What's new

What role could PAF have played in the Kargil war??

The JF17 would have made a difference.

The PAF would have used this unrecognised aircraft type to flatten GHQ and blame the Indians.

You newbies. You don't understand how war and peace is done, do you?

On a serious note, the PAF commentary makes it clear that only F16s were capable of standing off the IAF.

IAF too did nt have Su 30 MKI in 1999

We had started inducting them but they were Not fully operational

PS: He is an Indian who was replying to a Think Tank member who said that there was
no JF 17 available in 1999
 
.
IAF too did nt have Su 30 MKI in 1999

We had started inducting them but they were Not fully operational

PS: He is an Indian who was replying to a Think Tank member who said that there was
no JF 17 in 1999

I know, you f**l. That was a joke.

People without a sense of humour go up my nose.

And there were Su 30 MKI aircraft, but they were trainers.
 
. .
Not sure PAF could have helped over Kargil which I think was outside pak airspace.

in 1999 the best plane in south asia was the mig29 and mirage2000.

today paf falcons can chaalenge the indian bvr fighters no issue but in 1999 no chance
 
. .
Not sure PAF could have helped over Kargil which I think was outside pak airspace.

in 1999 the best plane in south asia was the mig29 and mirage2000.

today paf falcons can chaalenge the indian bvr fighters no issue but in 1999 no chance

Unless people here think that PAF could have supported the PA across LOC in Indian airspace which would have led to full scale war.
 
.
If Mushraff had took airforce and navy into confidence and share the plan before executing it, some top brass on those branches should have kn9ck some sense into his head about how ill equipped they are and the how foolish the plan was..

Making up stories again, Windy? Everyone, including your own authorities, at all levels, political as well as military, have told us from the rooftops that it was your MNS who was shown the awful prospect of defeat, rather than the comfortable victory that he had been told to expect, and started looking for a way out.

Since you have probably never read the book (it was after all not published by ISPR), here is an advance review which might - might - help you grasp the situation as it then was:

quote
In a book to be published this week, former US Deputy Secretary of State Strobe Talbott tells the story of President Bill Clinton’s personal diplomacy in averting a possible nuclear war in South Asia. The conflict began in May 1999, when Pakistani commandos infiltrated the Indian part of Kashmir in the Kargil region. By the end of June, a furious Indian response with air and artillery assaults threatened to overwhelm Pakistan. Intelligence reports suggested that a cornered Pakistan might turn to the ultimate: nuclear weapons, which both India and Pakistan had tested in 1998. On July 4, 1999, while the US celebrated its Independence Day, an alarmed Clinton and his national security aides went to an unannounced meeting with Pakistan’s Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif – a meeting that US national security adviser Sandy Berger said could be “the single most important meeting with a foreign leader of his entire presidency.” The following story about that momentous day is adapted from Talbott's “Engaging India: Diplomacy, Democracy and the Bomb” (Brookings Institution Press). – YaleGlobal.

unquote

Not my wording, Windus. And not from an Indian publication: your reaction in such a case is quite predictable. Here is the source:

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/day-nuclear-conflict-was-averted

The rest of the extract:


quote

In letters to Nawaz Sharif and Vajpayee, the president went beyond the studied neutrality that both prime ministers were expecting....
Clinton made Pakistan’s withdrawal a precondition for a settlement and the price it must pay for the U.S. diplomatic involvement it had long sought. Clinton followed up with phone calls to the two leaders in mid-June emphasizing this point.

The United States condemned Pakistan’s “infiltration of armed intruders” and went public with information that most of the seven hundred men who had crossed the Line of Control were attached to the Pakistani Army’s 10th Corps.

4502.jpg


In late June Clinton called Nawaz Sharif to stress that the United States saw Pakistan as the aggressor and to reject the fiction that the fighters were separatist guerrillas. The administration let it be known that if Sharif did not order a pullback, we would hold up a $100 million International Monetary Fund loan that Pakistan sorely needed. Sharif went to Beijing, hoping for comfort from Pakistan’s staunchest friend, but got none.

Pakistan was almost universally seen to have precipitated the crisis, ruining the promising peace process that had begun in Lahore and inviting an Indian counteroffensive.

On Friday, July 2, Sharif phoned Clinton and pleaded for his personal intervention in South Asia. Clinton replied that he would consider it only if it was understood up-front that Pakistani withdrawal would have to be immediate and unconditional.

4503.jpg


The next day Sharif called Clinton to say that he was packing his bags and getting ready to fly immediately to Washington—never mind that he had not been invited. ..He warned Sharif not to come unless he was prepared to announce unconditional withdrawal; otherwise, his trip would make a bad situation worse. The Pakistani leader did not accept Clinton’s condition for the meeting—he just said he was on his way.

