What role could PAF have played in the Kargil war??

[MastanKhan]

K

Do not take this negative sense, but let me humbly ask if you managed any capital equipment acquisition?

I appreciate your strong views on PAF, albiet do not agree one bit on it. If anything in any objective evaluation, PAF's CAPEX management has been miles ahead of PA and PN multiplied.

Hi,

I have not managed any----but the bottom line is---the air force went after the sanctioned equipment time and again---and has not stopped yet.

Here is what I learnt in the car business----the dealer gave me a job where earnings are " sky is the limit "---from 1800 a month to 35000 dollars a month +++---for sales people. The most I ever hit was $13600 a month as a saleman---but I know of sale people who had hit $40000 a MONTH paycheck at Toyota of Cerritos---yes---that is forty thousand dollars a month.

The only few things they asked me to do was dress up to the best I have---look clean and presentable---a shirt and a tie---a pen and a note book in the pocket---a smile on the face---a firm handshake---a respect for the customer and the dealer would do everything for me to be successful.

So---for me---when they talk about difficulties----they are all but excuses---you know the good american saying---" excuse is like an ars-ehole---and everybody's got one "----.

My man---I got 45 seconds or less to make an impression on a customer---which will establish that he / she would buy from me or not---.

I work in california-----where there are the highest numbers of car dealerships concentrated in a short distance---ie 8---10 miles apart for same make---ie---a dealership of same make every 10 miles in metro areas.

Cmpare that to utah---where the next dealership is 30 to a 100 miles----compare that to nevada---where the next dealership maybe 100 miles away.

So---my perspective is different---because I work in a shark tank---and there are many bigger and ruthless sharks in the tank than me.

So---when I say car salesman mentality---for me---there has to be a way---not on one sale---not on two sales---but 3--4 and 5---to all the family---it is about building a relationship.

Regradless of who you are---individual---business---corporation or nations---.
This is Jew training 101---build relationships---look for the opening to give you advantage---LOOK AT THE NEEDS OF YOUR SELLER and if you make them feel that you can help them overcome their issues if they can help you overcome yours---you can build a relationship on that.

Other than that---all technicalities are a mumbo jumbo---you find an opening---you go for it---.

That is all I am saying---after 9/11---pakistan had the opportunity to hook up tight with France---and they ruined it---.

France has always been the most neutral and honest country when it comes to purchasing/selling of weapon systems in the sense, they offer their tech without a baggage ...their only limitation is that, they do not or cannot accept credit cards

Hi,

Egypt made them do it---. The Rafale was the key---France had to sell it---I hear that they made ehypt a hell of a finance deal---could have been pakistan's deal.

 

[war&peace]

My man---I got 45 seconds or less to make an impression on a customer---which will establish that he / she would buy from me or not---.

That's called elevator pitch

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sir,

They still let the nation down multiple times---so---regardless of whose relatives they are---they deceived their motherland---pakistan---.

Procurement is a TEAM effort---gamesmanship---strategy---current needs and future projections---.

Procurement is also a battle with the enemy---. You make the right deal on the right equipment---you have won a battle---if you make enough right deals---you constrict the enemy's abilities and take away its venom.

There was a close to 10 billion dollars deal sitting on the table----5 billion for the fighter aircraft---and possibly 5 billion for the submarine as @war&peace reminded me okay---and your most reliable supplier was willing---eager---ready and desperate to make a deal.

You pakistani---in your thick headedness have no clue how big a favor you were going to do to France by being the first customer to order the Rafale---.

French were scared shi-tless when they had not orders of Rafale---the production line had slowed to a crawl and engineers and assemblers and manufacturers were barely getting enough hours building aircraft.

French were seriously concerned that if they did not get any orders---their fighter aircraft industry would be finished once these engineers and techs were laid off---.

So---pakistan & paf had the magic wand in its hands---it missed the opportunity for an forever obligation of the French aeronautical industry.

In all actuality---they were not doing France any favors---but pakistan a big favor as well.

Today---all our JF17's would have been flying with avionics package similar to the Gripen NG with french engines---.

Pakistan air force cannot be forgiven for this deception to the motherland---.

PAF snatched DEFEAT from the jaws of VICTORY---not the first time---not the second time---not the third time---but the fourth time or more in the last 30 + years.

They chose failure over success over and over-----everytime since the war of 1965.

I have never understood this. I don't think I ever will. Sometimes I feel that the only possible explanation is that of M. J. Akbar:"Allah favoured India."

@MastanKhan

I don't pretend to understand what's going on at your end, but you've hit a purple patch. I've seldom read such a close succession of outstanding posts, clearly and closely argued and addressing the point. Personally I don't agree with you except on some aspects, but the posts are a treat to read and to understand.

 

[MastanKhan]

That's called elevator pitch

Yessir,

Thanks for sharing the info about the Jf17 wind tunnel experiment in France---. You know wht the paf delayed buying aircraft after 9/11-----.

They had assessed that the chance of war with india was finished---so it would be a waste of money to buy high end fighter aircraft----we will go and just develop the JF17----so that was the reason for the lackadaisical approach.

