What makes a good daughter-in-law

[Divergent]

No most fatwaz and ruiling say that Muslim man is not required the consent and permission from first wife for second marriage
https://islamqa.info/en/p61
And i would say that you are either naive or very young to understand this. A poor guy earing 150 or 200 rupees a day cannot afford to get a seperate house after marriage so such people on low income have no option but to live together under one roof with either parent or sibling. I bet you have no clue about how much money you needed to buy a land and build one or two bedroom house..since you are too young and never been in practical life so you have no clue of rent and others expenses as well..
If all girls from poor families demand to live seprate after marriage then i bet most of them will remain singles for rest of their lives

Not really. Its more suitable option for lazy guy or guy on low income to have a working wife so that she bring some money. You can not dominate those women who are economically and socially independent. Men dominance comes with more roles and responsibilities in our culture..there will be no issue of dominance if boht share equal roles and responsibilities as happening in west

Islamically there has to be exceptions, ideally it is better and advised to ask and sought permission alongside clearly stating being FAIR and JUST.

You buy one a washing machine? - make sure you buy the other one too.

One has a flat? - ensure the other one does too.

Take one out? - make sure you do to the other one too.

- brought one a gift? - make sure you do for the other one too.

- paying school fees from first Marriage? Make sure you do for others too.

- Spending some time with first one? Make sure you do with other too.

- Going on holiday with one wife? Make sure you take the other too.

Realistically any sensible man admits it's already a handful to maintain one wife let alone two. So if you can't deliver justice, equality and fairness. Keep away otherwise it is committing an offence and wrong.

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

Islamically there has to be exceptions, ideally it is better and advised to ask and sought permission alongside clearly stating being FAIR and JUST.

You buy one a washing machine? - make sure you buy the other one too.

One has a flat? - ensure the other one does too.

Take one out? - make sure you do to the other one too.

- brought one a gift? - make sure you do for the other one too.

- paying school fees from first Marriage? Make sure you do for others too.

- Spending some time with first one? Make sure you do with other too.

- Going on holiday with one wife? Make sure you take the other too.

Realistically any sensible man admits it's already a handful to maintain one wife let alone two. So if you can't deliver justice, equality and fairness. Keep away otherwise it is committing an offence and wrong.

I was talking about polygamy in different context.. Its common in middle east
I can deliver justice and can make all beautiful wives happy lol
Abosulte equality and fairness is impossible ..even parent like some children more than others depend on their nature ..equality and fairness here mean spending equal time with them and fulfill all your responsibilities toward them

 

[Hell hound]

Bigarne ki umar me sudharne chale ha

Allah bachaye

wasey bigarna bhi zindgi ka zarori hisa hota hay

 

[M. Sarmad]

No most fatwaz and ruiling say that Muslim man is not required the consent and permission from first wife for second marriage
https://islamqa.info/en/p61

Bro, forget what these Mullahs have to say. Under the 1961 Muslim Family Laws Ordinance of Islamic Republic of Pakistan a prior permission of Arbitration Council (consisting of the Chairman and representative of each of the parties) is mandatory for second marriage and failing to do so could result in a prison time (of up to 1 year) and heavy fine.

Section 6 (1) of the ordinance reads as:

No man, during the subsistence of an existing marriage, shall, except with the previous permission in writing of the Arbitration Council, contract another marriage, nor shall any such marriage contracted without such permission be registered under this Ordinance.


It is interesting to note that when this law was enacted in 1961, Islamic scholars like Maududi, Noorani and Mufti Mahmud were active politicians. And None of them objected ..

While listening to petitions filed against 1961 Muslim Family Ordinance Law by some Mullahs, the Federal Shariat Court was pleased to set aside the Report of the Council of Islamic Ideology recommending that provisions against polygamy be further strengthened in Section 6 of the Muslim Family Law Ordinance.


