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What role could PAF have played in the Kargil war??

Musharaf was seriously a dumb*** to go ahead with the plan, without informing the civilian govt. PAF chief , PN chief etc etc, in any other country he'd have got court martialed except for Pakistan where he became the President of the country soon after war (where he was solely responsible for putting the lives of Pak soldiers on the line for basically nothing)..


I think if Kargil was to happen, it should've been years ago prolly in the Zia era (when Siachin dispute was hot) with proper planning and tactics involving all units .

First of all it was a covert war....and to claim the PM and some of his close advisers were not informed is an outright LIE to begin with. Nawaz Sharif is just a coward who capitulated.

With regards to Siachen, what happened - it is what it is.....1999 was a good payback. The indians tried desperately to regain the highest peak overlooking Sri Nagar - Leh highway and they failed. The NLI/faujis held the positions valiantly and they still do to this day...and that too with limited ammunition and no air cover.

It's pointless discussing the "what ifs".....at the time we were under heavy sanctions and had no JF-17 Thunder at that time (was a work in progress). The enemy still had a shortage of coffins for its deads
 
So what are you now, a doctor..... did the frivolous attitude take a hit on the teaching.
Rather than habitual cheap shots, why not make an effort to counter an argument.*






:blah: :blah: :blah:
Must you waste space for the sake of it. Look at the title of the thread and look at you trying hard.


Why run to Iraq, a little closer to home in 2002 was an ideal opportunity to prove that point.

* That's too boring, when you are the one who has made the argument. :enjoy:

Add on to your comments so far - the Mi 17 which was shot down was being fitted with IR countermeasures (Indian Mi-17s were under process of upgradation of Flare Conter measures from Israel in that time) and was pulled in at the last minute as the heli which was to go in the original flight was pulled out due to technical snag.

Due to the pressing requirement of close in air support due to an impending attack by own forces, the decision was taken by Flt Lt Muhilan and Sqn Ldr Pundhir to take the heli bereft of the counter measures and they planned to ensure that the flight of 4 helis went as scheduled for support of the attacking troops.

They had planned for remaining in cover of the remaining three helis which were equipped with the flare counter measures .... but due to the salvos of MANPADs streaming at them and the evasive measures by the advance helis, there was a gap created wherein this heli got exposed

And the rest ---- as it is said, is history!!!

Excellent narration. Many thanks.
 
So You believe the kargil was a victory.....

If Ns knew this (as per you) was he also involved in the back stabbing, especially after receiving vajpayee I wagah?

First of all it was a covert war....and to claim the PM and some of his close advisers were not informed is an outright LIE to begin with. Nawaz Sharif is just a coward who capitulated.

With regards to Siachen, what happened - it is what it is.....1999 was a good payback. The indians tried desperately to regain the highest peak overlooking Sri Nagar - Leh highway and they failed. The NLI/faujis held the positions valiantly and they still do to this day...and that too with limited ammunition and no air cover.

It's pointless discussing the "what ifs".....at the time we were under heavy sanctions and had no JF-17 Thunder at that time (was a work in progress). The enemy still had a shortage of coffins for its deads
 
Why run to Iraq, a little closer to home in 2002 was an ideal opportunity to prove that point.

Tell me ever in history any airforce remain grounded when their own armymen were lynched left and right by enemy airforce?

Your guess is as good as mine. :lol:
 
Tell me ever in history any airforce remain grounded when their own armymen were lynched left and right by enemy airforce?

Your guess is as good as mine. :lol:
Just Look up at the 2002 stand off to enlighten your self....you will get your answer, nearly a thousand Indian soldiers killed for pussyfooting on the border for a whole year .....without moving an inch.
 
loads of BS as usual.

Anyways the first point to understand is that planning is different from implementation. Resources, timing, training, weather, change in events etc are other factors that can weigh in. When we get this basic point straight, we can move ahead, till then you are just wasting my time.

Precisely those elements most lacking in Pakistani military matters. As Kaisar Tufail's essay, as Nur Khan's frequent melancholy analyses on TV, as Agha Amin's writings all point out.

Just Look up at the 2002 stand off to enlighten your self....you will get your answer, nearly a thousand Indian soldiers killed for pussyfooting on the border for a whole year .....without moving an inch.

