on it. Take for example the journalist and TV host Hamid Mir- most people would classify him as an Islamist, and he has been linked to the Taliban and is in fact under investigation for allegedly helping the Taliban kidnap two former military officials, yet his views on the events of EP reflect an acceptance of blame and injustice committed against the East Pakistanis as well as in Baluchistan, and he is an opponent of military rule, though also a supporter of a conservative government and retaining Pakistan's identity as an 'Islamic State'.

The point here being that the 'liberal democrats' are not the only ones talking about issues that might be perceived as 'controversial'.
 
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oh little boy i have to spoon feed you but no worries here you go

http://www.hinduonnet.com/nic/karan-gen-jacob.htm

:wave:

Sir, Thanks for that

But, I do not see any thing special apart from a WAR PLAN.
Let me clarify you, that A WAR PLAN always exists so Pakistan has it too, ask your government, you have it for Kashmir, you have it for Delhi. You had in 65, 71, 1999(out of topic)

Its an OFFICIAL PLAN and Officially we were at war with Pakistan on 3rd December 1971 only after YOUR aircrafts came into OUR airspace and made preemptive strikes on our airfields on 3rd December 1971 (night). You think after bombarding our airfields, we would feed you with sweets??

______ now here

Why dont your published books have this on their pages??? Why don't they say, that Pakistan was Responsible for the fall of Dhaka??? Why are your Politicians not blamed for it??? If the foundation of east Pakistan was on the basis of Islam, why did it fall???
What happened in SC when Mr. Bhutto tore the instrument of seize fire, why it is not told in books???



what are the explanations given??? I can explain but your books don't have them.

this should come under Civic or Political science subjects.




Hence what ever the books your government is publishing is a LIE!!
 
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