What role could PAF have played in the Kargil war??

[litman]

Not really.

BVR ability doesnt guarantee a win in war. FOB's close to borders and dispersed locations further complicate air warfare. Kashmir is a mountain region and concealment from radars is easier than plains of punjab.

PAF is not a 100% F-16 force, there were 300+ other aircraft in inventory including newer F-7PG and ROSE Mirages, so its ridiculous to think that F-16 lack of spares means PAF cannot fight.

Gen Shahid Aziz was serving at that time in PA and his interviews give a broader picture. Musharraf used mujahideen backed by non-regular forces to keep the skirmish contained in one region. NLI at that time was paramilitary under interior ministry. PAF and PN chiefs were not kept in planning phase, it was a three man PA show.

you must read kaiser tufail blog . the planning was pathetic. as far as spares of F-16s were concerned. yes the issue was serious. there were no F 7 PG in PAF at that time. above all kargil was totally not needed. it was nothing but a misadventure of few jernail. once again poor planning on part of PA . the plannig of PA in 65, 71 and kargil was simply pathetic. it is also true that PA even didn't recognize the dead body of captain sher khan. PA should not malign others for her failures .PAF saved the day for pak in 65 for west pak atleast in 71 and kargil it was kept in dark

 

[Abingdonboy]

Question : When are we getting the remaining Hinds? , bet you will get the Apaches soon enough!

The IAF's Apaches will begin being delivered from September 2018, the Mi-25 fleet will be decommisioned soon after so another 2-3 years and 20+ Hinds (all upgraded) will be ready to be transfered to the ANSF if you guys should so wish.

Soon enough -- As soon as the Russians can make them
We are only financing them -- they will come directly from Russia

The 4 Mi-25s given to the ANSF in late 2015 were directly out of the IAF's inventory, there is no reason the rest of the fleet can't go to the ANSF if they request them.


An ex-IAF Mi-25 in Kabul:

 

[-xXx-]

Kargil conflict was the only time the IAF performed in it's history, only because.
1: It was operating within it's own side of the border.
2: There was no air opposition.
3: The operation was limited to a few hill tops.
4: The location of Indian posts occupied by the Guerilla fighters and NLI was well known to the IAF and IA.
5: Despite having the above knowledge, the Indians were still hapless until US provided them with satellite imagery.
6: After initially failing to hit any targets, the IAF only managed to make some successful strikes after assistance from the Israelis.
7: Since all the fighting was taking place on Indian side of border, there was no question of PAF intervening.
8: The few times IAF ventured over the border, it paid the price.
While Indians keep show boating about MiG-29 locking on the F-16, they even went as far as rewarding the Fulcrum pilot for achieving this from within his own air space, however you seldom hear of such incidents such as where a flight of F-16s trailed a formation of MiG-29s for about 20 minutes, the Indian pilots were completely oblivious of the Falcons trailing them until warned by their GCI, at which the MiG piltos jinxed so violently that they nearly crashed into each other.
PAF never made big deal out of such incidents as both air forces remained within own borders but i guess it's habitual for Indians to start chest thumping on every little detail....probably helps with their moral.

For me under-performing but taking on the chin is more important than not performing at all and let your men in uniform die a mujahideen death with no glory. Even Iraqis gave US a fight until they were turn into rubble.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Kargil conflict was the only time the IAF performed in it's history, only because.
1: It was operating within it's own side of the border.
2: There was no air opposition.
3: The operation was limited to a few hill tops.
4: The location of Indian posts occupied by the Guerilla fighters and NLI was well known to the IAF and IA.
5: Despite having the above knowledge, the Indians were still hapless until US provided them with satellite imagery.
6: After initially failing to hit any targets, the IAF only managed to make some successful strikes after assistance from the Israelis.
7: Since all the fighting was taking place on Indian side of border, there was no question of PAF intervening.
8: The few times IAF ventured over the border, it paid the price.
While Indians keep show boating about MiG-29 locking on the F-16, they even went as far as rewarding the Fulcrum pilot for achieving this from within his own air space, however you seldom hear of such incidents such as where a flight of F-16s trailed a formation of MiG-29s for about 20 minutes, the Indian pilots were completely oblivious of the Falcons trailing them until warned by their GCI, at which the MiG piltos jinxed so violently that they nearly crashed into each other.
PAF never made big deal out of such incidents as both air forces remained within own borders but i guess it's habitual for Indians to start chest thumping on every little detail....probably helps with their moral.