The IAF was grounded? Or was there a war and only you got invited?

..and who are these independent Pakistani sources. Most of Pakistani post were manned by 6 to 22 troops, Whereas Indian were attacking with 200 to 600 troops. Indians were charging up hill, for Pakistanis it was a duck shoot until either their weapon get jammed or they run out of ammo.

Or ran out of food, or got in the way of a laser bomb, or was blown up while trying to reach ammo and food to their comrades, or while turning away from such a futile effort. War is hell.
 
The IAF was grounded? Or was there a war and only you got invited?

Neither was PAF grounded during the Kargil conflict.... and did the IA mobilise almost a million troops just to see if their own mines were working.
 
Neither was PAF grounded during the Kargil conflict.... and did the IA mobilise almost a million troops just to see if their own mines were working.

Yes, but your troops were fighting a (losing) war at Kargil; our troops didn't fire a shot in anger, nor was one fired at them. So where is the comparison, except in how hard you blew on either occasion? :azn:
 
Yes, but your troops were fighting a (losing) war at Kargil; our troops didn't fire a shot in anger, nor was one fired at them. So where is the comparison, except in how hard you blew on either occasion? :azn:

My dear Teacher aka doctor aka historian in oblivion.

Casualties[edit]
The standoff inflicted heavy casualties. The total Indian casualties were 789–1,874 killed. Many accidents during the mobilisation were due to the poor quality of mines and fuses[2][3] Around 100 of these fatalities were from mine laying operations. Artillery duels with Pakistan, vehicle accidents, and other incidents make up the rest.[2]

Cost of standoff[edit]
The Indian cost for the buildup was ₹216 billion (US$3.2 billion) while Pakistan's was $1.4 billion.[26]

BTW, our troops weren't exactly fighting a losing war until Mr Vajpaye wrote to Bill Clinton, who in turn put Nawaz Sharif under pressure and the clay footed politician buckled under the episode.
 
@Abu Zolfiqar

In your imaginary world??? Stop spreading fiction and lies. 2 Migs shot down indeed! Mig 21 was and Mi 17 that's it!

And for your claims ..... You vacated the fresh positions you had taken as also some peaks which we did not have since BSF lost them in 1983-85 period.

The only place you still have some hold across LC or CFL is opposite Machchal that too a single ridge which can be assaulted easily.

BTW, our troops weren't exactly fighting a losing war until Mr Vajpaye wrote to Bill Clinton, who in turn put Nawaz Sharif under pressure and the clay footed politician buckled under the episode.

And war is indeed an extension of the foreign policy ... aka means of forcing your will upon the other when diplomacy fails.

Granted there were casualties almost to the tune of a thousand in the entire duration ..... but when a force of 700000+ was mobilized and deployed the figure was miniscule.

We got the political objective - you will have to grant that. Rest is immaterial. The price we paid was hardly a decimal percentage to the potential of an all out war to achieve the same results.

I somehow was under the impression you tend to troll only when some one fingers you and usually are quite coherent in your posts .. but here am mildly surprised. Your figures of expenditure for example - the economic difference between the two nations translated into higher costs for Pakistan proportionally and it was at a time when Pakistan was reeling from effects of sanctions. India too was under impact but the economy was indeed doing pretty well for a sanction hit case and the costs were not of consequence.

Yes, you guys achieved the spectacular aim of sabotaging three main ordnance depots at crucial time .. Other wise the story may just have been different and we would indeed have been rolling across IB on the morning of 24 May.
 
My dear Teacher aka doctor aka historian in oblivion.

Casualties[edit]
The standoff inflicted heavy casualties. The total Indian casualties were 789–1,874 killed. Many accidents during the mobilisation were due to the poor quality of mines and fuses[2][3] Around 100 of these fatalities were from mine laying operations. Artillery duels with Pakistan, vehicle accidents, and other incidents make up the rest.[2]

Cost of standoff[edit]
The Indian cost for the buildup was ₹216 billion (US$3.2 billion) while Pakistan's was $1.4 billion.[26]

BTW, our troops weren't exactly fighting a losing war until Mr Vajpaye wrote to Bill Clinton, who in turn put Nawaz Sharif under pressure and the clay footed politician buckled under the episode.