So, let's ignore what Mullahs have to say, Pakistani Law requires 'a prior permission' for second marriage and the Federal Shariat Court of Pakistan has upheld this law as perfectly Islamic. Case closed.

ideally it is better and advised to ask and sought permission ...

It is not just "advised", a permission (in writing) is required by the Islamic law of our country

 

[M. Sarmad]

Not really. Its more suitable option for lazy guy or guy on low income to have a working wife so that she bring some money. You can not dominate those women who are economically and socially independent. Men dominance comes with more roles and responsibilities in our culture..there will be no issue of dominance if boht share equal roles and responsibilities as happening in west

Bro, I was talking about 'modern women with forward thinking', not 'working women'. As for working women, in Pakistan there is a very little participation of women in the national workforce. Female labor force participation in Pakistan, at 25%, is well below rates for countries with similar income levels. Even among women with high levels of education, labor force participation lags only around: 25% of women with a university degree in Pakistan are working. Almost 40% of women who are not working report that the main reason for this is that male family members do not permit them to work outside the home.

https://www.adb.org/sites/default/f...female-labor-force-participation-pakistan.pdf

 

[hassamun]

A South Asian Mother-in-Law's ideal Daughter-in-Law is a Doctor who can make circle Rotis...This is a joke which is true to a certain extent and has been shared plenty of times...

 

[Manama]

No most fatwaz and ruiling say that Muslim man is not required the consent and permission from first wife for second marriage

Do you not know about the marriage between Fatima ra and Ali ra. A woman during nikah can ask for stuff, thats how people nowadays get property etc, but she can add that she wants her husband to not marry a second wife as long as she is married to him.
Its a right given to a woman getting married, by God.

-Do you have any evidence, which states specifically that joint family systems are haram/unreligious? BTW, I also know of religious arguments against JF systems, but to call it unreligious/ haram, you would have to bring some very clear and specific evidence to do that and there are many scholars that state it is perfectly fine provided certain conditions are met with respect of hijab/ modesty etc.

It is a right of a married couple to have a separate home, a right given by God. Doesn't our own religion say separate a kid first his bed, his room and then his home? Show me one example in history aka Prophets or sahabah etc who lived with their parents after marriage? When it comes to our on prophet, he even kept all his wives separate

- As far as Joint family systems being retarded .. Just because something doesn't appeal to you its retarded? In addition, YOU are a minority. The majority(atleast in Pakistan) find it really useful because of the economic benefits that it provides. Now don't get me wrong, I actually get the cons of joint family system as well, but to deny the very existence of some pros ... ignorant is the word that comes to mind.

thats called laziness, i can't support my family, better leech on other family members smh, Ofcourse i am a minority but not to that extent which you think of, people who still to move on from their backwardness

-Her individuality? Guess what ... You women yourself want the man to be the one responsible for you i.e. take care of you, provide stable financial support etc. i.e. you want the man to fulfill his gender role. But fulfilling your gender role diminishes your individuality? and to think you gals are the ones talking 'hypocrisy' ...

no, there is a thing called having your own home, a place where i can't even roam freely wearing whatever i want, that kills my individuality, where i have to follow rules set by someone for stupid reasons kills my individuality, where i cant be myself so as to appear the perfect daughter in law kills my individuality, where im a maid not a wife.

-Living as an adult with your parents is something one should be ashamed of? Not really, the fact that you leave the people alone when they need you and are too proud to ask for help ... the people who raised you from the time you couldn't get a fly off from the top of your nose ....leaving those people at their time of need should be something that brings shame to you, but I guess, throwing your parents in to old houses and rationalizing it as for the better because they have 'better care' is the way to go for the next generation.

lmao you can take care of your parents without leeching onto them

-Lastly, since you advocate for a total removal of the joint family system, what is the alternative that you propose that fulfills/ satisfies the economic, cultural and religious realities of our country, in place of the joint family system .. In fact do you have any alternative to begin with cuz it would be an embarrassment if you don't ....after all this big tirade of yours ..
How about this ... Try bringing up one societal system that works, keeping in mind these variables.

