What should be done to Increase Religious tolerance in Pakistan/ serious Discussion

[Dubious]

@Talon

I have read Namaz behind a Barelvi Imam,a wahabbi, and even a shia even though I ascribe to none of these groups. To me dividing mosques is stupid and especially in Pakistan's case all mosques need to run by the state and open to all sects.

Yes I agree with that...But my question is why were they divided in the beginning and have the so called religious people not noticed the stupidity?

 

[KingMamba]

Yes I agree with that...But my question is why were they divided in the beginning and have the so called religious people not noticed the stupidity?

They weren't always divided and it wasn't even by design it just happened over time as people could not stand one another's views. So they just started segregating themselves to their own groups.

 

[Alpha1]

Get rid of the Idiot-ology
get rid of mullahs and mullah apologists
Ban sectarian crap from books , mosques
IMO the whole nation needs Ideological reorientation

 

[Dubious]

They weren't always divided and it wasn't even by design it just happened over time as people could not stand one another's views. So they just started segregating themselves to their own groups.

My next question is what can be done to dissolve this crap?

I know educating the people...I suggested that then there was a question educate them based on which fiqh? Why not educate them on the basics first coz seriously even the basics must be rusty if you can allow yourself to divide!

 

[FaujHistorian]

Yes I agree with that...But my question is why were they divided in the beginning and have the so called religious people not noticed the stupidity?

Here is my frank view. thus you will not see my mincing words.

We all form our own clubs.

Masjid is a club too.

It would be OK as long as we didn't issue fat fat fatwas against other clubs.

But it was done by abu bakr, umr and ali and usman and aysha. (raziall unho power 6)

And

hence we have 1400 years old history of killing nay butchering members of other clubs in the name of Islam.


As we do not read true history of our religion

we continue to romanticize old medieval stone age world.

And

thus we continue to carry the same disease of butchering each otehr in the name of religion.


it is like a group of men who have been exposed to aids, and still fork each other without condoms

Thus AIDS continues to thrive and continue to kill people in our country.

My next question is what can be done to dissolve this crap?

I know educating the people...I suggested that then there was a question educate them based on which fiqh? Why not educate them on the basics first coz seriously even the basics must be rusty if you can allow yourself to divide!

Cr@p (as you rightly put it) results from our believe system

Not too different from the time when AIDS resulted from the belief system about certain sexual practices.


We can very quickly get rid of this cr@p by cleansing ourselves from the belief system and cultural practices that result from such beliefs.

 

[airmarshal]

Teach Islam right from beginning of school. Teach values of tolerance that are in abundance in Islam.

Where did intolerance come from? Go back to late seventies when Shah of Iran was toppled & an anti American regime came into being in Iran. Also, when Soviets invaded Afghanistan, it was time to invest into some ideology that would invigorate fight against 'infidel' Soviets and also take care of 'infidel' Shias of Iran.

That is when Americans nodded to Saudis to teach a narrow, short sighted brand of Islam that was militant in nature & was designed to only get two short term objectives of defeating Soviets and containing 'Shia' Islam.

Since all this happened in our neighborhood and we had ambitious establishment to utilize the geopolitical situation in 'our interest', we became the test lab for both anti-Shia and anti-Soviet brand of CIA Islam.

Where does Islam, in which chapter of Quran first distinguishes Islam into 'Shia' and 'Sunni' Islam? Where does it ask to first declare one an infidel and then go after him and call this a 'jihad'?

Islam in South Asia taught peace and accommodation. No wonder Islam spread in Indian subcontinent and became a dominant religion. If we were taught otherwise, we would have hated it. Tell me who would in the right senses, ever accept Islam in a way Taliban purportedly are fighting for it? This aggressive, narrow minded, violent and militant Islam has no place in the world, even among Muslims, let alone influencing others to accept it.

 

[Dubious]

Here is my frank view. thus you will not see my mincing words.

We all form our own clubs.

Masjid is a club too.

It would be OK as long as we didn't issue fat fat fatwas against other clubs.

But it was done by abu bakr, umr and ali and usman and aysha. (raziall unho power 6)

And

hence we have 1400 years old history of killing other clubs in the name of Islam.

1stly, equating masjid to a club was not very good....because masjid is not a club where you need membership but a place of worship....the end

2ndly, abu bakar was the least interested in dividing people...It was not his fault that some felt that Ali should be the next Khalif though clearly the Prophet left it to Abu Bakar...when will we learn the blame equally falls on the mentality of the people to want a monarchy ...Prophet to his son in law then a proper assignment?

Usman screwed up a little bit when he bestowed favours to his family....

As far as Ali and Ayesha's war goes....there are even narrations they reconciled...then why the further hatred?

Then my next set of questions....Brailvi, Naqshabandi, Deobandi, Wahabi, Sufi...all these names are newer than blaming it all on the Khulufa Rasheedin!

@Talon

I have read Namaz behind a Barelvi Imam,a wahabbi, and even a shia even though I ascribe to none of these groups. To me dividing mosques is stupid and especially in Pakistan's case all mosques need to run by the state and open to all sects.

Bro it is not just about you and me...I have prayed in masjids heard of people telling me this and that...I even met women "proudly matter of factly" went as far as telling me women praying in masjids is haram that was a new hit on me ...just last year!

@FaujHistorian as a matter of fact...the masjids in Saudi no matter how old they are were never divided into shia and sunni...no where was anything remotely close to that even written on them...So dont drag the Rashudin Khalifs! It is Obvious that this crap started wayyy latter and developed very well!