Making up stories again, Windy? Everyone, including your own authorities, at all levels, political as well as military, have told us from the rooftops that it was your MNS who was shown the awful prospect of defeat, rather than the comfortable victory that he had been told to expect, and started looking for a way out.

Since you have probably never read the book (it was after all not published by ISPR), here is an advance review which might - might - help you grasp the situation as it then was:

quote
In a book to be published this week, former US Deputy Secretary of State Strobe Talbott tells the story of President Bill Clinton’s personal diplomacy in averting a possible nuclear war in South Asia. The conflict began in May 1999, when Pakistani commandos infiltrated the Indian part of Kashmir in the Kargil region. By the end of June, a furious Indian response with air and artillery assaults threatened to overwhelm Pakistan. Intelligence reports suggested that a cornered Pakistan might turn to the ultimate: nuclear weapons, which both India and Pakistan had tested in 1998. On July 4, 1999, while the US celebrated its Independence Day, an alarmed Clinton and his national security aides went to an unannounced meeting with Pakistan’s Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif – a meeting that US national security adviser Sandy Berger said could be “the single most important meeting with a foreign leader of his entire presidency.” The following story about that momentous day is adapted from Talbott's “Engaging India: Diplomacy, Democracy and the Bomb” (Brookings Institution Press). – YaleGlobal.

unquote

Not my wording, Windus. And not from an Indian publication: your reaction in such a case is quite predictable. Here is the source:

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/day-nuclear-conflict-was-averted

The rest of the extract:


quote

In letters to Nawaz Sharif and Vajpayee, the president went beyond the studied neutrality that both prime ministers were expecting....
Clinton made Pakistan’s withdrawal a precondition for a settlement and the price it must pay for the U.S. diplomatic involvement it had long sought. Clinton followed up with phone calls to the two leaders in mid-June emphasizing this point.

The United States condemned Pakistan’s “infiltration of armed intruders” and went public with information that most of the seven hundred men who had crossed the Line of Control were attached to the Pakistani Army’s 10th Corps.

4502.jpg


In late June Clinton called Nawaz Sharif to stress that the United States saw Pakistan as the aggressor and to reject the fiction that the fighters were separatist guerrillas. The administration let it be known that if Sharif did not order a pullback, we would hold up a $100 million International Monetary Fund loan that Pakistan sorely needed. Sharif went to Beijing, hoping for comfort from Pakistan’s staunchest friend, but got none.

Pakistan was almost universally seen to have precipitated the crisis, ruining the promising peace process that had begun in Lahore and inviting an Indian counteroffensive.

On Friday, July 2, Sharif phoned Clinton and pleaded for his personal intervention in South Asia. Clinton replied that he would consider it only if it was understood up-front that Pakistani withdrawal would have to be immediate and unconditional.

4503.jpg


The next day Sharif called Clinton to say that he was packing his bags and getting ready to fly immediately to Washington—never mind that he had not been invited. ..He warned Sharif not to come unless he was prepared to announce unconditional withdrawal; otherwise, his trip would make a bad situation worse. The Pakistani leader did not accept Clinton’s condition for the meeting—he just said he was on his way.

“This guy’s coming literally on a wing and a prayer,” said the president.” That’s right,” said Bruce Riedel [NSC aide], “and he’s praying that we don’t make him do the one thing he’s got to do to end this thing.”

It was not hard to anticipate what Sharif would ask for. His opening proposal would be a cease-fire to be followed by negotiations under American auspices. His fallback would make Pakistani withdrawal conditional on Indian agreement to direct negotiations sponsored and probably mediated by the United States. Either way, he would be able to claim that the incursion had forced India, under American pressure, to accept Pakistani terms.

After several long meetings in Sandy Berger’s office, we decided to recommend that Clinton confront Sharif with a stark choice that included neither of his preferred options. We would put before him two press statements and let Sharif decide which would be released at the end of the Blair House talks. The first would hail him as a peacemaker for retreating—or, as we would put it euphemistically, “restoring and respecting the sanctity of the Line of Control.” The second would blame him for starting the crisis and for the escalation sure to follow his failed mission to Washington.

