What makes a good daughter-in-law

[El Sidd]

wasey bigarna bhi zindgi ka zarori hisa hota hay

sabse zarori...
warna sudharnay me maza nahi ata

 

[Ocean]

Depends on the conditions, the environment of the household, and how the place is distributed among different families. But then again, the economic gains in terms of fulfilling the needs and wants of none other than your family is one very big fat reason to go for joint families and I say that realizing that there are many cons to the system as well.

But like I've said to your friend @Manama before, you bring a suitable replacement that satisfies the economic, cultural and religious realities, and I've no problem accepting that system.


For someone who wouldn't want to waste an "iota of time" on me, you probably wasted over 5 minutes writing these two paras. If you have a problem with what I write or the ideas that I present, you have a keyboard and a brain, go ahead and write your mind. In the market place of ideas, let the better idea win. The fact that you'd rather assume things about me or personally attack me like you did, says alot more about you and our ideas, than me.

Five minutes nahi 15-20 minutes lagay hon gay post likhnay may ,ab ap itnay time kay tau mustahiq hain bhai sahab.
Please dont take it that post as personal attack. Your arguments are very repetitive at times and lacking substance.

As of you mentioning marketplace seems like you are a marketing wala banda. Loved marketing but lacked confidence in giving presentations before class. always had confidence and self esteem issues There are days when i wake up and tell myself i could have conquered the world had i pursued marketing major.

 

[El Sidd]

shizz HAS hit the ceiling here while i was away in this thread.

why is everyone dragging religion into it.

talk about the law and the practical solutions to the obvious problems we have in our society.
its a contractual agreement between two adults. you can put anything you want from noogies to boogies in there.

as far as living conditions go. if two people are committed they can work through their problems no matter what. there is a legal binding there. if small things matter so much then people shouldnt really bother with the marriage thing and just get laid by other means to quench their thirst. why tarnish the sanctity of the word 'marriage' over how round the roti should be or farting Mercedes or itchy backs.

rise above the superficial witch hunts and boogie monsters. be human for the love of socks

 

[M. Sarmad]

If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice: two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them) then only one or (a captive) that your right hands possess. That will be more suitable to prevent you from doing injustice


The one and only condition Allah Subhanah has laid upon the believers who wish to exercise their lawful option of marrying more than one wife is that they are absolutely just amongst their wives in the distribution of their time and their resources amongst them. There is absolutely nothing in the Quran nor in the authentic Sunnah which stipulates or puts a condition that a believer needs the prior permission or consent of his first wife before he marries for a second or third or fourth) time.

It is recorded in history that the Prophet (saws) and most of his noble companions had more than one wife; and there is absolutely no evidence that they sought the permission of their first wife to marry for a second (or the third or the fourth) time!

The Muslim Family Ordinance Law 1961 is not in contradiction with the Holy Qur'an as the Holy Qur'an does not prohibit seeking permission (from the council) for second (or subsequent) marriage. Nor does the Holy Qur'an forbid to delegate the power of divorce to wife, or curtail Husband's power of divorce (as is legal under Muslim Family Ordinance of 1961)

@Azlan Haider

Polygamy was the need of the time back then, it was permitted and not ordered.

The permission and practice depends on overall gender statistics, and living standards of a society, the number of men vs women, the number of helpless or widowed women and orphaned children in a society. Second back then it was mostly men who brought bread and butter to table now this may not be the case everywhere.

Pakistani men would prefer to marry four virgins only (that too tested and trialed any defect the poor woman may be heading back to her parent's home) ............ would they marry some woman who is 20 years older than them? It is also a sunnah after all...............

Yes, the Holy Qur'an does not order men to marry more than one woman, polygamy is allowed in exceptional cases only and is discouraged generally. Qur'an strongly encourages monogamy (the only religious text to do so) ... Some Muslim countries have already banned polygamy. Now, is this ban inconsistent with the fundamental Islamic teachings ? .. While the orthodox Muslims may argue otherwise, A little understanding of Quranic teachings and Islamic history is enough to conclude that there is nothing wrong with this ban .

For example, Muslim countries banned slavery in mid twentieth century when "most Muslim scholars" found the practice "inconsistent with Quranic morality" .. The idea that Islam only tolerated slavery due to necessity can be applied here as well. When polygamy is not needed any more, it can be abolished.