“This guy’s coming literally on a wing and a prayer,” said the president.” That’s right,” said Bruce Riedel [NSC aide], “and he’s praying that we don’t make him do the one thing he’s got to do to end this thing.”

It was not hard to anticipate what Sharif would ask for. His opening proposal would be a cease-fire to be followed by negotiations under American auspices. His fallback would make Pakistani withdrawal conditional on Indian agreement to direct negotiations sponsored and probably mediated by the United States. Either way, he would be able to claim that the incursion had forced India, under American pressure, to accept Pakistani terms.

After several long meetings in Sandy Berger’s office, we decided to recommend that Clinton confront Sharif with a stark choice that included neither of his preferred options. We would put before him two press statements and let Sharif decide which would be released at the end of the Blair House talks. The first would hail him as a peacemaker for retreating—or, as we would put it euphemistically, “restoring and respecting the sanctity of the Line of Control.” The second would blame him for starting the crisis and for the escalation sure to follow his failed mission to Washington.

On the eve of Sharif’s arrival, we learned that Pakistan might be preparing its nuclear forces for deployment. There was, among those of us preparing for the meeting, a sense of vast and nearly unprecedented peril. When Clinton assembled his advisers in the Oval Office for a last minute huddle, Sandy told him that overnight we had gotten more disturbing reports of steps Pakistan was taking with its nuclear arsenal. Clinton said he would like to use this information “to scare the hell out of Sharif.”

4504.jpg


Sandy told the president that he was heading into what would probably be the single most important meeting with a foreign leader of his entire presidency. It would also be one of the most delicate. The overriding objective was to induce Pakistani withdrawal. But another, probably incompatible, goal was to increase the chances of Sharif’s political survival. “If he arrives as a prime minister but stays as an exile,” said Sandy, “he’s not going to be able to make stick whatever deal you get out of him.” We had to find a way to provide Sharif just enough cover to go home and give the necessary orders to Musharraf and the military.

The conversation had already convinced Clinton of what he feared: the world was closer even than during the Cuban missile crisis to a nuclear war. Unlike Kennedy and Khrushchev in 1962, Vajpayee and Sharif did not realize how close they were to the brink, so there was an even greater risk that they would blindly stumble across it.

Adding to the danger was evidence that Sharif neither knew everything his military high command was doing nor had complete control over it. When Clinton asked him if he understood how far along his military was in preparing nuclear-armed missiles for possible use in a war against India, Sharif acted as though he was genuinely surprised. He could believe that the Indians were taking such steps, he said, but he neither acknowledged nor seemed aware of anything like that on his own side.

Clinton decided to invoke the Cuban missile crisis, noting that it had been a formative experience for him (he was sixteen at the time). Now India and Pakistan were similarly on the edge of a precipice. If even one bomb were used…Sharif finished the sentence: “. . . it would be a catastrophe.”

[Clinton] returned to the offensive. He could see they were getting nowhere. Fearing that might be the result, he had a statement ready to release to the press in time for the evening news shows that would lay all the blame for the crisis on Pakistan.

Sharif went ashen.

4505.jpg


Clinton bore down harder. Having listened to Sharif’s complaints against the United States, he had a list of his own, and it started with terrorism. Pakistan was the principal sponsor of the Taliban, which in turn allowed Osama bin Laden to run his worldwide network out of Afghanistan. Clinton had asked Sharif repeatedly to cooperate in bringing Osama to justice. Sharif had promised to do so but failed to deliver. The statement the United States would make to the press would mention Pakistan’s role in supporting terrorism in Afghanistan—and, through its backing of Kashmiri militants, in India as well. Was that what Sharif wanted?

Clinton had worked himself back into real anger—his face flushed, eyes narrowed, lips pursed, cheek muscles pulsing, fists clenched. He said it was crazy enough for Sharif to have let his military violate the Line of Control, start a border war with India, and now prepare nuclear forces for action. On top of that, he had put Clinton in the middle of the mess and set him up for a diplomatic failure.

Sharif seemed beaten, physically and emotionally. He denied he had given any orders with regard to nuclear weaponry and said he was worried for his life.

When the two leaders had been at it for an hour and a half, Clinton suggested a break so that both could consult with their teams. The president and Bruce briefed Sandy, Rick, and me on what had happened. Now that he had made maximum use of the “bad statement” we had prepared in advance, Clinton said, it was time to deploy the good one. ..Clinton took a cat nap on a sofa in a small study off the main entryway while Bruce, Sandy, Rick, and I cobbled together a new version of the “good statement,” incorporating some of the Pakistani language from the paper that Sharif had claimed was in play between him and Vajpayee. But the key sentence in the new document was ours, not his, and it would nail the one thing we had to get out of the talks: “The prime minister has agreed to take concrete and immediate steps for the restoration of the Line of Control.” The paper called for a cease-fire but only after the Pakistanis were back on their side of the line. It reaffirmed Clinton’s longstanding plan to visit South Asia.