On the eve of Sharif’s arrival, we learned that Pakistan might be preparing its nuclear forces for deployment. There was, among those of us preparing for the meeting, a sense of vast and nearly unprecedented peril. When Clinton assembled his advisers in the Oval Office for a last minute huddle, Sandy told him that overnight we had gotten more disturbing reports of steps Pakistan was taking with its nuclear arsenal. Clinton said he would like to use this information “to scare the hell out of Sharif.”

4504.jpg


Sandy told the president that he was heading into what would probably be the single most important meeting with a foreign leader of his entire presidency. It would also be one of the most delicate. The overriding objective was to induce Pakistani withdrawal. But another, probably incompatible, goal was to increase the chances of Sharif’s political survival. “If he arrives as a prime minister but stays as an exile,” said Sandy, “he’s not going to be able to make stick whatever deal you get out of him.” We had to find a way to provide Sharif just enough cover to go home and give the necessary orders to Musharraf and the military.

The conversation had already convinced Clinton of what he feared: the world was closer even than during the Cuban missile crisis to a nuclear war. Unlike Kennedy and Khrushchev in 1962, Vajpayee and Sharif did not realize how close they were to the brink, so there was an even greater risk that they would blindly stumble across it.

Adding to the danger was evidence that Sharif neither knew everything his military high command was doing nor had complete control over it. When Clinton asked him if he understood how far along his military was in preparing nuclear-armed missiles for possible use in a war against India, Sharif acted as though he was genuinely surprised. He could believe that the Indians were taking such steps, he said, but he neither acknowledged nor seemed aware of anything like that on his own side.

Clinton decided to invoke the Cuban missile crisis, noting that it had been a formative experience for him (he was sixteen at the time). Now India and Pakistan were similarly on the edge of a precipice. If even one bomb were used…Sharif finished the sentence: “. . . it would be a catastrophe.”

[Clinton] returned to the offensive. He could see they were getting nowhere. Fearing that might be the result, he had a statement ready to release to the press in time for the evening news shows that would lay all the blame for the crisis on Pakistan.

Sharif went ashen.

4505.jpg


Clinton bore down harder. Having listened to Sharif’s complaints against the United States, he had a list of his own, and it started with terrorism. Pakistan was the principal sponsor of the Taliban, which in turn allowed Osama bin Laden to run his worldwide network out of Afghanistan. Clinton had asked Sharif repeatedly to cooperate in bringing Osama to justice. Sharif had promised to do so but failed to deliver. The statement the United States would make to the press would mention Pakistan’s role in supporting terrorism in Afghanistan—and, through its backing of Kashmiri militants, in India as well. Was that what Sharif wanted?

Clinton had worked himself back into real anger—his face flushed, eyes narrowed, lips pursed, cheek muscles pulsing, fists clenched. He said it was crazy enough for Sharif to have let his military violate the Line of Control, start a border war with India, and now prepare nuclear forces for action. On top of that, he had put Clinton in the middle of the mess and set him up for a diplomatic failure.

Sharif seemed beaten, physically and emotionally. He denied he had given any orders with regard to nuclear weaponry and said he was worried for his life.

When the two leaders had been at it for an hour and a half, Clinton suggested a break so that both could consult with their teams. The president and Bruce briefed Sandy, Rick, and me on what had happened. Now that he had made maximum use of the “bad statement” we had prepared in advance, Clinton said, it was time to deploy the good one. ..Clinton took a cat nap on a sofa in a small study off the main entryway while Bruce, Sandy, Rick, and I cobbled together a new version of the “good statement,” incorporating some of the Pakistani language from the paper that Sharif had claimed was in play between him and Vajpayee. But the key sentence in the new document was ours, not his, and it would nail the one thing we had to get out of the talks: “The prime minister has agreed to take concrete and immediate steps for the restoration of the Line of Control.” The paper called for a cease-fire but only after the Pakistanis were back on their side of the line. It reaffirmed Clinton’s longstanding plan to visit South Asia.

The meeting came quickly to a happy and friendly end, at least on Clinton’s part.

unquote

WHICH part of this sounds like Vajpayee appealing to the US for a bail-out, Windus? Or was this doctored by R&W?
 
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Just Look up at the 2002 stand off to enlighten your self....you will get your answer, nearly a thousand Indian soldiers killed for pussyfooting on the border for a whole year .....without moving an inch.
That is because your ill informed, the casualty numbers are attributed to cross border shelling, counter terror ops and mine clearance. and please do not lecture us about fighting, it sounds rather callous coming from nation with track record of the largest unilateral surrender since wwII.
 