 

[FaujHistorian]

1stly, equating masjid to a club was not very good....because masjid is not a club where you need membership but a place of worship....the end



2ndly, abu bakar was the least interested in dividing people...It was not his fault that some felt that Ali should be the next Khalif though clearly the Prophet left it to Abu Bakar...when will we learn the blame equally falls on the mentality of the people to want a monarchy ...Prophet to his son in law then a proper assignment?

Usman screwed up a little bit when he bestowed favours to his family....

As far as Ali and Ayesha's war goes....there are even narrations they reconciled...then why the further hatred?

Then my next set of questions....Brailvi, Naqshabandi, Deobandi, Wahabi, Sufi...all these names are newer than blaming it all on the Khulufa Rasheedin!

As I said,

we romanticize our religion and hence your response,


if you want to understand why Islamists butcher each other

go around and see if other religions have committed fratricide sometimes in the past.

And if they did

how did they get rid of it.

Similar lessons can be applied to modern Islmaist disease as well.

....Where does Islam, in which chapter of Quran first distinguishes Islam into 'Shia' and 'Sunni' Islam?.

Good point!


Quran doesn't


$hitty Sharia does.


Why?

Sharia $hit is not based on Quran but on the stone age beduin arabi-ajami (us vs. them) ideology (nay idiot-ology).


Hope this helps,.

 

[Pakistanisage]

I agree, there should be no mosque identified as belonging to a particular sect. In a society like ours it sows the seeds of sectarianism and religious divide.....

 

[Dubious]

As we do not read true history of our religion

History is written by winners of wars! There are equal number of books written in present time about the "myth" (yes that is what it is called in todays era) that Islam was spread by the sword....It is true some people did do that...But stretching the truth to whatever was previously thought should also be countered!

we continue to romanticize old medieval stone age world.

Have you by any chance managed to read the Christian history + have you heard of the Templar knights?

And

thus we continue to carry the same disease of butchering each otehr in the name of religion.

answered in my post before

Cr@p (as you rightly put it) results from our believe system

Not too different from the time when AIDS resulted from the belief system about certain sexual practices.


We can very quickly get rid of this cr@p by cleansing ourselves from the belief system and cultural practices that result from such beliefs.

Mind you our culture is older than the Islamic belief system....

We have extravagance weddings while Islam says only Nikkah + witnesses and Wali, Haq mehr and Vallima ...simple as that...but nope we want to spend from what we dont have (this is 1 difference between our religion and culture but we combine the 2)..No harm if you can afford it....but shouldnt be made compulsory like my niece spend x amount of money I should spend xx on my daughter's wedding

 

[FaujHistorian]

@FaujHistorian as a matter of fact...the masjids in Saudi no matter how old they are were never divided into shia and sunni...no where was anything remotely close to that even written on them...So dont drag the Rashudin Khalifs! It is Obvious that this crap started wayyy latter and developed very well!

Been to saudi and spent much more time outside islamist tri-cities (makkah madeena jeddah).

It is obvious your knowledge about SAudi society is very limited.

And

hence your rebuttal.

 

[Commander T]

hey guys, be cautious, beacuse of a little bit of extra emotions this thread can become a religious thread, and we can loose a good topic to discuss,

 

[airmarshal]

Some idiots who want to call themselves liberal and secular and very advanced in their thought are going crazy here. They keep bringing Khulfa e Rasheden here. It shows their lack of knowledge.

Khulfa e Rasheedeen have a very unique place in history of Islam that even Quran endorses. Bringing them down to your uneducated and filthy level and comparing their lives with your unfulfilled lifestyle that promotes friends and families to positions that they dont deserve is not only a reflection of your bias, but also your jahalat.

We are today what we are because of the way we have built our personalities. If we have not educated ourselves, have not created systems based on merit, have adopted wrong values and proudly espouse them, what has Islam and Khulfa e Rasheedeen got to do with it!

 

[FaujHistorian]

I agree, there should be no mosque identified as belonging to a particular sect. In a society like ours it sows the seeds of sectarianism and religious divide.....

Good point.

I don't go to an Ahmadi mosque

but

now that you have pointed out

We both will start praying in one of those places.

OK?

......Khulfa e Rasheedeen have a very unique place in history of Islam that even Quran endorses. Bringing them down to your uneducated and filthy level and comparing their lives

Bhai jaan

they butchered each other

That is much lower than anyone of us now in 2014 can bring anywhere lower than that

 

[Dubious]

if you want to understand why Islamists butcher each other

go around and see if other religions have committed fratricide sometimes in the past.

And if they did

how did they get rid of it.

Similar lessons can be applied to modern Islmaist disease as well.

Please refrain from whatever language you have written here...We all are frustrated at our on end....

Good point!


Quran doesn't


$hitty Sharia does.


Why?

Sharia $hit is not based on Quran but on the stone age beduin arabi-ajami (us vs. them) ideology (nay idiot-ology).


Hope this helps,.

It didnt help...

The sad truth is our lack of understanding....Shariah was derived from Quran, translation and tafseer as well as hadiths....It was however only suitable for that mindset, those laws, that practices ...It can be used for modern times with modifications and reviews....

Shariah is a whole conduct ...it is not just 1 book...we have 4 yrs degree in Islamic banking, same 4 yrs in Shariah law or Islamic laws.....So clearly it is not as simple as you put it! This is why I always ask you to read it yourself....I spent sometime with students from both those departments ...asking questions and learning myself..proper students who take degrees in these fields know what Shariah is not the everyday mullah.....Hell even UK unis are introducing Islamic banking (obviously they havent gone blind) so there is some good to it...Please dont paint everything from anger do your research!