 

[footmarks]

If a holy book says something is forbidden, it is forbidden, no questions asked. However, if something is not forbidden, nothing stops us from forbidding it based on changed realities of today.

I see no point in polygamy anymore. We are not kings of yore to afford a harem. Ek sambhaal lein wahi kaafi hai

 

[abdulbarijan]

Five minutes nahi 15-20 minutes lagay hon gay post likhnay may ,ab ap itnay time kay tau mustahiq hain bhai sahab.
Please dont take it that post as personal attack. Your arguments are very repetitive at times and lacking substance.

As of you mentioning marketplace seems like you are a marketing wala banda. Loved marketing but lacked confidence in giving presentations before class. always had confidence and self esteem issues There are days when i wake up and tell myself i could have conquered the world had i pursued marketing major.

Yeah ofcourse .... you just called me sexist, you called someone in my upbringing oppressive and an abuser, then you made remarks about how I'm exacting revenge because of that, then you insinuate that I'm not exactly worthy of the title given to me .. Ofcourse ... foolish me ... how are any of the following 'personal attacks' ...

The guy is highly sexist. I dont know what is his expertise for which he holds think tank title but all ihave ever seen him doing is loitering around in men vs women issues threads and making "going around around around in circle" posts with sexist arguments. All i feel he was badly oppressed by some khatoon and he is taking revenge on women that post on this forum.

As far as my posts being repetitive, they have to be, especially when the other side continuously go in tangents, and not answer the questions or points posed. Lastly, if you have any valid points that contest the ones that I made, by all means go ahead and make your position clear and present your ideas. If you just want to continue this drivel then don't bother quoting me again.

 

[Ocean]

Yeah ofcourse .... you just called me sexist, you called someone in my upbringing oppressive and an abuser, then you made remarks about how I'm exacting revenge because of that, then you insinuate that I'm not exactly worthy of the title given to me .. Ofcourse ... foolish me ... how are any of these 'personal attacks' ...

As far as my posts being repetitive, they have to be, especially when the other side continuously go in tangents, and not answer the questions or points posed. Lastly, if you have any valid points that contest the ones that I made, by all means go ahead and make your position clear and present your ideas. If you just want to continue this drivel then don't bother quoting me again.

What?......? When did i say anyone in your upbringing was oppressive? Never called anyone abuser. Abuser ka tau lafz bhi use nahi kiya
Exacting revenge because of that?
Not worthy of title?

Well i had said maybe he was oppressed by some khatoon was a reference to a girl friend or female friend and that too was a sarcastic sort of comment.
Where on earth and how on earth you took it to upbringing?. Wow. I wont point at your mom over disagreements here.

Again the revenge part was never said with this intention. When we get irritated by something we say it in this way , pata nahi kisi nay us kay saath aisa bura kia tau woh uska badla so and so say lay raha hai.

I never said you are not worthy of title, i could care less. My point was i dunno whatever is the reason for it but i have always seen you in men vs women thread.
Oh yes you are sexist. Your posts are a testament to it.
Man you are paranoid , kis baat ka kya bana diya.
You overthink a lot itna waqt kisi kay paas nahi kay itnee details may sochay aur jawab day.
Looking at your post i am sure you will tear down this current post of mine into million bits assuming billion personal attacks. Actually just carry on. I would suggest work on your attitude you will make life of your dear ones very difficult. Good luck with life.

 

[abdulbarijan]

What?......? When did i say anyone in your upbringing was oppressive? Never called anyone abuser. Abuser ka tau lafz bhi use nahi kiya
Exacting revenge because of that?
Not worthy of title?

Well i had said maybe he was oppressed by some khatoon was a reference to a girl friend or female friend and that too was a sarcastic sort of comment.
Where on earth and how on earth you took it to upbringing?. Wow. I wont point at your mom over disagreements here.

Again the revenge part was never said with this intention. When we get irritated by something we say it in this way , pata nahi kisi nay us kay saath aisa bura kia tau woh uska badla so and so say lay raha hai.

I never said you are not worthy of title, i could care less. My point was i dunno whatever is the reason for it but i have always seen you in men vs women thread.
Oh yes you are sexist. Your posts are a testament to it.
Man you are paranoid , kis baat ka kya bana diya.
You overthink a lot itna waqt kisi kay paas nahi kay itnee details may sochay aur jawab day.
Looking at your post i am sure you will tear down this current post of mine into million bits assuming billion personal attacks. Actually just carry on. I would suggest work on your attitude you will make life of your dear ones very difficult. Good luck with life.