The meeting came quickly to a happy and friendly end, at least on Clinton’s part.

unquote

WHICH part of this sounds like Vajpayee appealing to the US for a bail-out, Windus? Or was this doctored by R&W?


Keep this link handy.. Am sure that claim will pop up in my threads..
 
.
@Abu Zolfiqar

In your imaginary world??? Stop spreading fiction and lies. 2 Migs shot down indeed! Mig 21 was and Mi 17 that's it!

And for your claims ..... You vacated the fresh positions you had taken as also some peaks which we did not have since BSF lost them in 1983-85 period..

believe whatever you want, little man.....doesnt change the facts about a conflict i am very familiar with. I doubt you were even a teenager when it took place, go have some gau-sharbat and cool off a lil

One Indian MiG was shot down. There was no overflight of Azad Kashmir at any time.

both were shot down....the story of "technical fault" or "flameout" is just indian peddled rubbish. We kept the remains of both aircrafts (what's left of them)

the aforementioned chopper was also shot down by our ack ack fire
 
.
believe whatever you want, little man.....doesnt change the facts about a conflict i am very familiar with. I doubt you were even a teenager when it took place, go have some gau-sharbat and cool off a lil

If you are familiar with the details, then you are deliberately falsifying them. I repeat: One (1) MiG, a MiG21, was shot down; this had nothing to do with overflight of Azad Kashmir, and no such overflight took place. If you insist on two MiGs, and if you claim that the shooting down of either took place because of infiltration of Pakistani air space over Azad Kashmir, we will know what to think of you, big man.
 
.
:omghaha::omghaha::rofl::enjoy::lol: Lol like JF17 could have made a difference. Thank God JF17 was not there at that time else we would have lost Kargil:(

sure as hell didnt need JF-17 Thunder to cause the problem for indian army of shortages of coffins for the piles of indian corpses we left behind
 
.
believe whatever you want, little man.....doesnt change the facts about a conflict i am very familiar with. I doubt you were even a teenager when it took place, go have some gau-sharbat and cool off a lil



both were shot down....the story of "technical fault" or "flameout" is just indian peddled rubbish. We kept the remains of both aircrafts (what's left of them)

the aforementioned chopper was also shot down by our ack ack fire

Analysis by the PAF showed that the MiG27 crashed due to engine failure due to gunfire-related gas ingestion. Presumably they know a little more than you do. Unless the PAF is guilty of Indian peddled rubbish.

Want the passage? I hate to rub people's faces in their own mistakes, but in your case, I'd be happy to make an exception.

As far as ack ack fire is concerned, if you define a Stinger as ack ack fire, go ahead and define it that way.
 
.
If you are familiar with the details, then you are deliberately falsifying them. I repeat: One (1) MiG, a MiG21, was shot down; this had nothing to do with overflight of Azad Kashmir, and no such overflight took place. If you insist on two MiGs, and if you claim that the shooting down of either took place because of infiltration of Pakistani air space over Azad Kashmir, we will know what to think of you, big man.

the remains of both were found 7-10 km inside Pakistani territory, dummy ....so it's rather irrelevant
 
.
sure as hell didnt need JF-17 Thunder to cause the problem for indian army of shortages of coffins for the piles of indian corpses we left behind

True.

Fortunately your casualties caused no such problems. We buried them on the battlefield, because their own units denied them a military burial.

the remains of both were found 7-10 km inside Pakistani territory, dummy ....so it's rather irrelevant

Yes, yes, you know lots of hot words, but it still isn't Azad Kashmir, and as for being found 7 to 10 kms inside Pakistani territory, do you expect planes to stop still in mid-air and drop where they were when they were hit?

You are in a purple patch today, aren't you?
 
.
Analysis by the PAF showed that the MiG27 crashed due to engine failure due to gunfire-related gas ingestion. Presumably they know a little more than you do. Unless the PAF is guilty of Indian peddled rubbish.

Want the passage? I hate to rub people's faces in their own mistakes, but in your case, I'd be happy to make an exception.

As far as ack ack fire is concerned, if you define a Stinger as ack ack fire, go ahead and define it that way.

rub people's faces? and who are you exactly? :laugh:

i dont require lectures from some chai wala from across the border
 
.
rub people's faces? and who are you exactly? :laugh:

i dont require lectures from some chai wala from across the border

On this post, I happen to be the chap correcting your ignorance of the basic facts. If you think smileys reduce your public humiliation, feel free to use as many as salve your hurt ego. :azn:
 
.

Latest posts

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom