What role could PAF have played in the Kargil war??

[ayesha.a]

THANKS FOR NOT NOTICING about few scrap fallen in PAKISTAN TERRITORY

Maybe I need new glasses!

 

[Jamwal's]

IAF was bombing our solider's positions with BVR missiles and causing heavy casualties.

LGB not BVR missile.

Also, There was no BVR used during kargil war but R 60 during the shot down of PN Atlantique.It is not BVR.

Secondly, as a professional force, PAF should've had provided a much needed Air support to the besieged NLI troops especially on Tololing, Pt 4875 and Tiger Hill.

The importance of CAS is also mentioned in the US Army Research Paper on Kargil war apart from Artillery.

However, i don't know if PAF had BVR capability during Kargil war.


Meanwhile below are the pics of IAF Airstrikes on Pak Forward LoC posts, this was before the cease fire 2003.

Also, you can see how much risk IAF took flying too close to LOC right under the threat of Pak SAMs.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Don't you think both the bold lines are contradictory? Plan was the most horrible as it simply did not take geo-politics in account...

The plan was Brilliant and USA STILL being a Pakistani ALLY was its strongest point

It happened after the Nuclear tests BUT ALSO after the Lahore Visit by Vajpayee

Lahore visit was India's INITIATIVE to cool down Global fears of an imminent Nuclear war

And just THREE months later we were fighting a war

So India became the GOOD Guy who had tried for peace but got betrayed

Now the question about India's Military response

It was VERY easy for Indian Army and IAF to cross the LOC But that would have meant
raising the Nuclear fears again in the world

So we had to fight with restraint but this is what changed the Global opinion
In FAVOUR of India

After May 1998 India was seen as rouge state

After Kargil -- India became a RESPONSIBLE Nuclear weapons state

That is what we achieved from Kargil -- ie in addition to beating Pakistan militarily once again

 

[jetray]

Since PAF was not involved in the Kargil war, and that put our soldiers in very grave danger since they didn't have the Airsupport and IAF was bombing our solider's positions with BVR missiles and causing heavy casualties.



So, in a hypothetical scenario if PAF was actually involved in that war (and taken into confidence during the planning/execution stages and assigned a role), what role could they have played?? Could they have provided the Pak soliders with solid air cover or not? I doubt they could have engaged themselves in air to air combat with IAF planes (which remember were BVR enabled) and PAF planes was not. But still limiting the PAF role to basically nothing and letting them see our positions getting bombed was a suicide move . They should've been assigned some role in that war.



So what role the PAF could have played considering the fact that they lacked the BVR technology ?? was IAF having the BVR tech. the deciding factor in PAF not getting involved or what?



Also could PAF having the BVR tech. have changed the fate of that war??

One word, Spectator.

Ok this may sound harsh to some. No trolling please!

Is it the same war where Pakistani establishment maintained that it's the Freedom Fighters from Kashmir fighting the Indian occupiers?

Is it me or do I see some parallels as some in Pakistan who maintain that Afghan Talis are freedom fighters, fighting occupiers and the infidel Afghan government.

Seems nothing has changed in the mindset of Pakistani establishment? But one things has changed and that is India is an economic power with over a trillion dollar economy, Afghanistan is emerging albeit still long way to go, and Pakistani establishment seems to be still stuck in engineering proxies abroad.

Makes you think! No? You don't need to be a genius to realize that Pakistan needs a serious pivot.

In jungle, might is right. would pakistan do the same thing Iran ? no. Greater the ability to respond and hit back lesser the chances of such adventure.

Musharaf was seriously a dumb*** to go ahead with the plan, without informing the civilian govt. PAF chief , PN chief etc etc, in any other country he'd have got court martialed except for Pakistan where he became the President of the country soon after war (where he was solely responsible for putting the lives of Pak soldiers on the line for basically nothing)..


I think if Kargil was to happen, it should've been years ago prolly in the Zia era (when Siachin dispute was hot) with proper planning and tactics involving all units .

Kargil was one hell of a hare brained war , which simply shed blood on both sides. Not expecting India to retaliate is ridiculous idea at the best.

The issue is, it never considered pakistan as a state with ppl but more as a army state where only damage to army was unaccepatble . It was the same in 1965, attack kashmir but not expect retaliation in other parts of border like punjab. Even Indian army can attack pakistan , inflict heavy causalities , cause them immense loss and lessen the pakistan army fire power. But that would come at the cost of civilians , hence Indian army under civilian control never indulges in such shenanigans.

It would have gone Nuclear as soon as Actual line of Control was violated. Both India and Pakistan did not want that because it was too soon after the declaration of becoming Nuclear States.

bogus stuff, such thing will never happen. This is just a self serving statement for pakistans benefit.

Hoping for a day where countries in our region can learn to accept each other and learn to live with each other.

True but that will never happen, it requires statesman to lead their country towards progress & peace.

Actually both armies had that "habit", and that was a tacit understanding between the two, that Pakistan deliberately violated. You can read that on any neutral source, and even Pakistani ones.

Thats right, it is a unwritten agreement. Pakistan knew very well if those positions are captured India will fight back to capture it. Even if India tried occupying pakistani posts the same thing would have happened.

Hi,

It was due to the failure of the paf to get the right aircraft that when the war started---they were a no show.

It is the same way now---if a conflict starts---paf has not much to show---.

Now if the paf was well equipped---that would have been a different story---.

You fight a war with what you have not with what you want. India or pakistan will always need more & more weapons to defeat each other. As such it is ridiculous to have such thoughts that one will over come other with better weapons. it will only lead to economic doom.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Pakistan was Hoping for a ceasefire --- Brought about by Nuclear SCARE mongering
which would have changed the LOC permanently

We said that NO -- we will take back our territory and then declare ceasefire

So since we fighting ONLY for taking back what was ours there was no question of escalation
or a nuclear war

However India made it clear that in case we could not evict them we will Open
another front

But that need never arose

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

IAF jets -- Mirage 2000 and Mig 29s crossed into the LOC -- from 5 Miles to 13 Miles
But were Not challenged by PAF

As stated earlier PAF did not fire at IAF aircraft because they were under strickt orders that the debree should fall within the territory of Pakistan. Other wise coflict would go to a full Nuclear War.

Both the Armies observed that practice of abandoning the Posts
in winter

But Kargil was something else -- It was supposed to be revenge for Siachen

But it turned to be a bigger disaster

From 1984 to 1989 when we were fighting in Siachen
-- NO country in this world knew about it

But every country saw what Happened in Kargil

Again as stated in an earlier post enemies try to find a weakness in the defences of the opponents hence they design various tactics.

If indeed it was a revenge for Siachen then Indian Army Cheif along with Defence Minister and the the strategist should have been hanged. They should have known that some action would be taken to avenge Siachen and still they slept over it.

This is patently untrue, and a complete fabrication.

The destruction of Muntho Dhalo ammo dumps and supply lines inside Pakistan happened way later in the war, a long time AFTER India lost aircrafts to MANPADS. It was only when one chopper and one low flying Jaguar were shot down by stingers/anzas, that India realized how well equipped the intruders were. After that IAF immediately changed strategy, and used high flying Mirages and LGBs, with Mig-29s giving fighter cover. That ensured they could stay out of range of the MANPADs, and that PAF would not shoot down the strike aircrafts.

The sequence of events happened opposite of how you claimed.

We can not fight on how one claims because no one would win in such an argument. This might be done when all parties to this conflict give their actual counts and then they are authenticated.

Its quite simple, what happened after - India retaliated. Mushy did not expect the retaliation to be so swift and on such a large scale. Read the globalsecurity article I linked above.

Another factor was that they expected local support from Indian Kashmiris, but like 1965, that did not materialize.

Two miscalculations. That "excellent" in your sentence doesn't hold true.



India used air force and artillery, because we had that choice.

You always use everything you have, in the way that maximizes your chances of victory. If Pak did not expect India to use either, that was seriously horrible planning.

It was not miscalculation on part of the Mujahidin (Freedom Fighters) but if you say Pakistan Army then it can be said they did not coordinate with the other forces and took the Parliament in confidence.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Again as stated in an earlier post enemies try to find a weakness in the defences of the opponents hence they design various tactics.

If indeed it was a revenge for Siachen then Indian Army Cheif along with Defence Minister and the the strategist should have been hanged. They should have known that some action would be taken to avenge Siachen and still they slept over it.

You are RIGHT about that -- It was an Intelligence failure

But in our defence ; we took the LAHORE peace process seriously

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

bogus stuff, such thing will never happen. This is just a self serving statement for pakistans benefit.

One can not say it is bogus...

Do not push the enemy that far that there is no other choice then to take his own life. That is the point which can not be pointed out in advance. We both know that if a nuclear explosion takes place in Pakistan then India would also have its effects and the same is true the other way around.