You need an operation, Windy. The internal pressure is beginning to affect you.

man, I am not sure if the people who lived in indus valley were hindus... I mean they were most likely not hindus if you go by history strictly, there is no evidence.
Anyway, you are digressing from what you said, my assertion is nuclear blackmail works upto a point(pakistan's own territorial integrity is not violated) but not when pakistan tries to invade part of any country. Even afgans wont take that sh*t nor will Iranians. Why do you think Indians will do. I mean you really think Indian leadership will say oh they got nukes, tough luck, let them occupy whatever bit they are on, coz even if we nuke all of them they will destroy all hindus. Thats not how our leadership thinks, I am pretty sure you know that.

The original is so badly garbled that there is no point in even attempting an answer. As for the profound thesis propounded, just ignore it. You've given reasons enough. If he is delusional, it doesn't matter. Those who actually have to take these decisions are unlikely to be similarly delusional.

No that wasn't the case; Nawaz Sharif did not even hear of this war or conflict - it was a secret stunt pulled by Musharraf. The Government prevented further reinforcements, Air support and sometimes even supplies.

The government did not prevent any of these, and we have the evidence of the airforce for rejection of the second point from Pakistani sources themselves. Tufail Sahib's account is devastatingly clear; there's not much spin you can put on that. It wasn't government intervention but lack of spares and complete lack of information that handicapped the PAF.

Further reinforcements were quite obviously not possible. If you had even a clue about the type and number of fortified positions on mountain tops, you might have guessed that nothing could be added to the original head-count.

The same applies to supplies.

 

[guest11]

I'm confused. Was that a true story? Or a Presstitute story?

Don't know mate. It was the probably published in early 1990s. India Today group is not exactly known for its professional and moral integrity.

 

[Eminent Mainstream Media]

The aircraft shot down was a MiG21, in a close air support role.

The rest of your post is very accurate.

I think that Mig 21 was there to look out for Nachiketa's Mig 27 which crashed due to engine malfunction-

 

[Joe Shearer]

I think that Mig 21 was there to look out for Nachiketa's Mig 27 which crashed due to engine malfunction-

Quite right! It's good to see how accurately this has been kept in mind. Thank you very much indeed.

 

[Signalian]

you must read kaiser tufail blog . the planning was pathetic. as far as spares of F-16s were concerned. yes the issue was serious. there were no F 7 PG in PAF at that time. above all kargil was totally not needed. it was nothing but a misadventure of few jernail. once again poor planning on part of PA . the plannig of PA in 65, 71 and kargil was simply pathetic. it is also true that PA even didn't recognize the dead body of captain sher khan. PA should not malign others for her failures .PAF saved the day for pak in 65 for west pak atleast in 71 and kargil it was kept in dark

id rather stick with the serving army general words than an online blog. yes F-7PG wasnt there, only F-7 P but then again PAF isnt 100% F-16 force which is the basic point to be conveyed.

You are wrong on all accounts of PA planning, the planning of PA was excellent in all wars which is why Pakistan stands today and IA as a bully has been thwarted all the times. The leadership had issues which made E-Pak lose as BD in 1971.

PA saved Pakistan many a times from IA misadventures especially kicking IA in the face Rann of Kutch in early 1965 , then slapped hard across IA buttocks in the Sialkot sector in 1965, ruined IA generals completely ridiculous plans for tea in gymkhana lahore in 1965.....and the list continues.

PAF showed its might to IAF much more than PA and like i said, Kargil would have been very different had PAF been included in planning phase of Kargil. It was IAF goodluck that PAF wasnt included but its not going to happen again now.

Mate, the truth is that irregulars of PA slammed IA so hard in Kargil that IAF needed to be involved to save IA from a miserable humiliation and if PAF would have showed up, IA would have had the worst cancer of its life, for life.

So if i were you, i would thank my stars that PAF wasnt involved.

 

[litman]

id rather stick with the serving army general words than an online blog. yes F-7PG wasnt there, only F-7 P but then again PAF isnt 100% F-16 force which is the basic point to be conveyed.

You are wrong on all accounts of PA planning, the planning of PA was excellent in all wars which is why Pakistan stands today and IA as a bully has been thwarted all the times. The leadership had issues which made E-Pak lose as BD in 1971.

PA saved Pakistan many a times from IA misadventures especially kicking IA in the face Rann of Kutch in early 1965 , then slapped hard across IA buttocks in the Sialkot sector in 1965, ruined IA generals completely ridiculous plans for tea in gymkhana lahore in 1965.....and the list continues.

PAF showed its might to IAF much more than PA and like i said, Kargil would have been very different had PAF been included in planning phase of Kargil. It was IAF goodluck that PAF wasnt included but its not going to happen again now.
Mate, the truth is that irregulars of PA slammed IA so hard in Kargil that IAF needed to be involved to save IA from a miserable humiliation and if PAF would have showed up, IA would have had the worst cancer of its life, for life.

So if i were you, i would thank my stars that PAF wasnt involved.

do you have any idea how many F-16s PAF had during the kargil conflict? around 34 without any spares. after the initial deployment of the F-16s in kargil due to the shortage of the spares the number of sorties were reduced to a great extent.
PA started the 65 war on 1st sep 65. about 1 division army invaded into kashmir with the mentality that india will not respond and it will be a local war. PAF chief at that time advised ayub khan not to do this misadventure as it will lead to a full scale war but ayub was blinded by his foriegn minister bhutto. after shastri announced that we will open a war zone of our own choice the PA was totally not ready for this.that's why they call lahore attack a surprise. i think they were waiting for a letter from delhi that we are attacking lahore stop us if you can. in the book "battle for pakistan" the author John fricker has mentioned that PAF was the only force fully ready to fight a full scale war. the indian planning of opening the international border till thar desert worked and PA failed to make any significant dent in the enemy forces. according to some sources we lost more territory . PAF was victorious and it was a draw on ground. the operation grand slam was halted at a crucial phase due to selfish mentality of the army hierarchy.
in 71 who was the leader of the pakistan. yahya khan who was notorious for his character qualities. mujeeb ur rahman and bhutto did their best to break up pakistan but the leadership was of army and we made history. india only set the stage for war and it was yahya khan to start the war. PAF at least inflicted more damage to IAF and had 3 to 1 kill ratio against the IAF.
now come to kargil. another example of poor planning by PA. a useless conflict that could have been easily avoided. the most amazing thing was that the PA ( which never won a war before) thought they could win at their own without informing paf and pn. no doubt the PA achieved surprise over the indians but when the india responded PA had no where to go. we were humiliated internationally even china did not supported us. no one has ever been able to answer a simple question. what was the bloody need of the kargil war? before going for war aims are set. what we want to achieve ? how we will achieve? what are our reserves? what are our capabilities? what is the economic status of our country? will our economy sustain a war? will we be able to stop the blockage of karachi port in war? none of these questions were taken into consideration during the kargil conflict. so we gained nothing at all from kargil and it was pure non sense.
on this website people like to portray PA as bunch of angles and put all the blames on politicians. but we should be neutral in our assessment. politicians have done a lot of damage but we should give the "credit of damage" to everyone where it is due.

id rather stick with the serving army general words than an online blog. .

that blog is written by air commodore R kaiser tufail. one of the most famous PAF F-16 pilot who played major role in the development, evaluation, induction of the F-7 PG into PAF. he is definitely the authority regarding the PAF's operations in kargil.

 

[SecularNationalist]

PAF would have beated the shit out of those dark vegan buttholes

 

[ravi gupta]

id rather stick with the serving army general words than an online blog. yes F-7PG wasnt there, only F-7 P but then again PAF isnt 100% F-16 force which is the basic point to be conveyed.

You are wrong on all accounts of PA planning, the planning of PA was excellent in all wars which is why Pakistan stands today and IA as a bully has been thwarted all the times. The leadership had issues which made E-Pak lose as BD in 1971.

PA saved Pakistan many a times from IA misadventures especially kicking IA in the face Rann of Kutch in early 1965 , then slapped hard across IA buttocks in the Sialkot sector in 1965, ruined IA generals completely ridiculous plans for tea in gymkhana lahore in 1965.....and the list continues.

PAF showed its might to IAF much more than PA and like i said, Kargil would have been very different had PAF been included in planning phase of Kargil. It was IAF goodluck that PAF wasnt included but its not going to happen again now.

Mate, the truth is that irregulars of PA slammed IA so hard in Kargil that IAF needed to be involved to save IA from a miserable humiliation and if PAF would have showed up, IA would have had the worst cancer of its life, for life.

So if i were you, i would thank my stars that PAF wasnt involved.

Then can you give me the reason why PAF was hiding when IAF was pounding bombs to helpless NLI infantry.
And if you are giving a past example i would like to quote only one example i.e Siachin.

PAF would have beated the shit out of those dark vegan buttholes

Yes naaa,if they participated i dont know what scare them,that they where hiding.

 

[Joe Shearer]

id rather stick with the serving army general words than an online blog. yes F-7PG wasnt there, only F-7 P but then again PAF isnt 100% F-16 force which is the basic point to be conveyed.

You are wrong on all accounts of PA planning, the planning of PA was excellent in all wars (1) which is why Pakistan stands today and IA as a bully has been thwarted all the times. The leadership had issues which made E-Pak lose as BD in 1971.

PA saved Pakistan many a times from IA misadventures especially kicking IA in the face Rann of Kutch in early 1965 , then slapped hard across IA buttocks in the Sialkot sector in 1965, ruined IA generals completely ridiculous plans for tea in gymkhana lahore in 1965.....and the list continues.