• Nearly 40-50% of the population can be classified as poor based on the metric you take.
• Literacy rate is around 58%. As of 2007 only 6% of the population graduated from universities. Thats 9% male population and 3.5% female population. Keep in mind that a fresh uni grad (assuming a bachelors degree) is hired at around 20-35K at best.
• The average age of marriage is around 22-24 years old.
• The average cost of living is based on the data by numbeo.com is around Rs. 43,622 per month. That's if you only include utilities (gas, water, electricity, internet etc.), child care and rent for a 1 bedroom apartment. I didn't even include the essentials, transportation, leisure and clothing costs etc. not to mention the sudden hospital bill that pops up from time to time.
• So squeeze all of those costs in a workable societal system that can replace the existing one, maybe then we can talk.

more excuses, live alone, support yourself

 

[I.R.A]

@Azlan Haider

Polygamy was the need of the time back then, it was permitted and not ordered.

The permission and practice depends on overall gender statistics, and living standards of a society, the number of men vs women, the number of helpless or widowed women and orphaned children in a society. Second back then it was mostly men who brought bread and butter to table now this may not be the case everywhere.

Pakistani men would prefer to marry four virgins only (that too tested and trialed any defect the poor woman may be heading back to her parent's home) ............ would they marry some woman who is 20 years older than them? It is also a sunnah after all...............

 

[Ocean]

I never said they don't give them that right, realistically you yourself know that won't settle easy and not end up being a lullaby but more like metal music gone wrong.

@Azlan Haider @Ocean @prashantazazel made same points but I don't see you countering them? But it's offensive when a female says the same thing which already proves her opinion or view based on herself is considered inappropriate?

And to answer your question, if a female has that and she's okay with it fine.

Lastly it's his parents and his duty. Not hers. If she does do it that's nice of her but if not she's not committing any wrong.

I have seen abdulbarijans comments in many thead. The guy is highly sexist. I dont know what is his expertise for which he holds think tank title but all ihave ever seen him doing is loitering around in men vs women issues threads and making "going around around around in circle" posts with sexist arguments. All i feel he was badly oppressed by some khatoon and he is taking revenge on women that post on this forum.

Anyways such people are not my headache and i would not waste an iota of my time over them in this month of ramadan, when at times you are already tired from work and exhausted. And if his ego tells him how we have badly lost to him in debate hence we are running away from arguing any further , tau chalo koi baat nahi yehi samajh lo. Logon ki choti choti khushian kon cheenay,

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

Bro, forget what these Mullahs have to say. Under the 1961 Muslim Family Laws Ordinance of Islamic Republic of Pakistan a prior permission of Arbitration Council (consisting of the Chairman and representative of each of the parties) is mandatory for second marriage and failing to do so could result in a prison time (of up to 1 year) and heavy fine.

Section 6 (1) of the ordinance reads as:

No man, during the subsistence of an existing marriage, shall, except with the previous permission in writing of the Arbitration Council, contract another marriage, nor shall any such marriage contracted without such permission be registered under this Ordinance.


It is interesting to note that when this law was enacted in 1961, Islamic scholars like Maududi, Noorani and Mufti Mahmud were active politicians. And None of them objected ..

While listening to petitions filed against 1961 Muslim Family Ordinance Law by some Mullahs, the Federal Shariat Court was pleased to set aside the Report of the Council of Islamic Ideology recommending that provisions against polygamy be further strengthened in Section 6 of the Muslim Family Law Ordinance.


So, let's ignore what Mullahs have to say, Pakistani Law requires 'a prior permission' for second marriage and the Federal Shariat Court of Pakistan has upheld this law as perfectly Islamic. Case closed.