Anything else? I'd appreciate an actual post with some counter points but I guess thats too much to ask...

 

[Divergent]

Yes, I do mind answering personal questions on a public forum. As far as your post goes, it depends on the conditions, the environment of the household, and how the place is distributed among different families. But then again, the economic gains in terms of fulfilling the needs and wants of none other than your family is one very big fat reason to go for joint families and I say that realizing that there are many cons to the system as well.

But like I've said to your friend @Manama before, you bring a suitable replacement that satisfies the economic, cultural and religious realities, and I've no problem accepting that system. The system you yourself proposed is literally the joint family system all over again until a natural split at the end, while your friend keeps up with her "abolish the joint family system" while proposing literally zero solutions for 50% of the population. That btw is 'not much' just 90+ million people, 60% of which fall in the category of young, i.e. 54+ million young people (that btw, is twice of the entire population of Australia) which are left with nothing, if you seriously think through your friend's arguments.

For someone who wouldn't want to waste an "iota of time" on me, you probably wasted over 5 minutes writing these two paras. If you have a problem with what I write or the ideas that I present, you have a keyboard and a brain, go ahead and write your mind. In the market place of ideas, let the better idea win. The fact that you'd rather assume things about me or personally attack me like you did, says alot more about you than it does about me.

Fair enough.

If its the 'only' son - its understandable how the parents would like to be taken care of etc - though people can still take care by having their own places and ensure visits, shopping and other duties are in place.

A joint family system consists of 'parent, siblings, their spouses and the children' - which makes it almost congested to a point it can lead to disputes and is unfair. It may be cost efficient in terms of financial terms, but based on quality of life isn't eminent. Some of the flaws range of:

(A) Financial burden (One may have to feel their contributions are more than the other member -which leads to disputes).

(B) There's always a particular trend of one dominant head whose decisions over-precede and take over the wishes of the other.

(C) Clash of opinions, which could be between the spouse and other members - all which is indignation

(D) Couple problems aren't between couples but for the rest of the household to view, there is very little privacy and any intervening can be uncalled for (unless very serious) and further escalate the situation.

(E) Excessive stress and lack of tolerance level.

(F) Old norms and values may not be new members school of thought and if challenged or done indifferently is frowned upon.

(G) Comparisons can easily be made and cause issues, e.g. One brother may want to take his Mrs on a vacation, whilst the other brother may not be able to afford it and this may lead to his Mrs feeling he isn't doing enough.
G.1) Children comparison can also be made - so and so went to this institute, so does so and so. Or couple one may not have sent their children abroad for studies whilst couple two may want to but will feel withdrawn from doing so.

(H) Couple can't make independent decisions and lead their own lives without the approval of others, this causes a lot of issues.

(I) Increased household work load pressure

(F) It really makes it miserable for most women if its permanent decision, this does NOT mean she does not like his family but merely means she is being objected and denied to a right she has or made to feel wilful defiance.

Faith allows and has given female entitlements to their own place and there is absolutely nothing wrong with her wanting so, the time length however depends and this may take a couple of years such as (2/3) etc. But ultimately one should not consider this as 'abnormal'. This is a view of Hanafi, Shaafi and Hanbali fuqaha.

Accommodation is her right even IF she hasn't stipulated this in her Nikkah and this in the long run serves the interests of the couple.

 

[Jaanbaz]

Most Pakistanis of older generation want a submissive maid/daughter in law.

 

[Verve]

Parents raise the child and meet all his requirements for 20-30 years and then he marries and due to pressure from his wife he can't look after his elderly fragile parents because she wants to move and live away for her freedom and independence.

What.A.Justice and a wonderful payback to the parents!

 

[abdulbarijan]

Fair enough.

If its the 'only' son - its understandable how the parents would like to be taken care of etc - though people can still take care by having their own places and ensure visits, shopping and other duties are in place.

A joint family system consists of 'parent, siblings, their spouses and the children' - which makes it almost congested to a point it can lead to disputes and is unfair. It may be cost efficient in terms of financial terms, but based on quality of life isn't eminent. Some of the flaws range of:

(A) Financial burden (One may have to feel their contributions are more than the other member -which leads to disputes).

(B) There's always a particular trend of one dominant head whose decisions over-precede and take over the wishes of the other.

(C) Clash of opinions, which could be between the spouse and other members - all which is indignation

(D) Couple problems aren't between couples but for the rest of the household to view, there is very little privacy and any intervening can be uncalled for (unless very serious) and further escalate the situation.

(E) Excessive stress and lack of tolerance level.

(F) Old norms and values may not be new members school of thought and if challenged or done indifferently is frowned upon.

(G) Comparisons can easily be made and cause issues, e.g. One brother may want to take his Mrs on a vacation, whilst the other brother may not be able to afford it and this may lead to his Mrs feeling he isn't doing enough.
G.1) Children comparison can also be made - so and so went to this institute, so does so and so. Or couple one may not have sent their children abroad for studies whilst couple two may want to but will feel withdrawn from doing so.

(H) Couple can't make independent decisions and lead their own lives without the approval of others, this causes a lot of issues.

(I) Increased household work load pressure

(F) It really makes it miserable for most women if its permanent decision, this does NOT mean she does not like his family but merely means she is being objected and denied to a right she has or made to feel wilful defiance.

Faith allows and has given female entitlements to their own place and there is absolutely nothing wrong with her wanting so, the time length however depends and this may take a couple of years such as (2/3) etc. But ultimately one should not consider this as 'abnormal'. This is a view of Hanafi, Shaafi and Hanbali fuqaha.

Accommodation is her right even IF she hasn't stipulated this in her Nikkah and this in the long run serves the interests of the couple.

• Coming to your criticisms, i.e. financial burden, clash of opinions, power struggle, stress,increase household work ... Don't even act like most of these problems can't occur in a nucleus family(a family with spouses and the dependent children). e.g. clash of opinions can also occur between the husband and the wife, if both the spouses are earning ... both of them can feel like their contributing more, the spouses themselves can have a power struggle where both want to be the leading decision makers, in a nucleus family the woman who has to take care of household work whilst looking after the kid can also feel like, she has no help whatsoever, hence increased household work. Bottom line .. Most of the flaws you list against joint family system can easily be listed as flaws for the very system your arguing for. Lastly, I've already stated that I am well aware of many problems that can occur in a joint family, but the positives in our culture trump the negatives.
  
  
• While your talking about all these flaws, your ignoring quite a few positives as well. In a good joint family, when one female member is ill etc. the others automatically chip in and she doesn't have to worry about the household work or the children. Similarly, as a parent or specifically as a mother, what if your baby has weird sleeping hours, how do you make that work? a joint family can do so easily. A mother who is busy as all heck doing the household work and doesn't have time to give to her children's education, the elder female cousins are the first ones to chip in and help the kid out. Your not too sure about the friends of your child and his/ her company, guess what, in a joint family you can take measures to even take care of that without much effort. In a joint family, the elders can actually make peace between the two parties if there is a big fight, they can help you with different problems based on their experience etc etc. I can go on about the pros but I guess I've made the point that the joint family has quite a few pros as well.
  
  
• Lastly, the biggest reason for joint family system is economic. I've stated alot of times before, you can't trump the system in terms of its cost effectiveness. Your facile claim that somehow the quality of life can be diminished .. You take a look at Maslow's hierarchy theory and the first thing that needs to be met to go towards the road of self actualization, is "basic needs" . Like I said, 50% of the population is living in multidimensional poverty, the only chance they have at having their basic needs met, is by cost cutting the biggest expenses that they have, and joint family system is quite adept at doing just that.

 

[Divergent]

• Coming to your criticisms, i.e. financial burden, clash of opinions, power struggle, stress,increase household work ... Don't even act like most of these problems can't occur in a nucleus family(a family with spouses and the dependent children). e.g. clash of opinions can also occur between the husband and the wife, if both the spouses are earning ... both of them can feel like their contributing more, the spouses themselves can have a power struggle where both want to be the leading decision makers, in a nucleus family the woman who has to take care of household work whilst looking after the kid can also feel like, she has no help whatsoever, hence increased household work. Bottom line .. Most of the flaws you list against joint family system can easily be listed as flaws for the very system your arguing for.
  
  
• While your talking about all these flaws, your ignoring quite a few positives as well. In a good joint family, when one female member is ill etc. the others automatically chip in and she doesn't have to worry about the household work or the children. Similarly, as a parent or specifically as a mother, what if your baby has weird sleeping hours, how do you make that work? a joint family can do so easily. A mother who is busy as all heck doing the household work and doesn't have time to give to her children's education, the elder female cousins are the first ones to chip in and help the kid out. Your not too sure about the friends of your child and his/ her company, guess what, in a joint family you can take measures to even take care of that without much effort. I can go on about the pros but I guess I've made the point that the joint family has quite a few pros as well.
  
  
• Lastly, the biggest reason for joint family system is economic. I've stated alot of times before, you can't trump the system in terms of its cost effectiveness. Your facile claim that somehow the quality of life can be diminished .. You take a look at Maslow's hierarchy theory and the first thing that needs to be met to go towards the road of self actualization, is "basic needs" . Like I said, 50% of the population is living in multidimensional poverty, the only chance they have at having their basic needs met, is by cost cutting the biggest expenses that they have, and joint family system is quite adept at doing just that.
  
  
• Lastly, you guys should really stop using religious arguments. I say that, because the ONLY time you bring up religion is when it talks about YOUR RIGHTS ... What about YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES... Your the same person who was arguing against @Verve that it's right if the husband buys a car on interest, if the wife demands. Did you forget what the religion says against interest? Let's take your friend @Manama She argued that "should a woman go through the hell of getting married, be a baby maker and a thing to bang every night" ... Did you forget your religious teachings on what happens when a husband desires his wife, but she rejects him without any sound reasoning? Did you forget the hadith regarding increasing the size of the muslim ummah? Did you forget your responsibility in terms of obedience to your husband ...? Aren't you the same person who opened up a thread regarding how muslim women should willingly drop their hijabs? Heck, @Hell hound 's arguments usually align towards the left/progressive quadrant of the political sphere, and even he noticed you guys doing this. Bottom line, based on your arguments, it seems like, to you guys, religion is just a card that you can play mid argument .... and the only time you play it is when you talk YOUR rights ... no body likes to bring in the religion when it comes to their responsibilities and that is true especially for you guys ...

I was pulling his leg - not my fault if you missed the sarcasm.

Your argument is Rubbish, Faith is included because Faith is misused to conduct a message that a Female HAS to stay in a joint family system and asking otherwise is 'wrong and a sin' when that is absolutely nonesense.

No. Even if they have their own house a Mother can take out time for her children and educate them, kids go to school and a Mother whose a house wife should be done with household duties and collects them, feeds them, clothes them, gets them scrubbed up and then can sit down educating her children or assisting with homework. If she's really busy, modern day kids can easily stay behind after school to get further assistance from after school clubs or facetime relevant people for assistance. It IS doable and has been done previously in the past.

Maslow's Hierarchy of needs may suggests basic needs such as 'food, shelter, sleep and warmth' - which can be done easily having your own place. But you also forgot the 'security, stability and freedom' though this may also be applicant in a joint family it has more flexibility in your own place.

In the end the reality is if you just make sure you give the heads up to a girl on what her living conditions will be, I.e. Permanent joint family system. Ultimately it's a right one should know prior to any formal and official commitment.

Dude if a joint family is your way of life hey Ho go for it! We are just giving our opinions

 

[denel]

Interesting thread.... and informative. Generally the days of extended family structures under one roof are long over. At least here we still have them in the rural communities. It is not uncommon here. However it all is a cultural value system.

Within Tswana african culture, you must pay a bride price and it is no laughing matter. A formal process. If the daughter in law to be cannot cook etc, she can be sent back and bride price must be paid back. I give kudos to the daughter in laws in my entire surrounding areas. They are just unbelievably hard working; they look after entire families. You will be unable to tell if it is the daughter bringing an elderly lady and they care they provide.

 

[RAMPAGE]

@abdulbarijan Yours sure is an interesting case. Would love to know your story.

A piece of advice: Women, just like men, come in all sorts of flavours. I suggest that you should go out and enjoy a few of those flavours. It would definitely do you good. Besides, why should it always be Abdulbarijan against all womankind? Life has more to offer than just that. Have fun man.

Interestingly, this reminds me of a funny little story Georgy Porgy by Roald Dahl. @Nilgiri