PAF showed its might to IAF much more than PA and like i said, Kargil would have been very different had PAF been included in planning phase of Kargil. It was IAF goodluck that PAF wasnt included but its not going to happen again now.

Mate, the truth is that irregulars of PA slammed IA so hard in Kargil that IAF needed to be involved to save IA from a miserable humiliation and if PAF would have showed up, IA would have had the worst cancer of its life, for life.

So if i were you, i would thank my stars that PAF wasnt involved.

If we exclude the fanboy enthusiasm, there is only a set of bellicose statements, no analysis, no figures, nothing.

1. In which one in particular? It did not plan for 47-48; if it did plan, there was nothing much to show for it. The Army's place-holders, the Gilgit Scouts under Major Brown, massacred the local Dogra and Sikh soldiers of the Maharaja, and swept through Baltistan, taking first Skardu and then Kargil, finally besieging Leh. Zero involvement of the Pakistan Army. These marauders beat hasty retreats when confronted by the regular Indian Army.
   Where the Pakistan Army did get involved, it did not exactly cover itself with glory. Poonch was recovered, the present shape and location of the border took shape, and it has not been disturbed since, except to take possession of the Siachen Glacier locations.
2. You mentioned the Rann of Kutch incident. Presumably you are already aware that the Pakistan Army faced only border police, who were
3. If you don't mind my pointing out the events of 1965 do not really point to much by way of planning. The disastrous insertion of special forces detachments and their slaughter, the subsequent decision to open up another front in Jammu, which was very well planned at divisional level, and which planning was completely undone by a lunatic change of leadership in mid-battle, neither of these shows much by way of planning.
4. Perhaps you are talking of the subsequent hostilities, across the international border. Good planning does not presumably include allowing your officers to go on leave days before an anticipated attack. Yet that is what happened. It sounds singularly stupid to tell us about the excellent planning that resulted in this debacle. As for the fighting, while the Gadag Gallop showed us that both sets of superior commanders were equally stupid, the massive defeat at Asal Uttar should have lodged even in the inflamed recesses of a fanboy 'mind'. But presumably that defeat was also carefully planned.
5. If there is any other outbreak of fighting that you wish to talk about, do speak up.

PAF would have beated the shit out of those dark vegan buttholes

Perhaps. Perhaps not. Perhaps those dark vegan buttholes riveted their gaze and their attention until it was too late.

 

[-xXx-]

PAF would have beated the shit out of those dark vegan buttholes

If they would have, they would have.

Actually they couldn't, that's why they didn't. They did what 90K did on other day, save their own life and equipment.

 

[barbarosa]

Pak army fell down 1 Mig 21near the border. PAF was silent because of old fighters in it except F16.

 

[Windjammer]

You need an operation, Windy. The internal pressure is beginning to affect you.

So what are you now, a doctor..... did the frivolous attitude take a hit on the teaching.
Rather than habitual cheap shots, why not make an effort to counter an argument.

So in reality who are those Mens? PAK disowned those mens and called them terrorist.

A) If so many men's came from PAK without being detected by PAK army, then PAK is aka terrorist supportive state?
B) Why those mens get back in PAK and got rewards?
C) Why PAK send its PM to US to neogiate face saving surrender?

D) Did you know your All Fuel supply was blocked from Sea and you only One week of Fuel left after that , your Army real defeat would have came public.

F) Why PAK amy taken some of its soilders body?

G) Why PAK ARMY hiding the report? saving itself from humiliation?

India was under pressure not to start full scare war, even PAK was so worried, US call SOS to india to stop when indian Strike team move in PAK and close to border.

India humiliated PAK diplomatically , even China ( deeper then ocean and Higher then mountain Friend) refused to take side of PAK in kargil.

So in reality who are those Mens? PAK disowned those mens and called them terrorist.

A) If so many men's came from PAK without being detected by PAK army, then PAK is aka terrorist supportive state?
B) Why those mens get back in PAK and got rewards?
C) Why PAK send its PM to US to neogiate face saving surrender?

D) Did you know your All Fuel supply was blocked from Sea and you only One week of Fuel left after that , your Army real defeat would have came public.

F) Why PAK amy taken some of its soilders body?

G) Why PAK ARMY hiding the report? saving itself from humiliation?

India was under pressure not to start full scare war, even PAK was so worried, US call SOS to india to stop when indian Strike team move in PAK and close to border.

India humiliated PAK diplomatically , even China ( deeper then ocean and Higher then mountain Friend) refused to take side of PAK in kargil.

Must you waste space for the sake of it. Look at the title of the thread and look at you trying hard.

For me under-performing but taking on the chin is more important than not performing at all and let your men in uniform die a mujahideen death with no glory. Even Iraqis gave US a fight until they were turn into rubble.

Why run to Iraq, a little closer to home in 2002 was an ideal opportunity to prove that point.