@Abu Zolfiqar

In your imaginary world??? Stop spreading fiction and lies. 2 Migs shot down indeed! Mig 21 was and Mi 17 that's it!

And for your claims ..... You vacated the fresh positions you had taken as also some peaks which we did not have since BSF lost them in 1983-85 period.

The only place you still have some hold across LC or CFL is opposite Machchal that too a single ridge which can be assaulted easily.



And war is indeed an extension of the foreign policy ... aka means of forcing your will upon the other when diplomacy fails.

Granted there were casualties almost to the tune of a thousand in the entire duration ..... but when a force of 700000+ was mobilized and deployed the figure was miniscule.

We got the political objective - you will have to grant that. Rest is immaterial. The price we paid was hardly a decimal percentage to the potential of an all out war to achieve the same results.

I somehow was under the impression you tend to troll only when some one fingers you and usually are quite coherent in your posts .. but here am mildly surprised. Your figures of expenditure for example - the economic difference between the two nations translated into higher costs for Pakistan proportionally and it was at a time when Pakistan was reeling from effects of sanctions. India too was under impact but the economy was indeed doing pretty well for a sanction hit case and the costs were not of consequence.

Yes, you guys achieved the spectacular aim of sabotaging three main ordnance depots at crucial time .. Other wise the story may just have been different and we would indeed have been rolling across IB on the morning of 24 May.

Windus tends to get hysterical if questioned too closely; the only way he can handle it is if people give him a knowing grin and move on to something else, ignoring his chest-thumping.

The most interesting thing is that their planners still haven't got it that in a stand-off, or any situation of attrition, they cannot withstand the losses; we can. Their $1.4 billion was a body-blow; our $3.2 billion was a hard punch, effectively absorbed. If India was not a strategically conservative power, it need only have bought enough ammunition for a year's cross-border artillery interdiction, and their military stamina (or lack of it) would take care of the rest.

That is because your ill informed, the casualty numbers are attributed to cross border shelling, counter terror ops and mine clearance. and please do not lecture us about fighting, it sounds rather callous coming from nation with track record of the largest unilateral surrender since wwII.

LOL.

He doesn't want to be well-informed. The facts don't suit him.

2 indian Migs were shot down - 1 over AZAD Kashmir which had intruded

Neither part of your statement is true.

One Indian MiG was shot down. There was no overflight of Azad Kashmir at any time.

One more for your weekend reading, W:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970203658504574191842820382548

My dear Teacher aka doctor aka historian in oblivion.

Casualties[edit]
The standoff inflicted heavy casualties. The total Indian casualties were 789–1,874 killed. Many accidents during the mobilisation were due to the poor quality of mines and fuses[2][3] Around 100 of these fatalities were from mine laying operations. Artillery duels with Pakistan, vehicle accidents, and other incidents make up the rest.[2]

Cost of standoff[edit]
The Indian cost for the buildup was ₹216 billion (US$3.2 billion) while Pakistan's was $1.4 billion.[26]

BTW, our troops weren't exactly fighting a losing war until Mr Vajpaye wrote to Bill Clinton, who in turn put Nawaz Sharif under pressure and the clay footed politician buckled under the episode.


Oh, BTW, the Pakistani soldiers, thanks to divine intervention, were in positions in thin air twenty feet above the ground. So they received no casualties. None that ISPR mentioned, so they did not happen.

Other 'facts': the infiltrators at Kargil were all Mujahideen. They were Mujahideen with a few para-military troops. They were paramilitary troops, but not regular army. They could not be army, they won no medals. Oh, the Indian reference? Well, if somebody wants to be bloody minded and report OUR soldiers for gallantry, we need to do something or look completely silly. That's why the decorations.
 
Lol like JF17 could have made a difference. Thank God JF17 was not there at that time else we would have lost Kargil

The JF17 would have made a difference.

The PAF would have used this unrecognised aircraft type to flatten GHQ and blame the Indians.

You newbies. You don't understand how war and peace is done, do you?

On a serious note, the PAF commentary makes it clear that only F16s were capable of standing off the IAF.
 

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