 

[MilSpec]

Hi,

I have not managed any----but the bottom line is---the air force went after the sanctioned equipment time and again---and has not stopped yet.

I will focus on this part of your post. I did read the rest and thanks for sharing that.

Structure of the cost for capital goods > includes Unit price + operational cost - concessions - claims + Training + Service contract.

Given JF17 JV and mirage 3/5 rebuild factory and procured used , following is the cost makeup, lets do a simple weighted point exercise.

No matter how you look at it, F16's are more cost effective than m2k, and came with enormous political concessions at the time of induction. Once inducted there initial cost was high enough that to lower it's operational cost and give PAF a fighting edge larger numbers would make operational cost and service cost sense.

M2K on the other hand could have not provided the same amount of concessions, and neither were the upgrades cost effective, to upgrade a fleet of 50 odd units we are paying almost the price of brand new ones. F16's brought the best price to value within the limited budget of PAF, the way they utilized would be second to none. If anything it's your military-politic nexus that lets you down all the time.

 

[zip]

you are gravely mistaken. Kargil was a huge victory for Pakistani Army and Musharraf, they won Pakistani Administration for almost a decade. Musharraf gained presidency, it was a brilliant move for him.

That will complete the equation.. Kargil was a great strategy to alienate civil administration.. This strategy can be used in future too by another ambitious general at expense of few soldiers.

 

[MastanKhan]

I will focus on this part of your post. I did read the rest and thanks for sharing that.

Structure of the cost for capital goods > includes Unit price + operational cost - concessions - claims + Training + Service contract.

Given JF17 JV and mirage 3/5 rebuild factory and procured used , following is the cost makeup, lets do a simple weighted point exercise.

View attachment 308446

No matter how you look at it, F16's are more cost effective than m2k, and came with enormous political concessions at the time of induction. Once inducted there initial cost was high enough that to lower it's operational cost and give PAF a fighting edge larger numbers would make operational cost and service cost sense.

M2K on the other hand could have not provided the same amount of concessions, and neither were the upgrades cost effective, to upgrade a fleet of 50 odd units we are paying almost the price of brand new ones. F16's brought the best price to value within the limited budget of PAF, the way they utilized would be second to none. If anything it's your military-politic nexus that lets you down all the time.

Hi,

In the late 80's and 90's in interior sindh province---there was a lots of lawlessness---highway robberies---gun point robberies---killings and kidnapping for ransom---the villagers got tired of it and wanted to take charge---. So---many of them travelled to Landi Kotal area to buy similar weapons the dacoits had---the AK47---. When the gun sellers found out these people are in need---they raised the prices from 5 to 10 times what they were selling for before.

So---either they buy---or they die----.

See---the utility of the M2K is a known factor---also its cost of operation---I need the aircraft---it ownership is a must---no ifs and buts about it----. So---in order for me to get this aircraft----I have to change my way of thinking of how to make good use of this utility.

My air chief says that he needs 54 aircraft---3 sqdrn's. I am fine with 54 F16's and know their cost of operation and I am fine with that----but the cost of operation of the M2K is about 2500 dollars more per hour---and it would be big drain over the long run---parts are expensive too---and upgrades as well.

As a salesman---my goal is to make a sale and provide direction and guidance of how the sale can be made---and make it a win win situation for the operator and the seller as well.

As I study the situation deeper---I see that the 3 sqdrn's would cover all the bases and flanks with comfort and ease---so that gives me an idea---what if I put a little squeeze on the air force and tell them----3 sqdrn's of M2K's cannot happen---can you work with less---can you operate efficiently with a lesser number of air craft---and give me the minimum number that you could live with and still be effective----.

They go out---do their trick and come back and tell me that we can do it with 2 1/2 sqdrn's---. I ask them how about 2 sqdrn's---. Either it is two sqdrn's or nothing---they say we will take it.

So I go to negotiate the deal for 45 aircraft---that is 2 1/2 sqdrn's---the remaining funds for 9 aircraft---I will put in a 10 years fixed depost account to give me earning to cover the extra cost of maintenance and upgrades---for that I will have to work with the seller to adjust the price to build my savings account.

So--I go back and give them the good news and tell them how we will manage the repairs and upkeep----. So---now I may have multiple usage of those funds in the fixed account---. I am getting interest that I give to the air force to make up for the difference in cost of operation of the F16 to M2K's---and thenI have the opportunity to get a line credit against that amount in the savings account to get some extra goodies .

So--even if 50-75 million dollar would be diverted towards the fixed savings account every time when the payment went in---the interest would be substantial bt the time delivery started to happen.

Wars are not about dollars and cents.

 

[A-Team]

Did you read question of the the original poster? or you can't help vomiting?

I did read his question and posted a counter argument. I was referring to the folly of the whole exercise and of course current Pakistani policies vis-a-vis its neighbours.

/Peace.

PS : Is it hard to digest others people's arguments who are obtuse to yours without obscenities?

