What role could PAF have played in the Kargil war??

[MastanKhan]

This is incorrect.

The PAF was handicapped by a severe shortage of spares, and would not have been able to support the Army in its efforts. It is another thing that the Army did not seek its help in the first place, and effectively kept it in the dark until the operation had started.



.

Hi,

My apologies for not making it easier to understand----. Sanctions is a SOB STORY----tell me please----if your mother or wife was dying of cancer---what would you not do to find the medicine with the cash that you have.

It was the job of the air force to find the aircraft---they found it---but screwed up the deal. Out of the three forces---the army is the most cunning---and then the navy---in our case----for the U S---it would be navy first----.

The air force jocks are not the brightest of the bulbs on the light pole---. They don't need the deceit---deception---larceny---connivance---thievry of the land forces or the naval forces to survive---. As everything is served to them on a platter---their tendency to use their brains is often diminished----because they are living in a totally different world.

And as most of their operations and sorties are singular----they become absolute single minded ars-eholes---it becomes me me and me----their perception and vision narrows and they get into the zone where there is nobody else----and when there is God worship for their kind----it just adds to their delusion of glory and grandeur.

I have not come across a fighter pilot who does not like to kiss his lips in the mirror---.

They created the sanctions Joe---. When they got the first batch of the F16's---well wishers told them---get the M2k's----. When they went buying for the second batch---well wishers again told them----don't fall into that same hole again----keep diversity so that sanctions don't effect you---but no---they bulled their way thru---till they got trapped by the sanctions---.

The sanctions just did not happen like that---they had their fair share of warnings----. The sanctions would not have hit---if they had gone ahead and bought the M2ks---because then the sanctions would be worthless.

Honest people should not make defense deals---honesty should be in the evaluation---a deal has it 's own kinks---they need to be handled in that manner.

So---when the paf did not show up at kargil---it was their fault for not having the right aircraft---and not the army's fault.

And if they were not informed---big deal---they found out about kargil ahead of time---so from that moment on---it was their responsibility to be ready for the strike.

In my business, I have seen people lose their career for not doing something when they found out that there was a problem---that they did not star---but they could fix it.

That is why---I am a firm believer of No Korean defense minister treatment for the Boys in the blue heirarchy from 9/11 onwards.

 

[Joe Shearer]

hmm kargil, ? i have some self experiences to share ,two PAF jets(district Attock in a valley between mountains 10:00am ) heading east ,very low altitude flying ,speed and sound almost breaking everything.(next day news came Pakistan shoot down indian gets.) .That was a real face of war also shows PAF strength

i remember we drop one Pak Army to his home ,he just came for a night,yes Mujahideens are fully with PAK Army,mostly a officer teach them where to go and how ,also establishing posts in enemy area.

Musharaf plan was excellent to cut the supply line,but what happen next,remains a mestry ever

There was no PAF involvement, and the Indian jet (not jets) and helicopter were shot down by Stinger missiles. There were no Mujahideen, only NLI soldiers in mufti.

None of this is a mystery except to those with reading difficulties.

 

[Yousafzai_M]

Ok this may sound harsh to some. No trolling please!

Is it the same war where Pakistani establishment maintained that it's the Freedom Fighters from Kashmir fighting the Indian occupiers?

Is it me or do I see some parallels as some in Pakistan who maintain that Afghan Talis are freedom fighters, fighting occupiers and the infidel Afghan government.

Seems nothing has changed in the mindset of Pakistani establishment? But one things has changed and that is India is an economic power with over a trillion dollar economy, Afghanistan is emerging albeit still long way to go, and Pakistani establishment seems to be still stuck in engineering proxies abroad.

Makes you think! No? You don't need to be a genius to realize that Pakistan needs a serious pivot.

Did you read question of the the original poster? or you can't help vomiting?

 

[Joe Shearer]

This is patently untrue, and a complete fabrication.

The destruction of Muntho Dhalo ammo dumps and supply lines inside Pakistan happened way later in the war, a long time AFTER India lost aircrafts to MANPADS. It was only when one chopper and one low flying Jaguar were shot down by stingers/anzas, that India realized how well equipped the intruders were. After that IAF immediately changed strategy, and used high flying Mirages and LGBs, with Mig-29s giving fighter cover. That ensured they could stay out of range of the MANPADs, and that PAF would not shoot down the strike aircrafts.

The sequence of events happened opposite of how you claimed.

The aircraft shot down was a MiG21, in a close air support role.

The rest of your post is very accurate.

Hi,

My apologies for not making it easier to understand----. Sanctions is a SOB STORY----tell me pleased----if your mother or wife was dying of cancer---what would you not do to find the medicine with the cash that you have.

It was the job of the air force to find the aircraft---they found it---but screwed up the deal. Out of the three forces---the army is the most cunning---and then the navy---in our case----for the U S---it would be navy first----.

The air force jocks are not the brightest pr the sharpest bulbs on the light pole---. They don't need the deceit---deception---larceny---connivance---thievry of the land forces or the naval forces to survive---. As everything is served to them on a platter---their tendency to use their brains is often diminished----because they are living in a totally different world.

And as most of their operations and sorties are singular----they become absolute single ars-eholes---it becomes me me and me----their perception and vision narrows and the get into the zone where there is nobody else----and when their is God worship for their kind----it just adds to their dellusion of glory and grandeur.

I have not come across a fighter pilot who does not like to kiss his lips in the mirror---.

They created the sanctions Joe---. When they got the first batch of the F16's---well wishers told them---get the M2k's----. When they went buying for the second batch---well wishers again told them----don't fall into that same hole again----keep diversity so that sanctions don't effect you---but no---they bulled their way thru---till they got trapped by the sanctions---.

The sanctions just did not happen like that---they had their fair share of warnings----. The sanctions would not have hit---if they had gone ahead and bought the M2ks---because then the sanctions would be worthless.

Honest people should not make defense deals---honesty should be in the evaluation---a deal has it s own kinks---they need to be handled in that manner.

So---when the paf did not show up at kargil---it was their fault for not having the right aircraft---and not the army's fault.

And if they were not informed---big deal---they found out about kargil ahead of time---so from that moment on---it was their responsibility to be ready for the strike.

In my business, I have seen people lose their career for not doing something when they found out that there was a problem---that they did not star---but they could fix it.

That is why---I am a firm believer of No Korean defense minister treatment for the Boys in the blue heirarchy from 9/11 onwards.

Point brilliantly made.

I hope this post is widely read. I do not agree with it entirely; in my humble opinion, the PAF is your outstanding service. But the way you have put things is really beyond the rest of us.

 

[MastanKhan]

Point brilliantly made.

I hope this post is widely read. I do not agree with it entirely; in my humble opinion, the PAF is your outstanding service. But the way you have put things is really beyond the rest of us.

sir,

When that belief of outstanding gets into your head---and you start believing in it as well---that creates a problem---.

 

[war&peace]

Hi,

My apologies for not making it easier to understand----. Sanctions is a SOB STORY----tell me please----if your mother or wife was dying of cancer---what would you not do to find the medicine with the cash that you have.

It was the job of the air force to find the aircraft---they found it---but screwed up the deal. Out of the three forces---the army is the most cunning---and then the navy---in our case----for the U S---it would be navy first----.

The air force jocks are not the brightest of the bulbs on the light pole---. They don't need the deceit---deception---larceny---connivance---thievry of the land forces or the naval forces to survive---. As everything is served to them on a platter---their tendency to use their brains is often diminished----because they are living in a totally different world.

And as most of their operations and sorties are singular----they become absolute single minded ars-eholes---it becomes me me and me----their perception and vision narrows and they get into the zone where there is nobody else----and when there is God worship for their kind----it just adds to their delusion of glory and grandeur.

I have not come across a fighter pilot who does not like to kiss his lips in the mirror---.

They created the sanctions Joe---. When they got the first batch of the F16's---well wishers told them---get the M2k's----. When they went buying for the second batch---well wishers again told them----don't fall into that same hole again----keep diversity so that sanctions don't effect you---but no---they bulled their way thru---till they got trapped by the sanctions---.

The sanctions just did not happen like that---they had their fair share of warnings----. The sanctions would not have hit---if they had gone ahead and bought the M2ks---because then the sanctions would be worthless.

Honest people should not make defense deals---honesty should be in the evaluation---a deal has it 's own kinks---they need to be handled in that manner.

So---when the paf did not show up at kargil---it was their fault for not having the right aircraft---and not the army's fault.

And if they were not informed---big deal---they found out about kargil ahead of time---so from that moment on---it was their responsibility to be ready for the strike.

In my business, I have seen people lose their career for not doing something when they found out that there was a problem---that they did not star---but they could fix it.

That is why---I am a firm believer of No Korean defense minister treatment for the Boys in the blue heirarchy from 9/11 onwards.

Your approach is pragmatic and that's what prevails in the world. Even the so called highest developed nations of Scandinavian region, do all sorts of cunning things when it come to international deals ....Bofors corruption case in India is just one example.

 

[kadamba-warrior]

Pakistan was under Sanctions....The rest you are saying one can not continue on arguing what was first.

I have often seen Pakistanis making this absurd excuse, but pray tell me -- why did Pakistani Establishment even attempt a misadventure of this magnitude when it was "obviously" so much handicapped with sanctions, failing economy et al.?

You guys make it sound as if the Kargil war was "imposed" on an "unsuspecting" Pakistan.

Chest thumping and excuse-making aside, the only thing that both countries achieved in the end with this unnecessary and avoidable confrontation was the loss of hundreds if not thousands, of precious lives! But at least, Pakistan can't claim to be the innocent or the aggrieved party.

 

[MastanKhan]

Your approach is pragmatic and that's what prevails in the world. Even the so called highest developed nations of Scandinavian region, do all sorts of cunning things when it come to international deals ....Bofors corruption case in India is just one example.

Hi,

Thanks for brining that up----. The indians were gone crazy over that scandal---they had a brain freeze---not understanding that regardless of what----Bofors 155mm howitzers were one of the best---. And they proved themselves at Kargil.

As much I dislike Benazir and Zardari---there is one thing that most people don know---before we bought the french subs---our navy was lookign at the british subs---the deal was almosr done---but Benzair / Zardari stepped and cancelled it and went for the French subs.

The funny thing is that similar British subs had a very low life elsewhere---around 10 years of service---but the French ones that we got---lasted a long time---much much longer---if any pak navy personal wants to discredit it---please let me know---.

There is something about the French---swedish and american ( other than sanctions ) made weapons---you can always bet your's and your country's welfare on it and they will come thru---.

So---I don't have any clue---why pak navy would reject scorpion and go for the the german.

What tells me that there was a lack of communication and a lack of understanding between the forces. Why would anyone create a scenario to let go of the patronage of france when it comes to weapons---I cannot comprehend.

 

[MilSpec]

I have often seen Pakistanis making this absurd excuse, but pray tell me -- why did Pakistani Establishment even attempt a misadventure of this magnitude when it was "obviously" so much handicapped with sanctions, failing economy et al.?

You guys make it sound as if the Kargil war was "imposed" on an "unsuspecting" Pakistan.

Chest thumping and excuse-making aside, the only thing that both countries achieved in the end with this unnecessary and avoidable confrontation was the loss of hundreds if not thousands, of precious lives! But at least, Pakistan can't claim to be the innocent or the aggrieved party.

you are gravely mistaken. Kargil was a huge victory for Pakistani Army and Musharraf, they won Pakistani Administration for almost a decade. Musharraf gained presidency, it was a brilliant move for him.

 

[SQ8]

you are gravely mistaken. Kargil was a huge victory for Pakistani Army and Musharraf, they won Pakistani Administration for almost a decade. Musharraf gained presidency, it was a brilliant move for him.

You will be reported, but few will get the gist of what you said.

 

[war&peace]

Hi,

Thanks for brining that up----. The indians were gone crazy over that scandal---they had a brain freeze---not understanding that regardless of what----Bofors 155mm howitzers were one of the best---. And they proved themselves at Kargil.

As much I dislike Benazir and Zardari---there is one thing that most people don know---before we bought the french subs---our navy was lookign at the british subs---the deal was almosr done---but Benzair / Zardari stepped and cancelled it and went for the French subs.

The funny thing is that similar British subs had a very low life elsewhere---around 10 years of service---but the French ones that we got---lasted a long time---much much longer---if any pak navy personal wants to discredit it---please let me know---.

There is something about the French---swedish and american ( other than sanctions ) made weapons---you can always bet your's and your country's welfare on it and they will come thru---.

So---I don't have any clue---why pak navy would reject scorpion and go for the the german.

What tells me that there was a lack of communication and a lack of understanding between the forces. Why would anyone create a scenario to let go of the patronage of france when it comes to weapons---I cannot comprehend.

I share an incident that when it comes big military deals and purchase of weapon systems, both Pak and Indian militaries are like a clueless village girl in a big shopping mall,.....she has no freaking idea what to buy...spends the whole day there and goes back empty handed...Pakistan Airforce was interested in French system, and they also wanted to do spin tests of JF-17 in wind tunnels owned by Onera (France) and Qinetiq (UK) which at that time China lacked or did not offer..whatever....PAF officers started visiting France so frequently that French appointed a permanent officer in Islamabad so as to avoid them and I guess IAF is just a next level....how they have done with Rafael.

 

[MilSpec]

K

Hi,

Thanks for brining that up----. The indians were gone crazy over that scandal---they had a brain freeze---not understanding that regardless of what----Bofors 155mm howitzers were one of the best---. And they proved themselves at Kargil.

As much I dislike Benazir and Zardari---there is one thing that most people don know---before we bought the french subs---our navy was lookign at the british subs---the deal was almosr done---but Benzair / Zardari stepped and cancelled it and went for the French subs.

The funny thing is that similar British subs had a very low life elsewhere---around 10 years of service---but the French ones that we got---lasted a long time---much much longer---if any pak navy personal wants to discredit it---please let me know---.

There is something about the French---swedish and american ( other than sanctions ) made weapons---you can always bet your's and your country's welfare on it and they will come thru---.

So---I don't have any clue---why pak navy would reject scorpion and go for the the german.

What tells me that there was a lack of communication and a lack of understanding between the forces. Why would anyone create a scenario to let go of the patronage of france when it comes to weapons---I cannot comprehend.

Do not take this negative sense, but let me humbly ask if you managed any capital equipment acquisition?

I appreciate your strong views on PAF, albiet do not agree one bit on it. If anything in any objective evaluation, PAF's CAPEX management has been miles ahead of PA and PN multiplied.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir with due respect in your past post u used word moron for PAF officials which is quite offend able perhaps not in Us but in Pak some remarks are not remarks they mean much more.

The crux of above post was to rectify only one point that military purchases decision lies with Ministry of Defense in Pakistan off course after approval from PM and funds released by Ministry of Finance. Hope u get my point because there are many people on this forum who either have their closest ones in Military/defense sector or have served there.
So despite facing hardships they are ready to shed their own lives for this country same is case more or less with our Military personnel. So please use some soft language as morons are morons no matter where they are.

Sir,

They still let the nation down multiple times---so---regardless of whose relatives they are---they deceived their motherland---pakistan---.

Procurement is a TEAM effort---gamesmanship---strategy---current needs and future projections---.

Procurement is also a battle with the enemy---. You make the right deal on the right equipment---you have won a battle---if you make enough right deals---you constrict the enemy's abilities and take away its venom.

There was a close to 10 billion dollars deal sitting on the table----5 billion for the fighter aircraft---and possibly 5 billion for the submarine as @war&peace reminded me okay---and your most reliable supplier was willing---eager---ready and desperate to make a deal.

You pakistani---in your thick headedness have no clue how big a favor you were going to do to France by being the first customer to order the Rafale---.

French were scared shi-tless when they had not orders of Rafale---the production line had slowed to a crawl and engineers and assemblers and manufacturers were barely getting enough hours building aircraft.

French were seriously concerned that if they did not get any orders---their fighter aircraft industry would be finished once these engineers and techs were laid off---.

So---pakistan & paf had the magic wand in its hands---it missed the opportunity for an forever obligation of the French aeronautical industry.

In all actuality---they were not doing France any favors---but pakistan a big favor as well.

Today---all our JF17's would have been flying with avionics package similar to the Gripen NG with french engines---.

Pakistan air force cannot be forgiven for this deception to the motherland---.

PAF snatched DEFEAT from the jaws of VICTORY---not the first time---not the second time---not the third time---but the fourth time or more in the last 30 + years.

They chose failure over success over and over-----everytime since the war of 1965.

 

[war&peace]

Sir,

They still let the nation down multiple times---so---regardless of whose relatives they are---they deceived their motherland---pakistan---.

Procurement is a TEAM effort---gamesmanship---strategy---current needs and future projections---.

Procurement is also a battle with the enemy---. You make the right deal on the right equipment---you have won a battle---if you make enough right deals---you constrict the enemy's abilities and take away its venom.

There was a close to 10 billion dollars deal sitting on the table----5 billion for the fighter aircraft---and possibly 5 billion for the submarine as @war&peace reminded me okay---and your most reliable supplier was willing---eager---ready and desperate to make a deal.

You pakistani---in your thick headedness have no clue how big a favor you were going to do to France by being the first customer to order the Rafale---.

French were scared shi-tless when they had not orders of Rafale---the production line had slowed to a crawl and engineers and assemblers and manufacturers were barely getting enough hours building aircraft.

French were seriously concerned that if they did not get any orders---their fighter aircraft industry would be finished once these engineers and techs were laid off---.

So---pakistan & paf had the magic wand in its hands---it missed the opportunity for an forever obligation of the French aeronautical industry.

In all actuality---they were not doing France any favors---but pakistan a big favor as well.

Today---all our JF17's would have been flying with avionics package similar to the Gripen NG with french engines---.

Pakistan air force cannot be forgiven for this deception to the motherland---.

PAF snatched DEFEAT from the jaws of VICTORY---not the first time---not the second time---not the third time---but the fourth time or more in the last 30 + years.

They chose failure over success over and over-----everytime since the war of 1965.

France has always been the most neutral and honest country when it comes to purchasing/selling of weapon systems in the sense, they offer their tech without a baggage ...their only limitation is that, they do not or cannot accept credit cards

 

[kadamba-warrior]

you are gravely mistaken. Kargil was a huge victory for Pakistani Army and Musharraf, they won Pakistani Administration for almost a decade. Musharraf gained presidency, it was a brilliant move for him.

If that was Musharraf's primary objective out of a Kargil adventure (which I doubt, it was), Nawaz was played for a sucker - big time.

I always thought that Nawaz was in it all the time, waiting to take credit for the whole thing WHEN (NOT "if". There was never an "if" in their minds) "PA walked in to Siachen to mop up the dead bodies of hundreds of Indians left hungry, out in the cold"! Too bad, it blew up in their face and Nawaz was lucky just to escape the fate similar to that of ZA Bhutto in the end!

But I am aghast at the failures of the Indian Intelligence to pick such clear and obvious signals of the impending offensive that the enemy himself is left wondering how they were missed! And I don't believe Indian Intelligence has improved significantly since.