It is not just "advised", a permission (in writing) is required by the Islamic law of our country

Bro this law was also made by Pakistani Mullah so opinion of Mullahs will matter whenever we will talk about polygamy and Islamic republic also allow riba but that dont mean that riba will becime legal as per Islamic scripture because Pakistani state allow it.we just pick whatever suit us but terms and condition of polygamy very clear in Quran
Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 4 Surah Nisaa verse 3:

If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice: two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them) then only one or (a captive) that your right hands possess. That will be more suitable to prevent you from doing injustice


The one and only condition Allah Subhanah has laid upon the believers who wish to exercise their lawful option of marrying more than one wife is that they are absolutely just amongst their wives in the distribution of their time and their resources amongst them. There is absolutely nothing in the Quran nor in the authentic Sunnah which stipulates or puts a condition that a believer needs the prior permission or consent of his first wife before he marries for a second or third or fourth) time.

It is recorded in history that the Prophet (saws) and most of his noble companions had more than one wife; and there is absolutely no evidence that they sought the permission of their first wife to marry for a second (or the third or the fourth) time!

Do you not know about the marriage between Fatima ra and Ali ra. A woman during nikah can ask for stuff, thats how people nowadays get property etc, but she can add that she wants her husband to not marry a second wife as long as she is married to him.
Its a right given to a woman getting married, by God.

Adding certain terms and conditions in nikkah nama is different thing

 

[Manama]

Bro this law was also made by Pakistani Mullah so opinion of Mullahs will matter whenever we will talk about polygamy and Islamic republic also allow riba but that dont mean that riba will becime legal as per Islamic scripture because Pakistani state allow it.we just pick whatever suit us but terms and condition of polygamy very clear in Quran
Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 4 Surah Nisaa verse 3:

If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice: two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them) then only one or (a captive) that your right hands possess. That will be more suitable to prevent you from doing injustice


The one and only condition Allah Subhanah has laid upon the believers who wish to exercise their lawful option of marrying more than one wife is that they are absolutely just amongst their wives in the distribution of their time and their resources amongst them. There is absolutely nothing in the Quran nor in the authentic Sunnah which stipulates or puts a condition that a believer needs the prior permission or consent of his first wife before he marries for a second or third or fourth) time.

It is recorded in history that the Prophet (saws) and most of his noble companions had more than one wife; and there is absolutely no evidence that they sought the permission of their first wife to marry for a second (or the third or the fourth) time!


Adding certain terms and conditions in nikkah nama is different thing

same thing, if i don't want my husband to marry again he can't do it

 

[abdulbarijan]

It is a right of a married couple to have a separate home, a right given by God. Doesn't our own religion say separate a kid first his bed, his room and then his home? Show me one example in history aka Prophets or sahabah etc who lived with their parents after marriage? When it comes to our on prophet, he even kept all his wives separate

You ain't dodging this one child, YOU claimed something was unreligious/haram, YOU have to prove it, that means you go back, get some evidence that explicitly, specifically and outright calls joint family system haram.

thats called laziness, i can't support my family, better leech on other family members smh, Ofcourse i am a minority but not to that extent which you think of, people who still to move on from their backwardness

Laziness? ... This is why I agree with the statement made before that you shouldn't be on this thread. Like I said near 50% of the population is living under poverty based on the metric one uses. When you are poor, you are going to need every cost advantage you can get. It's not leeching off, when the entire family is in the same class and looks out for each other in a joint family by dramatically reducing their expenses. You, someone who hasn't even begun earning, much less worry about expenses ... how can you know what it is like to feel the pressure of an average mazdoor, who has to work like a mad man, otherwise him and his family can go hungry... The lack of empathy for such people from someone who claims " I see the suffering yada yada" is appalling.

no, there is a thing called having your own home, a place where i can't even roam freely wearing whatever i want, that kills my individuality, where i have to follow rules set by someone for stupid reasons kills my individuality, where i cant be myself so as to appear the perfect daughter in law kills my individuality, where im a maid not a wife.