 

[guest11]

@MastanKhan Stumbled onto this gem, thought you might find it interesting if you haven't already read it.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...ing-4o-mirage-2000s-from-france/1/306146.html

 

[BetterPakistan]

Dear A-Team nice to hear that Afghanistan is progressing.
But as Pakistan is stuck in stone age, kindly can you take your refugees back ?

no afghanistan will say that they will isolate Pak diplomatically and on the other side will beg Pak to extend their refugee status

 

[ravi gupta]

If PAF had been involved in the planning phase, the result of Kargil war would have been very different.

Why PAF has not been involved.
If you know the reason read Taufil Kuasar blog.The reason he mention his.

1)PAF does not have BVR missile.
2)Availibility of F-16 due to lack of spares.

 

[CorporateAffairs]

Wish, PAF, PN and whatever forces you have should have participated.
The issue would have been settled once and for all.
Better luck next time.

 

[Windjammer]

Kargil conflict was the only time the IAF performed in it's history, only because.
1: It was operating within it's own side of the border.
2: There was no air opposition.
3: The operation was limited to a few hill tops.
4: The location of Indian posts occupied by the Guerilla fighters and NLI was well known to the IAF and IA.
5: Despite having the above knowledge, the Indians were still hapless until US provided them with satellite imagery.
6: After initially failing to hit any targets, the IAF only managed to make some successful strikes after assistance from the Israelis.
7: Since all the fighting was taking place on Indian side of border, there was no question of PAF intervening.
8: The few times IAF ventured over the border, it paid the price.
While Indians keep show boating about MiG-29 locking on the F-16, they even went as far as rewarding the Fulcrum pilot for achieving this from within his own air space, however you seldom hear of such incidents such as where a flight of F-16s trailed a formation of MiG-29s for about 20 minutes, the Indian pilots were completely oblivious of the Falcons trailing them until warned by their GCI, at which the MiG piltos jinxed so violently that they nearly crashed into each other.
PAF never made big deal out of such incidents as both air forces remained within own borders but i guess it's habitual for Indians to start chest thumping on every little detail....probably helps with their moral.

 

[livingdead]

To a point you are correct. Indian and Pakistani's are different in terms of Two Nation Theory. The Reality is that the Hindu's started of their civilisation on the banks of River Indus and called themselves as Indus Civilisation, unfortunately they were unable to tame the River and then the Arian invasion made them leave and settle on the Ganges. Here the Indian Civilisation was born...Hence the Indians want to come and take this land...same as the Jews.

The issue with the the Jews is that land was promised to them by God. There is a big difference one is promised land and the other is abandoned land.

In an other thread I mentioned a nuclear war would not be an option because all the countries that poses a nuclear weapon are in this region and they have their capitals very close together. Moreover the mountains would also play a much more devastating effect of a nuclear explosion hence no country would survive this. The effects of monsoon and western disturbances would also play a major role so it is not advisable for a nuclear war.

The Muslim Culture and Islam would still remain where are the Hinduism would have a greater loss. Even though the number of people are living all across the globe who are Hindu but that is no way as great as that of Muslims. Do you deny this?

Why the military only says what you have said is because they do not want to make the entire world worried.

If you remember after the Tsunami Fukashima Nuclear Leak radiation was recorded all across the world and it was found to be within limits in Europe and USA but high in Japan. China did not publish any figures. There was also an app developed for the cell phones to monitor radiation levels.

So if 5 nuclear explosions take place in the world the entire planet can be under serious radiation... There was a report a few years back regarding this.

man, I am not sure if the people who lived in indus valley were hindus... I mean they were most likely not hindus if you go by history strictly, there is no evidence.
Anyway, you are digressing from what you said, my assertion is nuclear blackmail works upto a point(pakistan's own territorial integrity is not violated) but not when pakistan tries to invade part of any country. Even afgans wont take that sh*t nor will Iranians. Why do you think Indians will do. I mean you really think Indian leadership will say oh they got nukes, tough luck, let them occupy whatever bit they are on, coz even if we nuke all of them they will destroy all hindus. Thats not how our leadership thinks, I am pretty sure you know that.

 

[notorious_eagle]

you are gravely mistaken. Kargil was a huge victory for Pakistani Army and Musharraf, they won Pakistani Administration for almost a decade. Musharraf gained presidency, it was a brilliant move for him.

Bitter but true. Although, you're giving too much credit to Musharraf. He never eyed the Presidency at the time, he was content with with an extension to his COAS tenure. But due to nature of events and lady luck, Musharraf gained the Presidency.

Kargil is a supreme example of when merit is not followed. Lt Gen Ali Kuli Khan should have been the Officer promoted to the COAS Post which he rightly deserved, and knowing him personally, i can assure you that never in a million years would he have made a blunder like Kargil. Its astonishing how short sighted PA's General Staff was, there was never a Plan B, C or D.

One only needs to speak to a PAF pilot who served during the 90' to know how helpless the PAF was during Kargil. Kaiser Tufail is a good source but he is talking as one of the premier pilots and as a very higher up. Majority of our pilots were practically flying blind, the F16's were largely grounded, and the F6 pilots could only pray to Allah that somehow miraculously they could manage to intercept the low flying Jaguars. On the fringes, IAF was practically free to bomb targets at will and haul back home.