 

[Post Colonnial]

Pakistan, either by design or sheer accident, always manage to brilliantly wriggle out of situations. They got caught proliferating and made it out as illegal A.Q.Khan operation. They gt slammed in Kargil and they twisted to Musharraf commanding mujahiddeen on horse back.

You can never accuse Pakistan of strategy.

 

[ayesha.a]

We can not fight on how one claims because no one would win in such an argument. This might be done when all parties to this conflict give their actual counts and then they are authenticated.

The IAF has given its account of events, and they state what I said. The PAF or PA hasn't been forthcoming about the war, and probably never will be. So I cannot see how you can assert your version, since your side hasn't said so.

Even by news reports, presidential citations for the martyred air force officers etc, you can establish which event happened first. Unless you claim that all those are fabricated.

The strikes at Munto Dhalo base camps happened later in the war. Israeli LGBs had to be procured and then integrated very quickly on mirages, when we realized that the intruders had MANPADs, and so using Jaguars and choppers was risky. Precision bombing from high altitude was the safest way, and we didn't have that capability until after the early losses.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

I am not even talking about how PAF, PN had no clue

General Musharaf was taking a GAMBLE

If he had succeded -- LOC would have changed and Siachen would have been LOST

But A similar previous plan by Pakistan Army was turned down by Benazir Bhutto
government

So may be General Musharraf DID NOT want any nay sayers to scuttle his plan

The rewards IF they would have materialised would have been entirely his

 

[jetray]

One can not say it is bogus...

Do not push the enemy that far that there is no other choice then to take his own life. That is the point which can not be pointed out in advance. We both know that if a nuclear explosion takes place in Pakistan then India would also have its effects and the same is true the other way around.

Thats a theory propagated by military saying if we lose war again we will use nukes but let civilians suffer the consequences. Where will pakistanis go after nuking India? to afghanistan ? Threatening to commit suicide has its limits.

You are RIGHT about that -- It was an Intelligence failure

But in our defence ; we took the LAHORE peace process seriously

Yes it was indeed intelligence failure but on strategic front no one expected such ridiculous incomplete idea. The very same thing failed in 1965. Why would some one shed so much blood for few extra miles of territory but at the same time not expect enemy to retaliate. Its childish at the best.

 

[livingdead]

Musharaf was seriously a dumb*** to go ahead with the plan, without informing the civilian govt. PAF chief , PN chief etc etc, in any other country he'd have got court martialed except for Pakistan where he became the President of the country soon after war (where he was solely responsible for putting the lives of Pak soldiers on the line for basically nothing)..


I think if Kargil was to happen, it should've been years ago prolly in the Zia era (when Siachin dispute was hot) with proper planning and tactics involving all units .

you will be singing different tune if Musharaf succeeded. If IA had found no way to recover the peaks after few months, it would have opened new front in punjab.
Had IA opened punjab front, international players would have got involved and it would have been a stalemate(I doubt IA can make much gain in a week or two). The whole kashmir issue would have been in UN, and pak forces/mujahids would be sitting on icy mountains even now.

His plan was quite good.

 

[ayesha.a]

It was not miscalculation on part of the Mujahidin (Freedom Fighters) but if you say Pakistan Army then it can be said they did not coordinate with the other forces and took the Parliament in confidence.

The mujahids were sent in by the PA, he planning was done by PA. The masterminds were PA's generals, not the mujahideen. It was a gross miscalculation from the army command, that India couldn't mobilize and retaliate before the end of winter.

Thats a theory propagated by military saying if we lose war again we will use nukes but let civilians suffer the consequences. Where will pakistanis go after nuking India? to afghanistan ? Threatening to commit suicide has its limits.

An American diplomat once said that Pakistan is the only country that comes to the negotiating table holding a gun to its own head.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

you will be singing different tune if Musharaf succeeded. If IA had found no way to recover the peaks after few months, it would have opened new front in punjab.
Had IA opened punjab front, international players would have got involved and it would have been a stalemate(I doubt IA can make much gain in a week or two). The whole kashmir issue would have been in UN, and pak forces/mujahids would be sitting on icy mountains even now.

His plan was quite good.

Indian Army's soldiers took back the peaks with their bravery and sacrifice

General Musharraf's Plan was TACTICALLY Brilliant but STRATEGICALLY Very bad

As Sun Tzu said Tactics without strategy is just Noise before defeat

And if India could not have evicted them then First we would have attacked ACROSS
the LOC --- Not directly into Punjab

Our Strike Corps had NOT been mobilised at all during the Kargil war-- They are meant to cross the International Border