Again, if your traditional gender role and how it's evolved culturally, if that kills your individuality, then simply say No to the gender role system. The catch though, is that there is no gender role responsibilities for the man either. Let everything be equal, get your own place, pay every expense 50-50, do household chores 50-50 ... although this would be quite a headache because of the limitations I've listed earlier, and the people following a similar system have a divorce rate of over 50% ... Not to mention your living standard will probably decline as well...

lmao you can take care of your parents without leeching onto them

Do you know that 30-40% of all deaths in Pakistan are due to cardiovascular diseases? With that said, do you know how quickly you have to transport patients to the hospital if there is a heart event? Let's just say, your ambulance services ain't cutting it. I suppose that should suffice.

more excuses, live alone, support yourself

Excuses? You are the one that talked a big game about how joint family system should be abolished, so YOU SUGGEST ... what's the replacement ... where is your 'big solution' that satisfies all the economic, religious and cultural realities of the country. It's easy to say abolish this abolish that ... but where is YOUR SOLUTION? Absent like your reasoning I suppose?

BTW, if your 'big solution' is "live alone and support yourself" .. thats the suggestion for 50% of the population, which btw is around 90+ million people. Out of those 90+ million people around 60% fall in their youth, so thats around 54+ million people (twice the entire population of Australia) whom your advising ... "Live alone, support yourself" ... or "Get a girlfriend" instead of a developed solution (joint family) already in place...

BTW, here is a little reality pill for ya, after 30, the same girlfriends in the west also go out, who just a few years ago "didn't need no man!", who think that marriage is just a "piece of paper" ... the same independent women go out and search for husband material, but they struggle, because husband material is not out there looking for used up slobs who just woke up one day and decided to be a "classy woman!!" i.e. the stage before such women ultimately evolve in to the 'cat lady from across the street' ...

 

[abdulbarijan]

Joint families aren't great if there's more than one son.
If you don't mind me asking, are you the only son?

Yes, I do mind answering personal questions on a public forum. As far as your post goes, it depends on the conditions, the environment of the household, and how the place is distributed among different families. But then again, the economic gains in terms of fulfilling the needs and wants of none other than your family is one very big fat reason to go for joint families and I say that realizing that there are many cons to the system as well.

But like I've said to your friend @Manama before, you bring a suitable replacement that satisfies the economic, cultural and religious realities, and I've no problem accepting that system. The system you yourself proposed is literally the joint family system all over again until a natural split at the end, while your friend keeps up with her "abolish the joint family system" while proposing literally zero solutions for 50% of the population. That btw is 'not much' just 90+ million people, 60% of which fall in the category of young, i.e. 54+ million young people (that btw, is twice of the entire population of Australia) which are left with nothing, if you seriously think through your friend's arguments.

I have seen abdulbarijans comments in many thead. The guy is highly sexist. I dont know what is his expertise for which he holds think tank title but all i have ever seen him doing is loitering around in men vs women issues threads and making "going around around around in circle" posts with sexist arguments. All i feel he was badly oppressed by some khatoon and he is taking revenge on women that post on this forum.

Anyways such people are not my headache and i would not waste an iota of my time over them in this month of ramadan, when at times you are already tired from work and exhausted. And if his ego tells him how we have badly lost to him in debate hence we are running away from arguing any further , tau chalo koi baat nahi yehi samajh lo. Logon ki choti choti khushian kon cheenay,

For someone who wouldn't want to waste an "iota of time" on me, you probably wasted over 5 minutes writing these two paras. If you have a problem with what I write or the ideas that I present, you have a keyboard and a brain, go ahead and write your mind. In the market place of ideas, let the better idea win. The fact that you'd rather assume things about me or personally attack me like you did, says alot more about you than it does about me.

 

[Ocean]

bhai jan/bahen ji mujhay kisi kay akelay rehnay say koi issue nahi hay main to khud ek liberal or live let live type banda hon.mujhay masla @Manama ki us bat say ay kay ek system ko jo kay more than 50 % log pakistan main use kartey han or us main khush bhi hain us ko abolish kar do.bhai app ko nahi pasand app na karo esy mahol main shadi jo karna chata hay usay karney do.yeah abolish kar kay apni mentality doson pay force karney wala kam ghalat hay.mera mana hay jo kam jab tak kisi ko nuksan nahi dey raha usey nahi cherna chaey.kyu kay har kisi ki apni life hay apni choice hay app ko ya app ki behan ko husband ki family kay sath rehna hay to raho nahi rehna na raho mujhay us say koi issue nahi but agar main ya koi or apni family kay sath rehna chahta hon to app ko is say koi masla nahi hona chaye or na hi degrade karney ki zarorat hay.

I am sorry if my words offended you. I had totally understood the intention of your previous post, but why i disagreed was because not everything is that black and white in life as you said Joint family nahi pasand tau na karo , pasand hai tau karlo.
You said 50pc of our households live in jointfamily systems.

Trust me brother not even 5 pc would willfully live in that system. Many do due to financial compulsions, respect for elders, inability to purchase or rent a new house, cultural reasons, societal pressure log kya kahain gay maa baap ko chor diya and so on for many excuses, if given a choice then 98 pc of our joint family system people would go nuclear.

Secondly , you said shadi aisi jaga na karo. Again there are so many facets to it.

1.) have you lived in pakistan, have you seen how our women find it hard to get decent proposals? Even amongst my relatives i have seen men getting proposals "offered" from well off girls family alongwith perks , only because logon ko rishton ki kami ka khauf hota hai. Tell me bro in such scenario except for those gurls who have solid financial background or have supportive father or brothers who are ready to put their foot down and find a rishta per their preferences who else will reject proposals over the excuse of joint family system? They are forced to accept the system.

2. Then again as you said dont marry in joint family, then many girls are willing to be a part of huge family but post marriage issues surface , it is then people realize a seperate house is needed.

I didnt agree with a stern tone in your post , nahi pasand na karo , pasand hai tau karo. Man if it was so easy why would you see so many marital issues in Pakistan?
I totally understand there are situations where we cant get seperate houses but when we could afford we should go ahead. Plus even in a joint family system unless someone is doing things out of norm , other members should not interfere into others matters.

I know a couple who got married two three years back, he is my aunts son , since the early days of his marriage his wife started demanding a seperate house. The guys father was earning well, He too was earning well and could give a seperate home, but he refused. Uski biwi say bhi sabar nahi hua. Khair that guy is too attached with his mother to get a seperate hosue plus his father fell ill and passed away. Anyways ,the girl left his house and set the demand divorce ya seperate house. He left her....! They are divorced now. When his father was alive i felt her demand is not wrong but after his death i felt she could compromise a little. But then i dont know what that guy did was right or wrong.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Bro this law was also made by Pakistani Mullah so opinion of Mullahs will matter whenever we will talk about polygamy and Islamic republic ....

No bro, this law was not made by Mullahs. In August of 1955, the government appointed a seven-member Commission to study the existing laws of marriage, divorce, and family maintenance and to make recommendations for reform. The Commission was composed of six Modernists (three men and three women) and one Traditionalist religious scholar, Maulana lhteshamul Haq. The Commission composed a questionnaire, issued thousands to the public, and urged citizens to respond in order that the Commission might fashion its recommendations in accordance with public opinion.

The Commission specifically claimed in its Report that independent legal reasoning, or Ijtihad, and the subsequent interpretation and application of family laws while formerly limited to Mujtahids, was in fact an endeavor that any secular judge could participate in. Indeed, any man or woman might be able to engage in ljtihad


The recommendations were submitted by the Commission in 1956, but it was only in 1961 that the Family Ordinance Law was finally enacted under the rule of Ayub Khan who wanted to effect social change and bring modernism through legislation.